| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
The P3AT is pretty remarkable given its cost and size. Don't let the low cost fool you, with a 15 minute bench "fluff and buff" (done before I ever shot it) its been one of the most reliable guns I ever used. A tie for a Sig P220 (jammed once and probably my fault), and right behind the M9 (jammed never). It is a darn shame about loosing all those guns in the boating accident. Yes, it is .380 not 9mm. But .380 is just a short 9mm cartridge, and remember this is a REALLY short barrel. I'm sure there is a difference, but I doubt it is that substantial, and then you factor in reliabilty, target recovery times and muzzle flash blindness... The phillips head looking solid .380 ammo has some pretty compelling ballistics. Even .380 ball isn't that bad... | ||
| Ourdee |
XDs in .45acp is the same size as the 9mm. At the edge of pocket gun for me. If I was in NY, NY, I'd probably carry my .357 snub nose with .38 special in it. Let's face it, I very close to 100% carry. Even if it is my Beretta 21a in .22 LR. Odd days may find me with an 11.5" AR in 5.56 or a 7.5" .454 in a shoulder rig. I live in Rockford where my neighbor across the street had their front door kicked in and invaded. I can look out my window and see where the car jacking happened. If I turn the corner, it is less than a hundred yards to where 2 peeps got shot at the light sitting in their car. My post office? Drive by got the guy walking out front on the sidewalk. This is the last few months. I gave up on the shotgun and lug the AR from room to room with 14 mags in a bag. The mags are in order from hollow points through ball to green tips. The AR is considered a pistol and makes the trip to the mailbox under my coat. I got caught out one time by 2 thugs on parole, Never Again. There. We are back on topic. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Did a little research. Interesting: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2.html So from a 2 inch barrel (p3at is 2.75): 9mm ball is 115 grain at 948 fps = 229 ft lbs .380 ball is 90 grains 852 fps = 145 ft lbs So in terms of muzzle energy for a short barrel with normalish ball ammo, .380 is 65% of 9mm. Is the extra 35% over penetration? Or not? With fancy ammo, the .380 can reach 90 grains at 1047 fps (219 ft lbs), but I'm a believer in shooting ammo and gun at the sweet spot they were meant to shoot at. For me, I want an adequate power factor and optimized portability, and the P3AT hits that sweet spot (IMHO). If I think I will actually be in a firefight, I'm using a glock 10mm, in the hands of my local deputy, while I am taking my family and running like hell. If I can't run, I'm grabbing the AK-74. Or would, except for that tragic row boat incident half way across Lake Erie where I lost them all. What was I thinking? | ||
| Reepicheep |
OK Ourdee, sounds like your concealed carry plan should include a guitar case.  | ||
| Ourdee |
Guitar case is too big. Tennis racket size.  | ||
| Aesquire |
For me it was no accident, I gave away everything in an after Christmas realization that the new Governor was a dishonest dictator who would ( and did ) make what I owned illegal. All went to good homes. Oddly I don't remember anyone's name or address. Must have been the tequila. But having nothing but an axe and crossbow is bugging me. I haven't been to the range in over a year. re: 9mm vs. .380 Yes, the very best of New .380 ammo will penetrate enough, maybe, hopefully. But. 9mm Parabellum will do the job better. No one want to get shot with anything, don't get me wrong. But it's not about hunting or killing. ( pretty much every land animal in the last century has been killed by a .22 ) It's about stopping the fight. That's a MUCH harder and much argued about thing. Energy isn't all the answer. Ball ammo will penetrate, but lacks the damage potential I want. I'll skip an argument on terminal ballistics right now, thank you. Ball ammo puts you back in the 19th century. We can do better. These things are a balance. You have to reach the vital organs or it won't stop the fight. the bullet has to do enough damage that it lets the angry out. Fast expansion may make a bullet do scary damage but not reach the inside parts to let the angry out. That's why bird shot is a bad idea for home defense. Bad. Bad. Bad. Large, ugly, wounds that don't let the angry out but look great ( from the other guy's lawyer's perspective ) during your trial when the guy who was going to rape your wife in front of You and then kill you both sues you for violating his right to do so. So, preferably a 9mm. I don't dress for belt holsters most of the time so... small gun pocket carry. Thank you all, I'll keep listening. Btw... have you seen this? Brilliant. http://www.recluseholster.com/ | ||
| Hootowl |
Pat, Exactly why the underwood ammo is so good. Big wound channel, zero expansion. It's a solid bullet. | ||
| Aesquire |
Is the extra 35% over penetration? Or not? No.... It's not that simple. First... 2 factors. Penetration and size of hole. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/1 6/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/ Penetration should be by FBI standards 12 inches minimum. It's not a bad arbitrary number IMHO. 12-18 is "enough" most of the time. That's why with ball ammo .45 is better than 9mm Luger, because the hole is bigger, and penetration is enough. Simple. But ball is old school and not as effective as technology gives us this century. One bullet at .380 speeds will not open and penetrate deeply. At 9mm Luger speeds will penetrate enough and open up to half an inch. At .357 Sig speeds it may blow up too quick and not make it 8 inches. You engineer the bullet & velocity to get the desired results. For civilian shooting we can ignore barrier performance past heavy clothing. Police expect to shoot into and out of cars. Through walls. We don't. That's why in many cases civilian ammo ( Hornady Critical Defense )is BETTER for self defense in MOST situations than Law Enforcement ammo. ( Horandy Critical Duty ) Maybe the new "spin damage" monolithic rounds ( like the underwood ) will be the answer to the challenge. I look forward to trying it out. Ruger LCR in 9mm? Anyone used a LCR? | ||
| Hootowl |
Repost, but worth reviewing. | ||
| Rick_a |
I still haven't found what I'm looking for...in regard to a pocket auto. The alloy J frames, albeit a bit on the large side, work quite well. With +p ammo they're a good compromise of power, accuracy, and control. I do like 'em.  20160407_115830 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr Maybe the Taurus Spectrum will be the one I've been waiting for   | ||
| Reepicheep |
What Hootowl said. I'm as civilian as a civilian gets. I've never shot anything bigger than a pigeon, and that was with a .177 caliber air rifle. (But I did get to where I could hit them pretty regularly at 50 yards with iron sights.) But from a pure physics standpoint, if I can reliably and consistently, from a distance of 10 yards, make one or more half inch wide holes that are 18 inches deep through two layers of denim, I'm declaring "problem solved" and moving on to factors of reliability, usability, then cost. Perhaps I am a fool. It wouldn't be the first time. | ||
| Torquehd |
Police expect to shoot into and out of cars. Through walls. We don't. Over penetration is one of my biggest fears, should I ever have to use my pistol in a populated area. | ||
| Aesquire |
Reep, your criteria, half inch hole 18 inches deep, where you want it, is logical, well founded, and IMHO a good choice. You might indeed be a fool, but not on this subject. ( and aren't we all about some things ) Torque, I used to worry about that more, but simply by using modern ammunition and not 19th century ball ammo, that's generally a Non-issue. The monolithic spin/damage high penetration rounds ARE an issue in a house, but the ones designed to go only 18 inches in gel are not. The biggest problem is not through shots on the monster in the living room. As I say above, just use good ammo. The REAL problem is misses. You are responsible for every round, every pellet, down range. The mother on her porch 2 blocks down, your child in the nursery, both are your responsibility. Read the Box-o-truth guy's work, although less scholarly than some, it's practical, if your concern is house & apartment walls. The problem is if it's going to work on Goblins it probably is going through a wall. I very much like some ammo that is marginal on Goblins but doesn't go through many walls. ( Federal Guard Dog Civilian load ) I've been re-thinking that liking. I still think it's a rational compromise. Remember... Birdshot is bad. Ball is bad. Those 12 ga. dragon breath loads are BAD in the house. Do Not Use. for home defense. Period. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2012/ 3/16/federal-guard-dog/ a 2012 review. Obsolete by phone standards.  | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/6/6 /six-things-to-consider-when-choosing-self-defense -handgun-ammunition/ | ||
| Reepicheep |
I am so busted with the pellets and responsibility. I can only hope that the high drag coefficient for it's weight and the sparse population density of my 12 year old self's small town home meant that none of the many thousands of irresponsibly shot crossman .177 pellets ever landed anywhere harmful. Just part of my karma I am paying off... | ||
| Ourdee |
I used to be in the 12 gauge or big pistol camp for home defense. After a lot of researching, that changed in the past year. I now prefer an AR in 5.56 with an 11.5" barrel. First 2 magazines are .223 55 grain HP. I'm in the nine ring at 50 yards. Which is also approx. where out of 11.5" the FPS drops back below the crazy stuff that round can do at speed. It goes pew 29 times before reloading. And much more surgical than the scatter gun. While overseas in the Air Force, I carried The GAU-5. We just called it a GAU. It had a 10.5" barrel and suppressor. Not much at suppressing though. For the same length I can have an extra inch of barrel and 125+ FPS more. After all the years away, I picked it up and it felt like part of me. Every function is just where it should be. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I picked up a Taurus PT-709 slim. Pretty nice little CC weapon. Took it to the range a few times, with disassembly and component lap and polish in between. Over 500 rounds thru it with not a single malfunction. It is the easiest hand gun I ever had to take down and clean. Very simple. Not exactly a tack driver for sure, but It will do a great job in it's intended purpose. Small, with noting protruding to get hung up in clothing if you need to get it going quickly. | ||
| Macbuell |
I'm a fan of 9mm Carbine for home defense. Super accurate and Super easy to shoot and out of a 16 inch barrel it has plenty of stopping power. | ||
| Zac4mac |
We have actually had a couple of home invasions in my neighborhood in the last year. I keep my 1911 and a 12ga scattergun by the bed, along with a flashlight, a nightscope and a very strong green laser. Both guns have small-shot 1st round followed by Silvertips or Starfires in the .45 and 00 in the Winchester. I like options. Z | ||
| Aesquire |
People often forget Taurus. And revolvers. Time to haunt the used section in the small shops for a Taurus snub nose .38 in titanium. Like .44 magnums & other cannons ultralight snubbies get traded in a lot because they take dedicated practice to master.... and for many the pain/pleasure ratio is poor. The cheating answer is to practice a lot with light loads and enough with defensive loads. I would put hundreds of field loads through a shotgun for every magnum. In shotguns you want the same velocity but light payloads. So all day with the 3/4 oz. Field load and less than a dozen shots on geese with the 1 1/2 oz. Magnum work out fine..... same velocity same swing. Hand guns are different. If you can load light ones to the same point of impact as the carry load, you're golden. | ||
| Ducbsa |
Never Again for the clowns who decided to rob a gun store http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/01/09 /video-gun-store-owner-shoots-through-counter-kill s-robbery-suspect/#disqus_thread | ||
| Ourdee |
I like the Rossi in stainless. M877 2" barrel in .357. Not a light weight, but that's part of it's charm for me. | ||
| Rick_a |
Robbing a gun store. Not quite the best of targets for an attempted robbery. | ||
| Ourdee |
I want to know what pistol and ammo was used for that result. Laid him out and disarmed him all at once. Those clowns did not play out enough scenarios. | ||
| Court |
What broke the glass counter top? | ||
| Ourdee |
The store owner appears to have went down on a knee and fired through the glass counter. | ||
| Ourdee |
Weird stuff in that video. As perp # 1 clears the column, there appears to be a dropped magazine at his foot on the floor. Perp #1 reached into his waist to retrieve a second pistol with his left hand and raises it. The bullet strikes Perp #1 after breaking the counter top and perp #1 goes down dropping both pistols. His left foot slowly lays down to the left. | ||
| 46champ |
Watching the film and reading the comments the glass counter top was broke either by the owners first 2 shots going thru the case and the shock wave braking it or the perp getting off a round as he was falling backward after being hit. I am in favor of the shock wave theory. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Jimmy Groover is a lifelong friend to one of my employees. I'm told he is somewhat of an emotional wreck for having to take the life of that scumbag. I hope I never have to hurt anybody like that, but I'll be damned if I'm going to hesitate. Jimmy is an example of a righteous shopkeeper defending his livelihood. |
