| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
RD and his racist bat collection: Discuss?  | ||
| Blake |
Am hoping for a brutally cold Winter in DC this season to help convince Mrs. Ginsberg to retire to Florida and enjoy her twilight years. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I agree with Ourdee. The goal of any deadly weapon for a civilian (i.e. non-military, non-law enforcement) is simply survival. Last resort. Civilians are not expected to get involved in situations that require deadly force, unlike police or military. Nor are we obligated. It's a judgement call for that civilian, whether they want to involve themselves, where police are paid, required, and expected to involve themselves. For a civilian, the use of deadly force should be only if that person feels their life is in imminent danger and this is the only way for them to extricate themselves from said situation. Of course, there are judgement calls - if you were legally armed and in the California nightclub a few weeks ago when the guy started shooting, would you intervene? (Kalifornia rules regarding gun ownership notwithstanding - that's another debate entirely). You aren't obligated nor expected to, but would conscience and human compassion make you take action and protect others? My only concerns about the student's situation were that we gun owners need to hold ourselves to the highest standards, so the libtards don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to attacking us for choosing to own. Take every precaution necessary. The article doesn't call into question the ousted student's actions...but if I could pick those things out (and I'm on HER side), someone on the liberal side could easily draw the same conclusions, and add to the arguments against legal firearm ownership for citizens. Unfortunately, "careless" can be just as deadly as overt aggression. We all know this - we just need to act accordingly. That said...I have a YUGE old bank firesafe. It probably weighs over 1,000 lbs.  Anyone know structural load ratings for home flooring? I'm thinking of bringing it in from the garage, and putting it to use since I've disassembled and rebuilt the mech, figured out the combination, and cleaned it up. I think an exterior corner of my living room would work, both structurally and aesthetically. 2x10 joists, 14" centers, 3/4" ply subfloor (not OSB) with 5" (probably 1/2" thick, possibly 3/4" - he overbuilt everything here) oak flooring. Any guesses? Safe sits on four steel wheels - four strong pressure points. | ||
| Tootal |
The point is just that "the right to keep and bear" literally means "the right to possess and carry", so the concealment issue is not necessarily so constitutionally guaranteed as some believe. If the Constitution guarantees the right to possess and carry then carrying concealed should not be a problem. It's states to bear or carry but it surely doesn't say how to carry it. It's about having the God given right to self defense. I don't understand your belief that there's a difference. | ||
| Ratbuell |
That's the devil's advocate perspective - it doesn't specifically spell out "concealed". Nor, however, does it specifically spell out "open". Lawyers and liberals could use a "surprise attack" argument against concealed carry, to which my answer would be "OK, I'll carry open". Drawback to that is, you become the first target in a situation... Sorry. I learned to play chess when I was 5. Learn your opponent's moves and learn to predict 4, 5, 6 moves ahead and you stand a better chance at defending your position and winning the match. I firmly believe in 2A, so I make it a point to also know and understand (and preempt) the opposing arguments. If I know the tactics you want to use to disarm me...I can better prepare, and make sure you never see me make any of the mistakes you want me to make, as an excuse to say "see??? nobody should be allowed, because of what he just did..." | ||
| Aesquire |
Two points. The police are NOT obligated to defend you or anyone else. Supreme court decision from a case where a women called the police to protect her from an ex boyfriend, had a restraining order, and was murdered while police blew her off. Civilians are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves AND OTHERS, from what is perceived as life threatening danger. That's nearly Jusuit in it's interpretation, with "reasonable people would perceive the threat" to CYA. (Sin is intent) Thus you have zero, to a very uncertain obligation to help others, but are allowed to kill to protect others if you have reason to believe a deadly threat exists. You can see, perhaps, my anger at idiots and evil men insisting that stoning, a common method of torture murder execution, isn't "deadly force" in some famous cases, for example, the invasion caravan today & a case from the Rodney King riots in LA. So, yes, you are allowed to shoot a rampage murderer, to cut short his suicide. Or a thug threatening others or yourself. Appeals to emotions often steal that God given right to self defense. The case of a man on the NY subway who shot iirc, 6 gang members who mugged him, and by his testimony, threatened to track him down & murder his whole family in revenge for his "crime" of resistance, ( a common tactic of gangs) was turned into a "racist hate crime" by the lawyers and press. I can't say for certain he was right, but in that specific circumstance, I might have done the same. Honor the threat, not pretend to live in lotus land. The philosophical question is, I believe, best addressed in a comic book  Wolverine had a line. Iirc, "when you open the door to violence, what comes through the door is your responsibility". Bless Stan Lee for a few of the most profound truths in modern literature. That's a warning to all involved. As many fathers have said, in real life, "you never start a fight, but you'd better finish it". | ||
| Chauly |
Joe, The big thing to worry about is that the heavy load wants to shear the joists at the sill they rest on. Ensure that the joists are perpendicular to the wall. If you can get under them, putting 2x10 blocking between the joists will keep them from rolling over. It will also help with the point loading of the wheels. Moving it into the house and rolling it into position seems to have the most potential for floor damage. Putting down plywood can help that. Does the safe really weigh 1000 lb.? | ||
| Akbuell |
To Aesquire's post, the answer is Bernhart Goetz. After the publics interest waned and the actual trial was held, Goetz was only convicted of not having a permit for the pistol. Also not reported - I read somewhere that in the 2 weeks following the incident, crime (or reported crime?) in the NY subway system went to essentially zero . . . | ||
| Blake |
Tootal: That is the issue. At point is the reportedly common practice of the day, the early 19th century, where concealed carry was, if memory serves, illegal in places like Boston and Philadelphia. If the people who wrote and passed the Bill of Rights were accepting of such bans, well then... isn't the logic clear that their 2nd amendment did not guarantee a constitutional right to carry concealed? Therefore requiring licensure to carry concealed is no infringement of 2nd amendment rights. I'll try to find the article. | ||
| Ducbsa |
This is the case about the police not needing to protect you: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=91084 68254125174344&q=warren-v-district-of-columbia&hl= en&as_sdt=2006 | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I met Bernie Goetz. He's a really nice guy. He's a vegetarian and has pet squirrels. I of course, never mentioned my holy war against the tree rat horde to him. His occupation is electronic instrumentation so we crossed paths professionally at my last job. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Not that it makes a lick of difference, but I disagree with that case finding. I fail to see how the courts can separate "safety of the public at large" from "protecting an individual". A full time protective detail is one thing; responding to a call of violence, break-in, and sexual assault is another thing entirely. As for civilians being allowed to use deadly force...that depends on your locality. Maryland law does NOT include "stand your ground" anywhere other than inside your own home. It is your duty as a citizen in Maryland to exit the situation. Period. End of discussion, as far as Maryland is concerned. Other states, you ARE allowed to stand your ground "in public places, automobiles, or anywhere else you are legally allowed to be". For my safe...yes, it is that heavy. Close to 4' tall, concrete-filled walls that are about 12" thick all around, with a steel door that is about 6" thick. It dented the steel deck of the car trailer it's on in the photo. Not sure of the rating - there is no plate or stamp, but there is a date of 1917 painted inside the door I believe... Yeah, while its in motion it will absolutely be on plywood so it doesn't gouge my oak. And it'll stay as close to the walls/corner as possible. I can access the underside, I may add some bracing between joists to fight twist. I may also add some "pucks" or thicker sections to the subfloor, just to be safe (no pun). It's a beautiful device and I'd love to make it part of my home....but not if it (and half my living room) will end up in the basement! | ||
| Blake |
12" thick concrete filled walls? Typo? 6" steel door? Yeah, uh that's gonna weigh a LOT more than 1000 lbs. | ||
| Ourdee |
First and foremost; Your safety is your responsibility. I worked security in the military and was always trying to think ahead. I would imagine scenarios and possible solutions. I was constantly going "what if". I knew ahead of time that I was going to drive a deuce and a half across the golf course. I cut the vehicle off before they escaped because I had played "what if" and checked the distances on the map. I still play "what if". Here is one; What if I'm in a store being robbed and I'm armed. Answer #1 a.)Check my six, cover, and concealment. b.)Be the best witness possible. c.)If the robber(s) don't seam like they will start shooting, I don't want to be why they start shooting. d.)If they seam set on killing or have started shooting, all bets are off. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'll give you a valuable one for free. Pay attention! "Someone breaks into your house. You call Law Enforcement. Now it is the police's play ground because you invited them. You need to stay in your defensible little spot exactly where you described to 911 that you would be. If the police show up and you are wandering around with your fire arm. They need to shoot you. (Not really, but) When they do get there, do what they say. Me? I played "what if" for this too. I am in my little spot wearing a vest and my hands will be empty, that means no cell phone (put it on speaker and lay it down). I will tell them to kick in the bathroom door and help me out of the tub by grabbing my empty hands. The forensics will show I was in the tub. No where to go with the perp leaning over me when I shot. The tub is as far as I can retreat. There is not a window and the structure of the house will not let you break through the wall. If you are going to carry, don't just be out there winging it. THINK. I wish open carry was more main stream. I'd sling my AR more often. Play "what if" all the time. Joe, A church up North wanted me to remove a safe from the basement. I finally told them it must have been lowered in with a wrecker truck or small crane before the stairs were built. The stairs would not have supported it. I talked them into letting me place it under the staircase for eternity. I'd place your safe on a lower level in a hidden room or disguised as a furnace in a fake utility closet. In the past I have hid stuff in bathrooms. People don't look beyond the toilet tank and medicine chest. It helps if you are good at wood working. Near where you sleep is the first place the thief looks. | ||
| Blake |
One source concerning 19th century prohibitions against carrying concealed: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/023020.html Interesting point made about the prevalence of open carry at the time. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
You should have an airbrush artist to do it up like the side of an old van with wizards and dragons and lightning bolts.   | ||
| Ourdee |
My wife may still own a bat. I saw a guy attack another guy with a bat in Illinois. The batter was about 5'11" and a bean pole. The battee was 6'1"+ and 300+ pounds. He bear hugged Mr. Spence and took him to the ground. I broke them up and told them to go away. Battee kept saying look at my face. I said I don't want to see your face, Go away! The PoPo are on their way. You know how I know they are on the way? Cause I called them. Now leave. Gang bangers up there were so stupid. Mr. Spence finally killed some one in Wisconsin and has room and board for life. Lots of crazy stories from dealing with that family. Even a Marine with an M1 doing the Clint Eastwood in real life. Another retired Marine and I went to the mayor and talked him into having the power company put a huge (BRIGHT!) street light in the problems front yard on city property. Even my back yard was like daylight at night. It took a few months and a few neighbor's help to eliminate the problem. A rival gang fire bombed the house more than once. Police asked me for video footage of the attacks. I told them I didn't have any footage as the officer stood staring at my camera pods. They started disrupting the activities over there after that. | ||
| Ratbuell |
New thread started for the safe. No Blake...not a typo. Took actual measurements just now, and fresh photos. It's large. | ||
| Ratbuell |
As for the home invasion situation...it's up to you. Personally? "Hello, police? There's an intruder in my house who may be armed. I AM armed. I am 6'4", brown short hair, wearing boxers and black socks. I will attempt to stay hidden in the bathtub in the bathroom at the top of the stairs until you get here but if that changes I will call again. Just tell the officers not to shoot the near-naked tall guy when they get here". Then...use your judgement. Hide (stuff can be replaced)...or fight. As noted above, though, make sure to finish the fight if you're going to start one. And when the cops arrive, you better be well-lit and obviously non-threatening. ID in hand might not hurt. | ||
| Ourdee |
Years ago we called Kentucky's laws about open display of weapon's The Fair Fight Law. Wouldn't be fair to get shot by a guy in a fight because he had his gun hid and you didn't know he had one. Would it? | ||
| Ourdee |
Keep tape in the bathroom and tape the ID to your butt. I don't want any thing in my hands.  | ||
| Aesquire |
Nearly half of NY firearms training is how to get pulled over. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/new-york-pc-hand gun-sales/ What does your browser history include? | ||
| Blake |
RD, You're begging for a meme captioning contest with that bathtub pic. | ||
| Ratbuell |
...especially with the vest on... | ||
| Ourdee |
I've got a good sense of humor. I doubt anyone will make me cry. How many people play what if, but never see if they will even fit in places with gear on. It is hard to get in some tubs with a P227 on your side. My main concern was the shower head holds water for a while. Then will dump it later. At least I didn't dress for it like Joe. I'm going to soak the shower head in vinegar. The turbine part probably has lime in it. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Ultrasonic cleaners also work well for shower heads. I just figured I'd be wearing what I wear to bed - fingerprint ID on the bedside safe for access, up, and start clearing the house (or simply crawl into the master tub - depends on active threat assessment). Most likely not going to take the time to change wardrobes...although, I do have a hook on the inside of the bedroom door... My other option, could I get there, would be the closest thing I have to a panic room. My front porch has its own basement, accessed through a fire door to the main basement. Single entry point, cinderblock walls all around, and a concrete deck as a roof (the porch deck). But if there's a threat in the house, there's no real way to get there without going through traffic areas on the way. There are crawl spaces in a guest bedroom, with semi-hidden access...but they're drywall, not block. I'll have to do some scouting and planning. And thinking about it...my tub is fiberglass. Less than helpful here. Perhaps a vest IS in my best interest... | ||
| Ourdee |
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| Ourdee |
If you have to fire your weapon in a building, the first time will leave you disoriented (like an airbag going off in your car). My .454 is like setting off a flash-bang every shot. A .45acp or .357 is not small in a bathroom. Plan ahead. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
While I don't disagree with Ourdees suggestion, I do have some food for thought. Disclaimer: I believe in obeying the law and do my best to stayt on the correct side of them particularly ones involving a firearm. In some states committing, (being charged with), a crime while wearing body armor can bring additional charges. A politically motivated prosecutor might want to use that fact for a soapbox, and call into question your right to self defense in the situation. The city attorney,(with ambition for the US congress), might paint you as a vigilante lying in wait like a spider (in Ourdee's example, in a bathtub, to establish justification of force), giggling at the opportunity to take one of the bad guys out permanently if they should stumble into the ambush. They prosecutor may not care if you had the police on the phone, begging them to hurry. News outlets will edit the audio of your 911 call ( for time) to only play the part where you say "I am armed" all they see, and all the media will show, is the "military style gear" you keep. You may be exonerated on facts ...eventually, after a long and very expensive trial. Image is everything today, sadly sometimes it matters more than facts.} |
