| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
No doubt it gets confusing. That's a big reason "eye witnesses" can be such terrible sources of accurate information. Watching the video though, there's some fire that's heard right away, that I'm ignoring simply because I don't know if it's echo, or actual shots. At about 48 seconds in though, you can hear a burst, followed by a quieter echo. She stays filming out her driver window and you never see the edge of the window go up or down until you hear a much louder burst of fire. She is still filming in the same direction, still in the same spot, and you never see the window roll up or down. I'm not saying it can't be explained with a single shooter, but it sure is begging for an explanation. Add in her comment about the burst at 48 seconds sounding like it's coming from farther away really has me thinking it's more that an artifact of the filming. A couple of explanation I can think of would be swapping rifles, or a significant change in point of aim. From what I've seen of diagrams of the area, I doubt there would be any significant change in the point of aim to make such a change in what's heard. I have to admit though, I'm not experienced at being on the downrange side of rifle fire. I don't think we know enough about the rifle(s) that were actually used to determine if that might be a plausible explanation. Was there only a single weapon with a bump fire stock? I think I read that somewhere, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. I have seen a number of people speak up about the "fact" that the bump fire stock has a slower rate of fire than a full auto M4. Supposedly be very close to belt fed weapons, accounting for confusion of experience folks saying it wasn't 5.56 fire. Certainly beyond my scope of experience. | ||
| Torquehd |
I didn't watch the whole video that you linked but I watched the same video, full length, on youtube. When the concertgoers pile into the cab you hear them saying things like, "thousands are dead, everyone's dead, dead bodies covering the ground". I have no doubt that's exactly how it seemed and that's probably how they'll always remember it. There are probably a lot of people who were there who are now thinking, "i can't believe the news is saying only 59 died, I climbed over literally hundreds of dead bodies". | ||
| Aesquire |
I have seen a number of people speak up about the "fact" that the bump fire stock has a slower rate of fire than a full auto M4. Supposedly be very close to belt fed weapons, accounting for confusion of experience folks saying it wasn't 5.56 fire. Certainly beyond my scope of experience. The M4 IIRC has a 3 round burst mode because full auto would empty a 30 round magazine by the time you can say "30 round magazine". Long done studies show that after the first few shots, full auto weapons like the Ak & Ar platforms just spray the sky, so the use the burst fire system to toss 3 in a tight-ish clump. Pros shoot to hit so their fire sounds like popcorn. Bump fire stocks on an AR spray bullets because they partially isolate the hand and the gun wiggles. Rate of fire is highly variable, but, yes, generally much less rapid than the burst mode of a M-16. Less than a belt fed machine gun, depending on model, more like a late war Thompson, but stuttering. keep in mind that without any silly toys or techniques, a Halo player, or anyone who practices, can fire rapidly enough that others will THINK he's firing full auto. But he's not. Someone who practices can get the whole magazine on target a football field away so fast you'd think it was full auto, but will only do so in cases like suppressive fire through a door or window of a concrete building. For shooting at people, an expert will fire 2-3 quick shots then move his aim to the next, hence the "popcorn" sound of a pro. As to changes in sound... There were two broken windows, on each face of the building that overlooked the concert, and police reports so far tell us that the one on the broad face was used to shoot at the jet fuel tanks nearby. ( at the Airport ) Both windows have a view of the concert site, and shooting from one, then the other, would certainly change the sound a lot. Completely different echos and reverb. Still haven't heard what kind of weapons were used, although someone here mentioned a .22LR, and there appear to be 5.56 casings scattered around, and the news labeled everything in sight as AR-type weapons, which means exactly ZERO, since they don't have a clue, or give a damn about the facts, about guns.  | ||
| Torquehd |
They look like 5.56 mags. I've never done this, but you can redneck modify a sear on an AR to spray full auto and it will eject the brass so quickly that the brass will actually clink with the previous piece as it exits the ejection port. That's coming from a gunsmith buddy of mine. You can also buy full auto sears, so I've been told. I have no reason for the ATF to show up at my door so I don't fiddle with that stuff. Plus I'm too poor to modify the few guns I'm fortunate enough to have. The standard M4 has 3 round burst; the M4A1 has full auto. Proper recoil management takes practice. Otherwise, you will be spraying the sky as you said Patrick. But anyone who has practiced it can do it. Same thing with an AK. | ||
| Ourdee |
If you can keep the spray wand at the coin car wash pointed at your car, you can handle full auto. | ||
| Torquehd |
I think that's a bit of a leap of association. If you're shooting prone and your whole body is laying on the ground soaking up the recoil it's no big deal. I only weigh 155 pounds so for standing and shooting full auto, I have to lean forward and the gun holds me upright. If I try to stand straight up my shoulder starts rocking backward and I'm shooting up over the berm. I know heavier framed guys who don't have to work as hard at it as I do. | ||
| Ourdee |
M-60, M-16, MG-42: They weighed more than the wand. But I didn't perceive them being any more difficult to hold on target. Most people are surprised by the walk of them when they first shoot them. After a few thousand rounds you learn what needs to be done. I prefer to pull them into me. I target shoot single shot and auto way different from each other. I pull the wand in close for more control. I do not hold them the may the military had us do it on a range. | ||
| Aesquire |
Editorial mocking the conspiracy theories. http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/10/wh at_happened_in_vegas.html First hand report on drug induced craziness. Well, second hand. Award winning author's wife's problem. https://m.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/a-theory-o n-las-vegas/10155111388257055/ Full disclosure. Ringo is one of my favorite authors, with a caveat. He sometimes lets his personal politics intrude on his story telling. For example, I highly recommend "The Last Centurions" but he has a transparently Hillary character going nuts in the White House. ( which will anger her fans and amuse her haters, and serve as a cautionary tale for those who feared pretty much exactly what happens in this novel. ) His "Live Free Or Die" first book in the Troy Rising trilogy, otoh I can recommend unabashedly although there is some French bashing. ( the French automatically want to surrender to hostile aliens, the Russians want to use them to screw everyone else, the usual cliches. Because they happen. ) In any event his post above is well worth the read and apolitical. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Very enlightening article by Mr. Ringo. I will definitely check out his books. News story today giving info on what was found on the note seen in photos of the shooter's hotel room: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/las-vegas-gunman-step hen-paddock-note-hotel-room-details-of-bullet-traj ectory/ | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/452443/charli e-sykess-wrong-call-constitutional-carry-nuts I found the CBS article to use prejudicial language. Court, I hope I wan't too abrupt with you, no anger at you meant, at all. I just wanted to explain why I was defending the possession of silly, stupid, bum stocks in the face of even the NRA supporting a consideration of banning them. Because it's stupid. Yes, there is a possibility that a copycat loon will go buy one and use it to kill. So what? It could have been a slingshot. Same thing would happen. I've just decided that after being lied to by the gun grab people, after years of watching the Exploit A Crippled Brady organization lie in the name of a man shot by a man obsessed with Jodie Foster ( and who wasn't? ) that I wasn't going to give them anything. Not one more inch. Year after year we get the same stories. "give us this tax increase and we'll cut spending" "Give the illegal Immigrants amnesty and we'll enforce the border" "ban guns that with bayonet mounts and we'll be done with gun bans based on incremental theft". Every time, when the concession is made, the promise is broken. And when is the last time someone in civilian America was killed by a bayonet on a gun? ( and the AR style weapons system is infamously a horrible replacement for a Pike, unlike the Garand of our fathers. ) Nope. Not going to buy the lie again. Not giving any ground, even, especially, even, if I think it's not my interest. Not going to say "I'm a target shooter, I don't care about Deer Hunting". Nope. Screw them. BTW, I don't hunt deer. But please do. And please teach the young hunters. I have way too many deer killing people locally. | ||
| Sifo |
I have to say that I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with Aesquire's above post. The Dems have pretty much been dishonest about every single major issue. One point I do take on face value. When Pelosi tells her base that she hopes banning bump stocks is a slippery slope, I believe her on that point. They are not to be trusted. | ||
| Sifo |
If anybody is unclear on what a bump stock does, here's a video from CNN with a graphic that will leave you even more uninformed about bump stocks.  | ||
| Macbuell |
LOFL. They took a standard stock and moved it back and forth ... as if that was a bump stock. They also added a Suppressor and a Grenade launcher to make the rifle look even meaner. (Message edited by macbuell on October 09, 2017) | ||
| Torquehd |
So you just cycle the collapsible stock between full out and 1 click in, and do that 500 times per minute, and that's bump fire? How can you take your self serious when you look like such an A-clown on national news? Edit. Yes, the bumpstock also works on the 203. It gives racist fascist xenophobes a fully automatic grenade launcher. But they forgot to show the suppressor for the 203. (Message edited by torquehd on October 09, 2017) | ||
| Ourdee |
I'll choose a single shot M-79 with HE any day. | ||
| Aesquire |
Tomorrow's news! Bump stocks used at voting machines reason for Trump victory! We've always been at war with Eastasia. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Does anyone have an "official" approximation number of rounds fired? It seems like a VERY low number of rounds assuming this shooter was armed as reported and the intent was to kill as many as possible. I would have expected a nearly constant barrage of shots all things considered. | ||
| Torquehd |
I'll choose a single shot M-79 with HE any day. Hell yeah. The pirate grenade launcher. You need to fire an HK320. It's essentially a grenade pistol with an extendable stock. Or an M32  Google it. I guarantee it will make you smile. Well, shooting it will anyway. Edit: I would have expected a nearly constant barrage of shots all things considered. That's one of the things I don't understand. From the picture of the hotel room posted above, I count at least sixteen 60 round mags (I think they're actually 100 round mags although I'm having a hard time finding them online). Plus at least one 30 round mag. So he had 990 rounds at a minimum, unless he was a retard and didn't load all of his mags and just stacked them up for the photo op. The mystery to me was the long duration of his mag changes. It shouldn't take more than 10 seconds if you're SLOW laying in the prone. Correction 2. I count 18 of the 60/80/100? round magazine, and 3 of the 30 round mags. Correction number 3. They are 100 round magazines. So 1,890 rounds minimum. If they were all full (Message edited by torquehd on October 09, 2017) | ||
| Macbuell |
They said he had cameras set up all over his floor of the hotel. He was probably checking the cameras to see if the police were closing in. Just a guess but seems logical. Not that he was logical. | ||
| Torquehd |
They said that. I'd like to see pictures of how you set up your own video security system outside your hotel door without being conspicuous and having security called on you. They say he had an escape plan (which we've seen no proof of), they say he offed himself, they say a cop shot him. This part is still murky as well. I suspect we'll never know the truth. And, perhaps, it's irrelevant. Whether he was a nutjob or a Muslim or was framed, there may be no way to uncover the truth. | ||
| Crusty |
I suspect we'll never know the truth That's two of us. | ||
| Ourdee |
Jesse, I fired 700 40mm from an M-203 one day over seas. If you don't clean them, the grips blow off after a while. I blew the grips off 3 of them that day. They were already dirty when I got them. After the first one popped I was told to keep firing. Leather glove stops it from stinging you too bad. I still like the 79 best. You can put the long flares in them. You could use wireless cameras. People don't pay much attention to them. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/10/wh y_we_cannot_trust_the_fbi.html If the FBI knew I was targeted by obedient Islamic murderers and encouraged them while refusing to warn me, I wouldn't trust them either. Why should you? | ||
| Sifo |
I'm not going to argue that the FBI deserves our trust. They have done much to deserve being suspicious of them. I'm not sure that naturally leads to this ass-hat shooter being an ISIS member though. His "travels to the middle east" are pretty standard fare tourist destinations, along with many other tourist destinations. He was a wealthy guy that traveled. Cherry picking a couple of destinations is pretty weak evidence of being converted to Islam, but less being radicalized. Add to that, is a radical Muslim likely to be seen at an anti-Trump rally, dressed in pink, wearing a vagina hat? It certainly doesn't fit the stereotype. My money is on him being more or less a copy cat of the shooting of Republicans at the baseball game. Not exactly what the MSM or most government workers want to have as a motive though. Far better to just have it "unexplained". | ||
| Sifo |
Interesting theory on the why question. I tend to agree with much of this... I Think Mark Steyn’s Correspondent Has The Las Vegas Massacre Figured Out | ||
| Aesquire |
That is as good a theory as any, and does not require any of the flaws of the typical Conspiracy Theory. Which are the need for a highly unlikely sequence of events to happen absolutely perfectly, with zero margin for error, and the utter silence from co-conspirators which would give it all away. I did read an editorial that examined the ISIS claim. ( I can't find it now, It may have been from England ) One fact is that ISIS usually does NOT claim credit for operations it has nothing to do with. Unlike CNN they have a reputation to protect. The speculation is that this is a smart ploy bu ISIS to discredit the U.S. Government. By making the public claim, and sticking to it with simple repeats of the claim that he was recruited/converted months ago, they establish a clear narrative with no evidence. Then they let the FBI and the rest of the Government say the murderer had no connection, repeatedly, to counter each repeated claim, more or less daily. Then when the FBI swears up and down there is no evidence, ISIS releases evidence, probably a video of the murderer swearing jihad, and thus make the already sub basement trust in the U.S. gov. go further to hell, and with no minuses at all for ISIS. THEY told the truth. The author also noted that despite the lasses on the ground in Iraq & Syria, ISIS still has a strong Internet presence, and an international organization to recruit and money launder. So this is a great way for them to leverage their strengths, against the weakness of the FBI's reputation , and the greed and dishonesty of the Media. It makes a lot of sense, and fits all the facts on the ground. Almost as well as the think tank idea reported by Mr. Steyn. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Tom- That theory certainly seems to fit the physical evidence, but I'm skeptical a guy with apparently NO political or religious affiliation would care about an issue like that enough to do anything, much less do what he did. I've been watching Scott Adams' Twitter podcast almost every day recently. His current theory is the guy just wanted to prove that he was evil. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
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| Sifo |
Tom- That theory certainly seems to fit the physical evidence, but I'm skeptical a guy with apparently NO political or religious affiliation would care about an issue like that enough to do anything, much less do what he did. I tend to agree, but... Would a guy with apparently NO political affiliation be at an anti-trump rally, dressed in pink, with a vagina on his head? | ||
| Macbuell |
That thought that his goal was to bring about more gun control had crossed my mind. Here's one question ... there were reports about all of this gun purchases but did he ever shoot the guns at a gun range. If he did have a dislike for guns and gun laws and this was all about that political statement, did he ever actually fire the weapons he purchased? Prior to that night? Most of those who are against guns recoil at even the sight of them. I once handed a friend an unloaded pistol and he jumped so far you would have thought he was bit by a snake. So it would be telling, IMO, if he purchased all those weapons but never actually shot them at the range. |
