| Author | Message | ||
     Ratbuell |
Hi Guys and gals - I'm going to post this on the Cummins forum when I get home but I can't remember my password at the moment (it's autosaved at home). Odd thing going on with my 01 Cummins Dodge and figured I'd ask here...just in case  2001 Dodge Cummins 5.9 24v, 6 speed. Good batteries (18 months old). Good charging system. Starts and runs fine when it's warm out. When it's cold...it clicks. Sometimes, I bump the key a bunch of times and it'll start up for me. Full speed crank, not slow like a dead battery would behave. Sometimes like last night, I have to put a set of jumpers on it for about five seconds (long enough to walk from the battery to the ignition key), and it'l fire right up full speed crank. Again - ZERO issues when it's above freezing. And I have full lights, stereo, nothing is dim, nothing is slow even when it's acting up. It just does...NOTHING, until it decides "OK, I'm done having fun with him" and it starts like nothing is going on. Thoughts? Is there an achilles' heel in the starter system that I can go to, or am I looking at a couple days of chasing wires? | ||
| Ourdee |
Wet solenoid freezing? | ||
| Ratbuell |
Been doing it for the last 2 years. Warmed up last spring, started behaving, I lost interest in chasing an electrical demon...and now it's acting up again with the advent of winter weather. Forgot to mention, there's a third scenario when it acts up. I can either bump-bump-bump till it starts...or sometimes I can hold the key in the start position, and after about five seconds (the time varies, but it's a few seconds at least), and something will finally kick in and it'll go full-speed crank and fire right up. | ||
| Teeps |
Refer to: Al Lighton's rule 1. It's always the grounds until proven otherwise. Could also be failing contacts in the ig switch or solenoid. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/98-5-02-powertra in/381322-wont-start-just-clicks.html post 5 | ||
| Aesquire |
Bad starter relay ground. Could be the relay itself but it sounds like grounding issues that would only show up under heavy load. Check engine ground and main battery ground too. And by check I mean unbolt scuff/sand and clean. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Will do, thanks. I replaced the starter a few years back as well (it would run on); I'll verify none of those contacts have come loose. Now, where'd I leave my box of star washers.... | ||
| Shoggin |
You could move to a warmer place?  If it clicks and does nothing, theres pretty much only one circuit to check. Yes it's the starter solenoid circuit, but more specifically the High amp side. It's pretty dead simple though, so no worries. . The clicking means its getting signal from the key and activating ok so no worries on the low amp side. The high amp side consists of the main battery hot wire to the solenoid and the main (big) wire from the solenoid to the starter. This includes the battery terminals, contacts in the solenoid and the brushes in the starter. If the wiring is not corroded, you very possibly need a solenoid and/or a starter. If you don't want to blindly replace parts with a guess, I would buy a beer, get a friend, and when it just clicks use a test light on the battery side of the solenoid to make sure you have voltage (all the time, the key doesn't have to be on), then when you turn the key all the way to crank and the solonoid clicks you either: 1) Lose voltage at the battery side (and have a bad/ corroded connection to the batteries on that wire) 2) Have voltage on the battery side and have no voltage to the starter side of the solenoid (sticking or bad contacts in the solonoid/replace) 3) Have voltage on both sides of the solonoid (replace the starter/ brushes or armature is bad) | ||
| Aesquire |
Could be worse. We had a Chevy van where the flywheel lost a few teeth. Four states away in a blizzard. Doing a car show in Boston for work. Naturally each attempt to start ended with the starter gear on the dead spot. So I'd crawl under the van, & turn the engine by hand with the flywheel, then yell up for another try. ( we removed the cover first time. ) Every time we stopped to eat or refuel for two days. | ||
| Etennuly |
Tow that thing to Florida for the next five months. | ||
| Maddiemsu |
I had a similar thing going on with my Duramax. Try replacing the positive battery cables. That solved mine. | ||
| Ratbuell |
No money to be made in FL, Vern...I'd have a free roof over my head, but that wouldn't pay for the roof I have in MD (and I don't really want to live with Mom again lol). Doing some poking around on the Cummins forums, it appears there IS an achilles' heel here. Starter solenoid contacts are undersized. Thinking back...I replaced my starter a couple years ago because it wasn't disengaging after the engine started. I don't remember it doing this click-thing before the replacement. Of course, I replaced it midsummer so no immediate "hey, waitaminute..." that would have resulted in an immediate warranty exchange. I do remember at the time I was shy about using a NAPA starter...but it was about half the money of an OEM. That said...now it hates cold weather. Reading the forums, the solenoid contacts can be (usually are) the issue, and the writeup here confirms it: https://www.genosgarage.com/product/lb-r90ss/engin e-rebuild-kits-3 I trust Geno's; have gotten a ton of stuff from there in the past. And for $20...it's worth a shot to take a swing at a common issue! | ||
| Crusty |
Let us know if it does the trick; please. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I had exactly the same thing on the wife's 06 Hemi powered Grand cherokee about a year after I'd changed the starter, turned out to be the connection onto the solenoid. It's been ok since but has now been replaced with a Kia Sorento which makes the Jeep look rubbish in nearly every way. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Still waiting on the part to arrive; hopefully this weekend I can do the swap, and hopefully it'll do the trick. I need my truck for gigs! Small shows, I can fit my system in the turbo minivan...but if I do anything bigger, I need the trailer. Mini ain't gonna pull 26'!! I will say I love my '14 Grand Cherokee. Light years ahead of the older models. I've had two problems with it - total - in 40k miles. First, the EGR cooler had a small leak and it kept tripping the exhaust regen process (I have the 3.0 VM Motori diesel). Warranty replaced the cooler, no issues since. And, the wheels have had a clearcoat lift issue. Hard corners (lugnut holes; valve stem holes; center cap holes - anywhere there's a 90 degree corner from the face down into the hole). The clear was too thin on those corners and water got under it and started turning the aluminum white. Looks like shit. Just got a text from my buddy at Jeep parts - they're ordering four brand new wheels for me. WOO-HOO!!! Now I'm gonna cross my fingers they send Parts a "scrap" notice for my take-offs...so I end up with a winter set as well as a "nice" set | ||
| Ratbuell |
So far, so good. Took longer to rubiks-cube the starter out of the truck, than it did to exchange the contacts and plunger. Took it to Lowe's to get some building supplies, started perfectly in the garage. Started perfectly after Lowe's. Started perfectly after a stop at Wally World. Baptism by fire tonight - instead of the garage (insulated and hovering around 50 degrees), I'm purposely parking it in the driveway. Currently, 36 degrees (10pm). We'll see how she does in the morning. Fingers crossed that 20 bucks took care of it!! | ||
| Ourdee |
20 bucks will fix anything. =]  opcorn: | ||
| Etennuly |
Most vehicle electrical problems show up during seasonal changes in my experience. Expansion and contraction. If your contact points were under sized to begin with, cold makes them even smaller,therefore air gaps get larger. The opposite can happen when cold shifts to warm. I generally fix more ground wire issues when temperatures drop. The mechanical contacts can loosen as the metal contracts But actual wire failures seem more frequent in hot weather. Heat expands wires and softens insulation coatings. | ||
| Ratbuell |
FIXED!! Sat out overnight in 34 degree weather. Left the block heater disconnected. Did not use the battery tender. Went out, key-on, let the "wait" light do its thing...fired right up, first crank. I love when a $26 fix takes care of a major issue!! | ||
| Crusty |
Cool! Congratulations! | ||
| Ratbuell |
Well... Drove to work yesterday. Started fine in the garage (heated/insulated, 52 degrees). Sat at work all day in 20 degree weather. Go out after work...nada. Not even a click. Relay underhood is clicking, but no starter click at all. Full batteries. (insert expletive string here) Took a company truck (thanks, boss!) to pick up 350sf of hardwood flooring and head home for the night. Researching overnight...I'm gonna try and bypass the clutch pedal safety switch today (it still doesn't even click, and I had the block heater plugged in all night). This is a "safety" switch on the clutch master cylinder rod behind the pedal, that disconnects the starter until you depress the clutch. It's plastic. In 244,000 miles I'm sure that plastic switch has been cycled....a few times. I'm really hoping I don't have to swap a starter in a parking lot...it's freakin' COLD right now... | ||
| Ratbuell |
...and it's not the clutch switch. Dammit. | ||
| Ourdee |
Hamhock! | ||
| Etennuly |
This may not be your problem,but I recently fixed a vehicle with the same symptoms. Warm it would fire right up cold no go. Similar to our Uly wiring dramas, the battery lead attached to a stud at the under hood fuse panel where three factory hot leads were stacked. The nut was tight,I loosened it to clean them and the wire ends fell apart. The copper ends were blued from heat. Must have made them brittle. Just a suggestion from the sidelines. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I think...I have it. I think. Rigged up a William from the hills (hillbilly) pushbutton start to get it home. Got it to start ONCE. Told my boss "I'm not shutting it off, I'm taking it home and I'll come back in my jeep". He said take the afternoon. So I did. Got home, turned it off....no restart. So I dug in. NOWHERE in any of the wiring diagrams did this show up. Everything shows the 12v output pin from the relay, being connected to the starter trigger post. But voltmeter and tester both showed no volts at the starter end of that wire when I turned the key. Relay terminal, yes. Starter end, no. Broken wire, he thinks as if he knew what he was talking about. Back pulled the wire from the starter. Expected to get two half-wires. Nope. Solid, clean, no issues. Kept pulling it back to the PDC (power distribution center) and...um...WTF is this?? It's a ••••••• CONNECTOR. Wire came from the relay post, out the PDC...to a friggin' PLUG. Not on any diagram. Factory...but not documented. Or smart. Poked it, turned it, looked at it, tried the key with the test light on the starter-end ring terminal....light. ••••••• it. Needless to say, there is no more connector. Cut that bastard out. Soldered and heat shrunk the ends together. Re-routed the wire and got about 3' out of it. Dressed it, put everything back together...fires right up. Took it to Wally World for dog food, fired right up. Stupid. Let's put a connector (a.k.a. "failure point") in the starter trigger lead. And then...let's mess with everyone and NEVER DOCUMENT IT!!! Grrrrrrr....... | ||
| Ourdee |
Sure it wasn't part of someones after-market security or repo-man's gps tracker and immobilize it connection point? I am happy you found it. See, less than $20.00. I knew it wasn't fixed when you said it took $26.00. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Positive. Factory connector style, factory mounting tab, factory stupid. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Perhaps it was a place to put in a remote starter from the factory? If that were the case, I would expect to find a similar connector attached to whatever allows the fuel rail and the accessories to go. Going off of these assumptions, one could look up what the factory remote start looked like to extrapolate where these other failure points could be found. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I don't think they offered one on a 2001 diesel stickshift. And most ignition kills / immobilizers, tap into the clutch safety switch / neutral safety switch (if an auto). The clutch switch is a normally-open switch on the starter relay ground wire. Press the pedal, pushes the button, closes the circuit and grounds the relay. I now have that bypassed as well - I've had cars run away in the past so I know to either sit in the seat and step on the damn pedal, or make sure the shifter is in neutral. I think the connector is in the trigger wire because they routed the trigger wire in the same loom as the battery cable; from the hot terminal on the drivers battery, down along the edge of the radiator, back along the oil pan, to the starter. 6' of wiring, replaceable as a sub-harness if needed. I routed my trigger wire in its own smaller loom for protection, directly down from the PDC to the starter lug. Less than 3' total, still has good slack/service loop, no rub issues on anything, and less length-resistance so I should be throughputting more power to the lug. | ||
| Hootowl |
It may not have been offered on your model (pretty sure no one does remote start on manuals) but they likely used the same wiring harnesses on other models, so you get all that stuff too. | ||
| Etennuly |
Awesome. When chasing these kind of problems there is no inch of wire not suspect. All of those engineering /Service manuals are no replacement for a hands on mechanic. Reading about what is supposed to be there doesn't make it so. Glad you found it! |
