| Author | Message | ||
     Henshao |
I think shotguns recoil heavily enough to knock someone down who's not braced for it. Mid-stride, or weight on their back foot, combined with the surprise. It wouldn't knock them across the room like in the movies but I could see someone getting sat on their ass. I'm probably just being pedantic though. So, everyone knows that centerfire rifles generally go through kevlar like it's cotton, right? On a tangent, what weapon do you think is most successfully a cross between an axe and a spear? Halberd maybe? Zweihander? | ||
| Aesquire |
...but I could see someone getting sat on their ass. I'm probably just being pedantic though. .... Sure, that can happen with a fist or a bullet. and.... it takes one to know one... The fly across the room stuff is pure Hollywood. ....most successfully a cross between an axe and a spear? Hmm. Good question. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd A good choice, poke & hack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_(weapon) A Bill is really designed to beat armor, and take a guy off a horse. Still, pretty good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voulge A little different in how the blade is attached, and weight of head. Really, a lot of the fine distinctions between European pole arms are post facto, by historians. Some Glaives had heavier blades than some Voulges, etc. etc. Basically axe, blade, spike, backspikes, the basic ideas, mixed and matched to fit the fashion of the time. They varied a lot. While some were "issue" weapons, semi mass produced by local blacksmiths or central armories, they were not so expensive that an individual couldn't have one made with the features he liked. You also had a parallel line of evolution with "winged" spears, ( with slicing protrusions ) spears with hooks, or blade breakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(weapon) I prefer either tang construction, or better yet, external tangs front & rear to reinforce the shaft. Then there's the "sword on a stick" family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovnya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guandao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata You can see the family resemblance. Again, some variation, with some hooks and back spikes being used. ( if you make the blade single edge with a strong spine, a back spike gives you an extra striking surface, with minimal weight, at the expense of "spear penetration" ) All in all the Naginata may be the best of this breed. Certainly the most elegant. Best? depends on size & style. Speed vs. mass. Now.... the Zweihander is a whole different animal, being in the "honking big sword" school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_sw ords#Longsword_and_bastard_sword And a long, lengthy discussion of it's own. There are extant manuals from the 15th century on on fighting with 2 handed swords. This one is my Brother In law's favorite. http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Combat-Fifteenth-Ce ntury-Swordfighting-Close-Quarter/dp/1848327706 Here's an opinionated fellow, but his thesis is correct. This type of combat is brutal and violent. http://io9.com/5918644/swordfighting-not-what-you- think-it-is | ||
| Henshao |
I really asked the wrong guy, didn't I??? | ||
| Aesquire |
Yep. For SCA rattan combat, you are allowed a 6' pole arm with padding or rubber axe or hammer heads, with the striking surfaces ( assumed to be sharp ) marked in contrasting duct tape. ( which leaves marks on armor, showing a good blow ) Or a 7 1/2' unpadded pole arm, no axe/hammer heads. Both types optionally use a Padded thrusting tip, if used for thrusting. Both types work well, and approximate a Halberd and Naginata, respectively. Pretty accurately, really. I've done pell practice with live steel, and it's close. Choice is based on style. If you favor "Hulk Smash" you go with a Halberd type, and if you favor "Swirly Pokey"... Naginata. The difference, fancy names aside, between a Pole Arm and a Sword is the handle vs. blade ratio. More handle, Pole Arm. More blade, Sword. ( Actual Historians just shuddered in the night at that over simplification  ) | ||
| Henshao |
As I debate starting a new thread, considering the tangential relationship this conversation thread has to home defense, I ask: can you stab with a Bill? Some folks call it a kaiser blade... | ||
| Aesquire |
A Naginata, however, is a bit unwieldy in a hallway of a modern house.  Now, for Home use.... An aluminum Little League bat, Dogs are great, shotgun, large caliber hand gun, Carbine, Mortar, Howitzer, and orbital crowbars. BWAH HA HA HA! I might have got a little carried away there.  | ||
| Henshao |
For home defense, just use a guy who just finished changing the belt on an M2 Cyclone. He'll spread their freaking frame, alright... Okay, hijack officially over | ||
| Aesquire |
can you stab with a Bill? Sure... Depends on how it's made. How it's sharpened. It's a Butcher's tool. You sure don't want to run into one pointed at you. Videos NOT KID SAFE. ( Cutting Pig carcasses ) http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/89MEN/MAA_ENGLISH _BILL.aspx http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/89MSW/MAA_SWISS_H ALBERD.aspx Then there's the Butt Spike, used to defend at close quarters. ( which from a martial arts view, means you use staff techniques as well as bladed weapon ) You look into Asian designs you see all sorts of pointy things. From a practical view...  I do wonder how the Judge in a home defense case is going to react to a historic weapon fatality. | ||
| Rick_a |
I'd like to get one of these eventually: http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/97THKL/TWO_HANDED _KATANA_MACHETE.aspx  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bANlFuNOOyQ It ain't fancy, but aught to git 'er done. | ||
| Aesquire |
Just thinking about the luminol traces after using that makes me shudder. | ||
| Gaesati |
There are definite merits to a goedendag or plancon de picot. Simple to make, easy to develop a minimal level of competency. | ||
| Aesquire |
True. With any weapons you need practice. Use a Pell. | ||
| Ezblast |
I don't know about that - Japanese houses are small, yet female samurai where very successful defending their homes with the Naginata and there was a running debate for a long time in samurai circles about which was a more efficient killing weapon - the naginata or the katana sword. I am sure though that they where referring to the shorter 5 + foot naginata which was a smaller katana blade attached to a pole equally as long as the blade - that was a bad ass weapon, especially when compared to the longer version which was a bit unwieldy in close quarters, but is the more modern type you see depicted in today's world. EZ | ||
| Fresnobuell |
@aesquire. You must have LOVED Deadliest Warrior on Spike? Or hated it because it was full of crap? I have always like ancient arms and considered collecting some stuff. Conterfeits have me intimidated tho. Some that stuff looks so real. | ||
| Aesquire |
So full. So much apples & oranges. On of those shows you laugh at until it makes you angry. ( hint, guns beat knives..... Duh. ) Don't collect old stuff ( Roman, Samurai ) unless you are rich. Best leave it to museums. The metals corrode with contact with skin oils. Any armor you see in a museum you can touch, is probably replica. ( I probably know who made it.... I've polished and repaired stuff made by the Armorer for The Met, and other museums. ) Yes, the "undiscovered secrets" of the Ancient World are nice, but most has long since been figured out. You want a brand new sword? There are several makers that can forge one for you. As good as any this side of Masumune. ( hey, Masters are Masters. You can get a great painting, but it's not a Da Vinci ) You want tough, easy to maintain, and just as functional as the original? I know guys that make modern damascus from stainless steel cable. My carry knife when camping is Norwegian stainless damascus made in Helle. http://www.helle.no/products/knives/ | ||
| Fresnobuell |
So I bought a S&W MP15 .223, whicH I am sure most of you know is a civilian semi-auto version of the famous M-16. I have long been interested in adding this to the collection and it will serve as a plinking toy. I do plan to build it up as it will also be quite useful if the shit ever really does hit the fan, so to speak. Cue the can of worms, but since this MIGHT be my home defense weapon of choice, what home defense .223 rounds does the all-knowing Badweb forum recommend? Also, I am torn between a real scope or a red-dot. I believe there are hybrids that try to be the best of both worlds. i am not interested in spending more on the optics than the gun, so does anyone have a good recommendation on optics in the sub-$300 range? This weapons seems to be both a close-quarters combat weapon and also has the ability to reach out when needed. Of course, specific optics required for either task (unless one of these hybrid scopes with the red-dot reticle over the scope actually works as advertised.) Opinions? | ||
| Henshao |
If you go with a red dot sight, I recommend a Lucid HD red dot. Any will do, they are in your price range and run on AA's. I will use a CR123-powered device when I can go to 7-11 and grab a 20 pack of them at 2am in any Podunk town in America. Magnification is a very personal question and some people really want it whereas others see it as unnecessary. And if you have good eyes, you can hit a man without magnification from a long ways off. You can't necessarily pick which part of him to hit, but you can hit him. For home defense, that seems adequate. Scopes have their drawbacks in a close-range home defense situation. You can accidentally leave them on the wrong magnification, they aren't generally great in low-light. A 1-4x illuminated reticle scope is better than a red dot sight with a flip-to-side magnifier, though. Magnifiers suck. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Funny you brought this up... I'm looking for a combat tested optic for my AR carbine today. I like the EoTech and countless soldiers use them in the sandbox. Alternatively, I like the Mepro M21, since it's tritium and fiber optic, so it never needs batteries. | ||
| Crusty |
A neighbor asked me what I thought he needed to defend his home. I suggested a 9mm, a couple clips, and a box of shells. A few days later, he sent me this picture and asked how to make it work.  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I know the Eotech are out of my price range. I will look into the Mepro. Do soldiers have to buy their own equipment if it's something other than standard issue? Not knowing if Eotech is standard issue for US Military, if it's NOT, would soldiers have to pay for the "upgrade" EoTech? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Something like this? Does this scope allow for quick target acquisition using both eyes at close range? At 1x of course. http://shop.opticsplanet.com/vortex-crossfire-ii-1 -4x24mm-riflescope.html?_iv_code=VX-RS-CFRII1-CF2- 31037&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaig n=plusbox-beta&gclid=CPKL97ehh8oCFQWUfgodxDUBOQ (Message edited by fresnobuell on December 31, 2015) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
John, you got me rolling! | ||
| Henshao |
I think you would be well served by that Vortex. You will have to find a good way to attach it to the rifle, though, and that is almost equally as large of a field of choices. A monobloc quick-release scope mount might do; be sure to match the size of the scope tube. I probably should have mentioned scope rings earlier. (Message edited by henshao on December 31, 2015) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Personally, I have the twins throw their plastic toys all over the house and have set up baby gates. I doubt a burglar would look forward to getting through any of that. (I sure don't!) | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews/reviews-red-do t-scopes.html It is considered normal to spend as much on optics as the rifle. More is even rational. For ammo, Hornady TAP. ( Flame War begin!! ) there are more than one weight available, go with the ammo that is most accurate in YOUR gun. 2 apparently identical guns can shoot very differently with the same ammo. Think of it this way, when the Bang happens. the whole gun, and especially the barrel, ring like a bell. Vibrate in 3 dimensions. ideally the bullet leaves the barrel at the end of the tiny swing as the barrel vibrates. Not in the middle of the stroke. That's why hand loaders get fussy and retentive. 31 1/2 grains of powder X puts all the bullets in one hole. 31 1/4 grain scatters them all over. or the other way around. Then there is rifling twist. longer bullets need to be spun faster ( higher twist ) to be stable. If the guns likes 55 grain and hates 77, use 55. ball ammo is for practice, and when you are forced to by rules. Expanding bullets are for hunting and defense. soft point, plastic tipped, hollow points, all work. There's a lot of discussion & links on the "Which platform for concealed carry?" thread. look there so we don't get all confused on stuff. Please take a look. There are many good reliable ammo makers out there. I personally like "holographic sight" type dot sights. They obscure less vision, and are usually smaller and snag on clothes & doors & everything less than a tube type dot sight. Ones that use cheaper AAA or AA batteries are bigger than ones that use watch batteries... duh. The best use a tritium light source that will still work when the battery dies, ( for several years, not forever ) and it's dark. Not usually very visible during the day. Some use fiber optics to illuminate the dot, and that means in bright light, the dot is bright, and low light the dot is dim. Which is good. you need another light source in the dark, either battery or tritium. And for the ultimate in versatility, the New Toy from Leupold, https://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/d-evo/ Note. This is not a red dot sight as we are discussing. It is a 6x telescopic sight that is meant to be used WITH a red dot sight. It does not look through the red dot, but around. The "disadvantage" is that it must be sighted in at 200 yards to work properly. Unlike the "traditional" set up where the telescopic sight is the primary optic, and a red dot is mounted so you can shift the gun to use it at close range, the D-EVO is the Secondary sight, with the red dot of your choice being the Primary optic. I want one. Leupold scopes are not cheap. Some complain they are too expensive. Certainly the top top top of the line are very expensive, but the same is true for the top of the line Nikon or other high end brand. Leupold also has a lifetime warranty, and often will ship you a scope to use while yours is being repaired. ( and, sneaky guys they are, often send a more expensive scope, making you want to upgrade. ) I would avoid cheap chinese junk. I had a Barska scope, it was adequate, but a little dim, and really wanted your eye dead center, where a better scope would be more forgiving on eye placement. The Barska spotting scope I tried in a brightly lit Gander Mountain was so dim it was useless. Period. If you pay $100 for a red dot. ( or amber triangle/green donut, whatever ) don't expect it to live that long. Not all stuff made in China is junk. ( but it's not a really stupid way to bet... ) Expect a $500 MeproLight or EOTech, or.... to be better. Best thing is to buy what you like and test the daylights out of it... ( which is a sneaky way to say practice, practice, practice. ) and if it breaks.... let us know, and upgrade. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Is this D-evo + "red-dot sight of choice" the best way to get both close combat and distance accuracy? Ideally, this is what I am looking for. Am I crazy or did I see a red-dot sight mounted on top of a more traditional scope?
This makes sense. I never really thought about it like that. | ||
| Henshao |
I like to buy el cheapo soft points and just use them for everything. Keeps things simple. https://www.freedommunitions.com Solid source if you're one of those kooks who likes to buy American. Maybe some kind of Buell owner. | ||
| Aesquire |
Am I crazy or Don't confuse threads. Yes, you saw those. You do have to move your head. There is also a cute little "iron sight" that mounts to your front grip. you just tilt the rifle a few degrees and use it instead of the scope... or.... http://173.236.12.51/testing/index.php?nID=sights& cID=Sights&pID=sights&sID=tactical or http://www.diamondhead-usa.com/collections/d45/pro ducts/diamondhead-d-45-swing-sights-integrated-sig hting-system http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/sight- sets/ar-15-m16-rapid-transition-sights-prod41357.a spx But you see, all of them require you to change positions on the rifle. If your Primary sighting system is to be 1x and low profile, and you just want magnification for the rare long shots, ( under siege by terrorists who objected to your cartoon contest, maybe ) the Leupold system is perfect. not cheap, but perfect. The alternative is a flip up magnifier for your red dot. IMHO a weapon you are likely to bounce off walls, car doors, etc. is best served with solid mounts. The less obtrusive the better. Good quick release mounts are fine. ( some are crap ) If you are doing long range work primarily, ( like my old Bushmaster Varminter ) then it makes perfect sense to have a variable long range optic, like a 4x-12x. ( the Leupold is only a 6x, plenty for most shooting ) If you want that to double for close work in a pinch, a red dot at an angle on the scope base is fine. YMMV. You can spend a couple of days just looking at all the iron sight choices. As for mounts... Troy, Daniel Defense, Leupold, all make rock solid stuff. I'm interested in other's opinions on this subject. | ||
| Henshao |
It is very easy to get lost in sights, optics, and mounts. The rifle is the easy choice by comparison. Battery powered (Reflex), no battery (most scopes) ('iron' sights), optional battery (illuminated scopes, $$$Trijicon$$$) variable magnification, fixed magnification, unmagnified, open sights 1moa dot, 2moa dot, chevron, duplex, etc 30mm tube, 1 inch tube, one-piece mount, rings, base and rings, height above rail, quick release lever, quick release screws, or no quick release With all this being considered I remain confident in that 1-4x Vortex you found. The eye relief isn't amazing but it really hits a lot of bases for you. On the low end it is fast and easy for both-eyes-open use, such as in your house. The illuminated reticle allows you to aim even when lighting conditions wouldn't allow you to see fine crosshairs alone, and it also gives you a reflexive aiming point. But the scope is not totally dependent upon batteries and will still serve you if they die. With 4x magnification on the top end you can place your rounds with more confidence at a distance, if you so choose. Finally, I mainly hear good things about Vortex. Just be sure the windage and elevation turrets either have caps or lock into place. You don't want them moving around if stuff brushes them. As far as quick detach mounts go, I personally wouldn't scoff at taking a chance on "cheaper" ones, say under 50 dollars, because you can almost always find reviews online for stuff. Just make sure they're an appropriate height for an AR. Around 1.4" I think. Unlike say, an AK or M14, the AR buttstock has no drop to it and so with your cheek welded, the sights have to come up a ways to eye level. | ||
| Rick_a |
I like Leupold. Bought this one.  That's a 1x. Had them make me this one:  1-4x with an old school reticle. Nothing's cooler than the old Dragunov reticle, which makes for a nice down and dirty combat optic.  That's an actual reticle picture of mine illuminated with the cover on. |
