| Author | Message | ||
     Torquehd |
That was a joke. A reference to a video clip that I assumed most have seen. Dumb A politician on an anti-gun rant. The picture of the alleged hotel room actually showed a presumably 60 rd mag. It's bigger than 30 anyway. Here  Expect the left to push to ban "bump stocks" (wtf is a bump stock?), "high-capacity magazines", "ar-15 style rifles", "rifle scopes", "gun stands", and "two chairs pushed together". Good thing he had time to set a gun down on the bipod over his leg after he killed himself (and after the cops killed him depending on which report you read)... Edit. Most who see this picture will probably not know that holographic optics are better for CQB than for mass shootings. I mean of course they'll do the job but you really don't need much in the way of sights for cyclic. You sure don't need that 12x or whatever scope he's got. Walk the rounds onto the target area. But I'm sure they'll be politicized as instruments of mass murder. (Message edited by torquehd on October 04, 2017) | ||
| Ourdee |
Quite a few ARs for one man in a hotel. What was in his mind? | ||
| Ourdee |
Valium. | ||
| Sifo |
So having said what i did earlier, I do believe there was a belt-fed based on the rate of fire from the videos. Interesting. I read a similar comment on a video I watched. The guy claimed to be a vet who had heard thousands of rounds fired in combat. Personally, I have zero expertise in that area, so won't offer an opinion other than I do recognize that certain weapons will sound distinctively different from others. | ||
| Torquehd |
Well, if this picture was taken prior to everything being moved around, he didn't do a very good job setting up his work station. Why would you not have all of your magazines right where you're going to be shooting and doing mag changes? Why have guns strung out all over the place? They said it took 72 minutes to find and neutralize the guy, i guess he could have rearranged everything after he was done. But why? The question also is valid and common sense - why so many rifles? 3 at most would make sense. Main, alternate, contingent. | ||
| Sifo |
I keep hearing how meticulous his planning was in the news. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one looking at this and thinking it looks like an amateur job. I have seen lots of things that have made me say WTF was that about. I think the shooting was over in about 12 minutes. Very likely he was dead at that point. I heard that given that no more shots were being fired, they waited for SWAT to arrive and plan their breach. Probably not a bad decision IMO. | ||
| Torquehd |
I'm sure, once the cops were alerted, someone in an armchair decided that SWAT would be the instrument of choice. I also concur probably not a bad decision, but SWAT takes longer to mobilize than having the nearest pair of officers run up the elevator. Which could have saved lives or could have ended up with a higher body count. Risk management is a never-ending tradeoff. As stated earlier, you should assume the door to the room was boobytrapped, and I'm sure that's why they reportedly used an explosive breach. This mitigates the boobytrap risk but using HE indoors puts human lives at risk of overpressure. I'm guessing most cities would not have indoor breach capability and frankly I'm impressed that they had the means and did so effectively. I'm sure, as was mentioned earlier, conspiracy theories will be all over this like ticks on a dog. Some of them will be absurd, some of them will probably be closer to true than the official story. In the midst of the spin, don't forget to pray for the families, friends, and survivors. There are thousands of people grieving and hurting and feeling like the whole world just crashed down around them. They need God's love and a helpful hand right now. | ||
| Torquehd |
Just looked up "bump stock". I hadn't heard of it before; I expect they will be illegal in the near future. (FYI - most people who want to turn an AR full auto just buy a full auto sear. That bump stock is janky!) The only cyclic rate for a "bump stock" that I was able to find was from CNN which claims 400-800 rounds per minute. This would put the rate of fire closer to a belt fed like an m240, if correct. The rate of fire is now more plausible, in my opinion. Frankly I'm surprised this was legal to begin with. The mere jankyness of it and likelyhood of uncontrollable recoil management are as concerning as essentially having an unregistered full auto weapon. I also found an article with the range of the shooting. According to http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-the-trigonometry-of-terror-why-the-las-1507085772-htmlstory.html it was between 1,000-1,300 feet from the Mandalay Bay hotel to the music venue. So 300-400 meters-ish. Easy day for anyone who's pulled a trigger before.  Breaking out the second window would have had virtually no change on his field of fire. (Message edited by torquehd on October 04, 2017) | ||
| Torquehd |
Give this man an award! https://www.thedailybeast.com/unarmed-security-gua rd-jesus-campos-took-on-las-vegas-killer-stephen-p addock | ||
| Aesquire |
Legal caution, M-16 full auto parts, any full auto parts, are restricted items and possession without appropriate paperwork is illegal. Check all relevant local, state and federal laws. Bump stocks are a relatively new toy from the last couple of hundred years and aren't illegal because they work like crap. It takes practice to hold the rifle just loosely enough to make it dance in your hands and spray bullets at the world. I had a chance to try one and just laughed. Then I showed the guy how to do the same thing without the stock, and faster. Legally they fall under the category of stupid things you don't need to outlaw because if you use them in a crime they throw the aggravated/premeditated/depraved charge at you and hammer you flat. If you use stupid crap to hurt people it's de facto proof you meant to hurt people worse than normal, on purpose, thought about it ahead of time, and went to great effort to be more wrong than you started out. I'm sure there's a legal term for this but, believe me, you don't need to ban anything. ( Because half the time the stupid stuff makes it easier to stop you. The leftist who shoe Congresscritter Giffords was disarmed by a civilian IIRC because his extended magazine gave the guy leverage. ( and it didn't work right ) You will however,hear a lot of people calling for bans on stuff, and the subject is so politicized that I don't actually buy any news story about this guy at face value. So he may or may not have had bump stocks or any other magic thing no reporter knows anything about and didn't know existed until someone, anyone, gave him a handout. I'll buy the Police report with a little salt,when it comes out, but in the meantime, I've already heard conflicting and incorrect reporting. So be skeptical with this stuff. | ||
| Gregtonn |
In the taxi driver vid at about 5:00, just before he says "oh shit", you can see muzzle flash from one of the windows. G | ||
| Sifo |
The bump stop is a stupid work around of the laws prohibiting manufacture of full auto rifles for civilian sale. It's a tribute to working around silly laws. From what I understand, they are finicky to use, and don't provide good control of the rifle. They do give the experience of blasting through a lot of ammo in a very short time though. Apparently they are effective when you can spray into a very target dense area. Not good for much else IMO. So naturally, we must focus on "silencers".  | ||
| Court |
>>>It's a tribute to working around silly laws. And stark testimony to our collective stupidity as a society. Who, in their right mind, would approve such a thing? I'm an expert marksman and a staunch gun supporter but . . . let's be honest here . . . that thing is pure, unmitigated stupidity. I hope the manufacture gets drawn into the inevitable legal action. What a shame. | ||
| Macbuell |
They are now saying he had an escape plan. If that is the case and he wasn't trying to off himself, I find it hard to believe there isn't some sort of motive, political or otherwise. A 64 year old with plenty of money in the bank doesn't just decide to do something like this and plan it all out like he did without there being some kind of motive. | ||
| Macbuell |
I'm with you Court. I see no reason for this thing and, as they say, sometimes you have to give the dog a bone. Let the Anti-Gun Lobby have this small victory and let them outlaw these types of things. | ||
| Aesquire |
Nope. Don't give them an inch. They won't stop with bump stocks. They lie about semi automatic function NOW. Besides, bump stocks are approved by the Obama ATF. The professional liars can make any violation of your right to own a molded plastic piece of crap seem reasonable. Screw that. In New York possession of standard capacity magazines is treated like you murdered a school. Remember, these are the people who insist designs from the 1800's are too advanced for the peasants to have. After all, the Founding Fathers never meant to include radical new technology like a handle or a lever. Oddly, in Switzerland every adult male has a machine gun in his closet. And enough ammo to kill the first wave of invaders at hand. Meanwhile in England they are banning pool supplies because throwing acid in people's faces at random is popular, for some reason. No one mentions it's how Afghanistan obedient Islamic men treat little girls who go to school. | ||
| Macbuell |
I don't care who they were approved by. I also don't care that they won't stop with Bump Stocks. Just because you don't object to this measure doesn't mean you lay down for everything else. | ||
| Aesquire |
Overton window. I'm not "making a stand" on bump stocks per se. I'm saying the tech is irrelevant. I reject any ban. The starting point here is decades ago. Decades of deliberate lies about every aspect of the Movement to disarm you. Never Again. | ||
| Ratbuell |
The Swiss also have a conscription army. You reach legal age, you're in the service. They're ALL trained. Methinks that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing here in the USA. Melt some snowflakes, teach some respect, and breed some national pride. It would also teach these little Call of Duty video-warrior wannabes what actually happens when a bullet tears through flesh. It isn't pretty and it isn't something that a right-minded person aspires to. | ||
| Macbuell |
I agree that the Tech is irrelevant. I guess I just don't see the elimination of this one item which has no practical use and was just demonstrated how it could be used in a malicious way, as a step down a slippery slope. Especially if people like us make sure it isn't a step down that slippery slope. From my vantage point the next argument they make we, the 2nd Amendment group, would just simply say ... we conceded that one point and allowed you to ban something previously deemed legal by the ATF. We're not going there again and then stand firmly in that position. | ||
| Henshao |
I'm amazed to see anybody from this board advocate banning bump-fire stocks. You guys ride Harley-engined sportbikes and want to talk about what another person should or shouldn't have because it's stupid and janky...Court you surprise me the most. Manufacturer should be sued??? It takes a lot of practice to bump-fire effectively and there is NO danger of run away recoil like on say an open-bolt full auto...the rifle moves back and forth and the trigger finger stays stationary. All it takes is slightly more or less pressure from the index finger and it stops working. A bump-fire stock isn't even required but it can help actually aim the thing if you're going to sidestep the stupid 1986 machine-gun Pseudo-ban which should never have been allowed to pass in the first place. Can't have 50 rounds in California? Sidestep. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/ff/f6/fbfff68958 d95719bcfae302158bdd56.jpg Can't have a full auto because there are only a finite amount of them and they cost more than a car? Sidestep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtEGonNmvuQ Want to sell loud pipes to everyone under the sun but they're not legal for on-road use...  Et cetera...I mean the ATF is already a de-facto judge and jury on a lot of firearms related things. "A shoestring is a machinegun. An oil filter is a suppressor." I'm amazed to see you guys so cavalier about your freedoms...the guy could have had a revolver and did untold damage sitting at that window... | ||
| Aesquire |
I've personally exceeded the fire rate of a bump stock without one. Sure, playing Halo may give me an edge over folk over 70 years old but I know I'm slow compared to the current generation. Going by the mislabeled photo above, also expect calls to ban "gun stands" and holographic sights. Seriously. They ban guns with a handle. Because it "makes it easier to use". One thing that may be true are reports of mood altering drugs used by the alleged murderer. This is a common factor in most mass murder cases. Often stopping taking anti depression and other psych drugs causes violent and suicidal thoughts and actions. But this aspect of mass murder cases is deliberately ignored because of lobbying efforts by the pharmaceutical industry and shrinks who claim that the drugs often do good and telling the truth about them would make people afraid or reluctant to take drugs that could help. There is something to that reasoning. Should I be less vigorous about defending my rights against lying elitists than drug companies defending their profits, selling drugs that are known to contribute to murder and suicide? Don't get me wrong. Despite the fact that most psych meds purpose is to get people to be numb and quiet instead of fixing their problems, they can be a great help to many. Some day we'll have a better understanding of individual reactions to these drugs and no doubt they'll be mandatory in a dystopian Brave New World. I'd never call for a ban on these drugs just because the failures cause mass murders. Just education. Compare and contrast my attitude and the gun banners. | ||
| Torquehd |
the guy could have had a revolver and did untold damage sitting at that window Apples to oranges. Yes he could have hurt and killed people. But not 500 with 50+ dead. Not with a revolver. Probably not without going cyclic. He could probably have had a higher kill rate with a suppressed AR taking precision shots over a longer duration of time, but that's not the route he went. I'm as pro 2nd amendment as anyone, but not only does John Q not NEED full auto; John Q should not be trusted with full auto. There is a route that the general public can purchase full auto, it's long and tedious, and justly so. I don't have a FFL and I don't know the whole process or the local laws. But, I believe it should be a difficult process and not as easy as a click on Amazon. | ||
| Torquehd |
Side note - I assume you can't use a "gun stand" (aka BIPOD for anyone with half a brain) with a "bump-stock". The whole weapon besides the stock has to be free to cycle fore/aft. | ||
| Gregtonn |
After all, the Founding Fathers never meant to include radical new technology like a handle or a lever. I understand that you were being facetious but the fallacy in that argument is obvious to all but the intentionally ignorant. The weapons the founders owned and used were state-of-the-art at that time. We the people are not allowed such freedom today. G | ||
| Henshao |
People privately owned warships in their day... | ||
| Aesquire |
Torquehd, while I basically agree you should have a permit to own a machine gun ( never mind it's not called a permit ) pretty much every gun control law since that 1934 rule is bogus and useless. And I'm agreeing with reservations. You know how many people have been killed by civilian legally owned full.auto guns since 1934? 4. ( doesn't count police shooting ) So we can keep that one. For now. I'd revoke almost all the other gun laws written since. Especially the ones aimed at the black population. | ||
| Henshao |
It's more than just a tax stamp. Machine guns made after 1986 are not transferable. Even the crappiest of the transferable guns are 10 grand. http://www.gunbroker.com/Machine-Guns/BI.aspx Of course, full-auto fire is scary and should be banned. After all, it's not those guys who're taking their time on each shot you should be worried about... | ||
| Ourdee |
I used to use a BMF activator. Every turn was 4 shots. Also had a HellFire trigger. It fired when pulled and fired when the front trigger was pushed. I could exceed the cyclic rate of everything I ever put them on. I never carried with them attached. Full auto is a waste of ammo. I had a select fire BB gun with a 3 shot burst option. I think that should be available to John Q. on carbines. I want to know how many wounded were bullet vs. stampede injuries. | ||
| Torquehd |
I want a 3-round burst BB gun! No use for it whatsoever, just fun for pl'-pl'-plinking! |
