| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
His experiences are probably not with hollow point rounds. | ||
| Henshao |
Although I agree, I prefer to use the term expanding ammunition. It is a common misconception that hollow points are the universal answer when expansion is desired, but they tend to perform poorly out of a rifle: they expand so violently, with the extreme impact velocity coming out of a rifle, that they virtually explode without penetrating very deep. Further muddying the waters are open-tip rounds being referred to as hollow points. Such match-grade bullets are open-tipped for ballistic reasons. How common are these misconceptions? http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/01/army_jag_ban s_e.html This is all FYI; like the man said, "not enough penetration will get you killed." Be sure that the ammo in question is actually expanding ammo, if you are going to use it defensively. | ||
| Robertl |
It is interesting to see the different views. Most seem to focus on guns, then a few on dogs. If a dog is barking most thieves will move on to the next house. Not all but most. If adopting a medium to large dog be sure to check your home owner's policy as many today will drop or deny your claim due to breed restrictions. There is a rescue for every breed so no excuse, adopt and save a life. There are things to deter thrives that do not rely on violent responses. If they really want in, they will find a way. If your home appears more difficult or secure they may move on. Guess it is my anxiety but I prefer to avoid conflicts, especially violent or life changing. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I totally agree Robert and will ad; my first line of alertness/defense is a motion sensor light that comes on and also triggers a very loud radio. Next is a mellow 95 lb. Alaskan Malamute that never barks until someone rings the doorbell or knocks and he does that very vigorously sounding highly bad ass. As you have said, its my hope that a perp will just move on not wanting any kind of confrontation. Now that perp, high on meth, or something else is another story and my demeanor changes as needed. 25 years of CC experience and thankfully no confrontations. Avoidance by all means, if possible. Bob | ||
| Alfau |
If a dog is barking open the gate and come back later. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Idiot. Like I'm going to leave my dogs outside when I'm not home. | ||
| Etennuly |
WELL! There we have it! Burglar eaten by an eleven foot alligator! Talk about a watch dog! The guy was found ten days after his planned heist.....gator poop! Palm Bay Florida. Saddest part is the gator will likely have to be put down now that it has proven a man eater. | ||
| Henshao |
This is why I keep Komodo dragons... | ||
| P_squared |
Layers, always think in layers. Some “quick” points to consider for the “basic” family: 1) Landscaping - trim those bushes around your house so there's no "easy" place to hide bad guys trying to gain access. 2) Lighting - Outdoor lighting, including motion sensors, are a must. Most burglars don't want to be spotlighted while attempting to gain entry. 3) Doors & windows - Spend a few $$ and upgrade where it makes sense, to include the locking mechanisms. It's VERY easy to force a door with a single lock. It's VERY easy to open a sliding glass door. It's VERY easy to break out a window in the back where neighbors can't see. 4) Alarm systems – Do your research & invest in 1. That piercing screech in the middle of the night when a window is broken/opened will definitely wake you up. 5) Dogs – great for pets. Not so great for depending on early warning. Unless the dog is trained/bred to guard the house, don’t depend upon it to do so. 6) Evening preps – There’s a cellphone, flashlight & firearm at my bedside every night. The phone is to dial 911. The flashlight is to positively ID threats in the dark. The firearm is to engage threats if I need to. 7) Have a plan based upon your house. It’s easy for me, as everyone sleeps on the 2nd floor. Grab the kids & wife, throw them in the master closet. Wife dials 911 & stays on the phone with them while I take position overwatching the top of the stairs (chokepoint). I hold that position until the cavalry arrives or all threats are neutralized at the chokepoint. 8) Make sure everyone in your family knows the plan & knows what to do. It’s all well and good that you know it, but when your 5 year old is screaming in the middle of the night because the alarm is going off & doesn’t want to leave their room to bunker down in your closet, what are you going to do? 9) Rifle>Shotgun>Pistol – A semi-auto carbine is the best weapon for home defense. If you’re worried about over penetration, etc., you will be amazed at the advancements made in modern bullets that are available to you. I have an AR-15 that fits the bill. Compact, easy to manipulate, plenty of ammo, weapon light mounted to aid in positive identification of target, etc., etc. I personally look at the 12 ga. Pump as a backup/primary for the wife in the bunker. Folks have a high tendency to short stroke pumps in high stress situations, and contrary to popular belief, you do have to aim with one to hit your target. Pistols are the last resort. Accuracy in high stress situations is incredibly degraded. Stopping power/transfer of kinetic energy to the target is less than a rifle or shotgun round at the same distance, etc., etc. 10) Training – It’s all well & good to have a plan, but if you never train, your plan will fail. If you never practice shooting (loading, reloading, low light situations, etc.), you will fail. 11) Know your laws & keep your mouth shut – If you have to implement your plan & it results in someone’s death inside your home, the only words that should leave your mouth when talking with the police are, “I was in fear of my life. I’m shaken up & would like to talk to my lawyer before answering any further questions.” That’s it. End. All stop. You don’t say anything else until you talk to a lawyer. 12) Have other firearms & good friends/family – The cops will likely take the weapon(s) you used to defend your home as evidence until the investigation is over. The family/friends/acquaintances of the person(s) you shot may not be so understanding of your actions, and may wish harm upon you & yours. You should have backup firearms to protect your family & yourself. You may also want to have your family stay with family/friends at another location until the storm clears. 13) Seek counseling – You may or may not be traumatized by the event. I guaranty your children will be. You did nothing wrong, but seeking professional help to get you & your family past the fear & trauma is the right thing to do. The above are just my personal opinion based upon my experience. YMMV. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
My shotgun has a tactical LED light mounted to the barrel. Nice for illuminating the soon to be dead perp or identifying a friendly in the dark, but I do give up the element of surprise. Not sure I would want to be lurking in the dark with a stranger in the house, either tho....Creepy as hell. | ||
| Aesquire |
Nice for illuminating the soon to be dead perp or identifying a friendly in the dark, but I do give up the element of surprise. You also give up the element of "oops I shot my xxx" so all in all being able to identify the potential target is worth it. In Spades. I just bought 2 "Infapower" flashlight "tire thumper"s. While the Kree LED is pretty good, and I don't mind the fixed focus, overall, it's junk. The handle part has crap machined threads and actually hitting a "tire" would probably break it off. Very disappointed. They are going back with hostile letters. Why did I pick such a toy? 20+ years of experience with full contact SCA fighting, with armor & rattan weapons. A nightstick or little league bat is a weapon I have fairly high proficiency with and can choose the lethality level. OTOH since I have an easily verified history in the martial arts It WILL be assumed that I am completely responsible for any injuries I dish out, just like a police officer with his issue weapons. A local Deputy I know once informed me that if he ever heard I killed a man with a stick, he would know it was entirely purposeful, that I should be very careful choosing my lawyer, & never demonstrate my skill in court. ( this after he watched me do pell work while we were having a BBQ at my house. ) | ||
| Slaughter |
24/7 lighted flagpole. It is said that burglars seeing a flag will often assume an armed homeowner (they'd be right) - then a monitored burglar/fire alarm on house and shop. Failning those - Remington 870, #6 shot then 00 buck then slug. Police bore, rifle sight.  (Message edited by slaughter on December 09, 2015) | ||
| Henshao |
Why birdshot, buckshot and then slug? Do you intend to shoot someone without killing them? | ||
| Slaughter |
Figure contact range is likely less than 10 feet. I'm assuming an incapacitating first shot. High hit probability. Minimal wall penetration. At 10 feet with police bore, shot pattern is about 10 inches (if I recall) | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-91-le ts-talk-about-buckshot/ Let’s put some false rumors to rest: 1. Birdshot is a good self defense load. This is false for several reasons. The main reason is that no birdshot load will reach the required 12 inches of penetration needed for STOPPING a bad guy from whatever he is doing to threaten your life. Birdshot makes a very nasty, yet shallow wound, and will not reach the vital organs or CNS. “Might” birdshot work? Sure. But why depend on “might” when “better” is available. Use birdshot for little birds. Use buckshot for bad guys. 2. Buckshot penetrates too much and will go through walls in my home. Sure it will. Any load that will STOP a bad guy, will also penetrate several interior walls, as I proved. Until someone invents a phaser, like on Star Trek, any load that will STOP a bad guy will also penetrate several walls. http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-83-fi ghting-with-a-shotgun/ 3. Shot spread – Buckshot tends to spread from an open bore at about 1 inch per yard. At longer ranges, some pellets may miss the bad guy. Where will they go? You had better know, as you are responsible for every pellet. http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-143-w hat-is-the-best-weapon-for-home-defense-a-serious- discussion/ I more or less agree with these guys. I used to have what I considered to be the best home shotgun, the Winchester "Lady Defender" a classic pump action 20 ga. Great balance of firepower vs. recoil. I'd trust it to do the job. Then I got a Winchester SuperX2 Turkey gun, 12 ga., and the gas action knocks perceived recoil down to about the same as the 20 ga.. And because of the high probability of short stroking a pump, a gas operated Browning or Winchester would be my choice for home defense shotgun. If you are a Remington or Benelli or....... fan, I think your choice is fine. The biggest downside of shotguns, besides huge recoil, ( we'll count fireball as good and bad ) is the slowness of reloads, so I suggest practicing. For a suggested Kata, load one shoot one load two shoot one load three shoot two load 4 shoot three........ until the gun is fully loaded. | ||
| Slaughter |
Good to know^^ I was opting for disabling high Hit probability with first round and second to finish the job - assuming ONE assailant and worst case scenario - waking up from a sleep, total darkness. 9mm is a few hundred foot-pounds of energy on target, 12 gage is a few THOUSAND foot pounds of energy. Mythbuster's show on impact energy (230 grain .45 ACP is 15 grams, 613 MPH is 900 fps)  Need to read up on Aesquire's links. | ||
| Henshao |
A lot of people like energy. I personally consider it to be a meaningless measurement. To commandeer a phrase, "until someone invents a Phaser," that is, an actual energy weapon...the mechanism in which firearms stop threats is via penetration. Destruction of tissue causing either rapid blood loss, or cessation of nervous system function. Valid measurements include penetration depth and wound channel diameter. "Hydrostatic shock" is always a great effect to have happen but is unreliable as a stopping mechanism and mostly happens out of rifles. Look at it this way. People from all different walks of life have all different levels of resistant to being knocked out by a heavy blow. You'll never know if the guy you're shooting at is Marvin Hagler or Roy Jones Jr so stick to what is guarenteed to work. As an aside, shooting to incapacitate is going to be a tough action to defend. Either another person requires deadly force to prevent serious harm to yourself or they don't. | ||
| Slaughter |
To quote Elmer Keith - Texas Ranger and inventor of the .357 Magnum, "HITS COUNT" | ||
| Pwnzor |
.357 is hard to beat for effectiveness. Put a hole ALL THE WAY THROUGH your target. | ||
| No_rice |
 | ||
| Henshao |
"For when there is a burglar behind kevlar" | ||
| Rick_a |
 Is best. | ||
| Aesquire |
Slaughter, sorry if I'm excessively evangelical on the subject. I used to think the same as you, pattern load, increasing lethality as the threat refuses to go away, worried about over penetration in a suburban environment. Probably used the same reasoning as you, got to the same place. Then I found out I was wr... I was wr.... I was mistaken. Slugs just over penetrate like crazy. They'll go into the next house and still be lethal. Birdshot bites you in the Butt 2 different ways. A full load of birdshot, #6, #8, no matter, right in the chest will with very high probability not penetrate the rib cage with the bone, muscle & tendon. Oh, it'll hurt like hell, but won't stop the fight. I noted above some days ago, this has resulted in getting killed. Multiple cases. OTOH, the wounds, while shallow, are large and nasty. The same perp you shot with birdshot, if you are lucky and he left, will certainly be asked by his lawyer to take off his shirt at YOUR trial. There will be retching and sobbing from the audience and jury, and the fellow that you may have interrupted raping your 6 year old, ( which will NOT come up at your Trial. ) will get awarded more money than you make. The myth that you don't have to aim a shotgun is another that can get you killed. I want to emphasize.... At longer ranges, some pellets may miss the bad guy. Where will they go? You had better know, as you are responsible for every pellet. Yes, they do make a spreader choke that will spray shot in a horizontal line. Great! now you have a chance to completely miss any vital parts of the bad guy, and you've trashed a much larger part of your house..... and the buckshot still is going to go through a wall and possibly hurt your kids in the next room. In fact, you've just improved the chances of tragedy both ways. | ||
| Henshao |
Furthermore, what if you only get that one shot? | ||
| Aesquire |
Good point. | ||
| Bads1 |
Sorry but I'll stick with my dogs. I have guns but used for hunting. I feel sorry for the poor soul that comes into my house. | ||
| Aesquire |
Being armed is not for everyone. If you are not willing to put the time and expense to be proficient with your chosen weapon, you should keep it in a safe, & if your home is violated, call 911 and lock your family in the safest room. No body sane wants to have to defend against violence. ( as opposed to any martial arts where the idea is to learn how, & maybe compete with others in a controlled way ) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
To me another vote for buckshot. More of a chance of hitting the perp in an unprotected place. I bet a point blank shot with 00 buck even with Kevlar-protection would knock the dude down and possibly incapacitate. Broken ribs? | ||
| Aesquire |
Broken ribs, yes. Knockdown, no. If it can knock him down it will knock you down. Equal & Opposite, right? Oh, he might fall down. Nothing hand held except grenades actually knocks anyone down. I take that back. A mace will. So will a glaive, But you are braced when using one and there are joints involved so you don't get recoil the same. Yes. I have knocked someone off their feet with a pole axe. Rubber axe head. ( or they'd be dead ) with them in armor. ( or they'd be broken ) Hey, it was fair. He had one too. Got one in the living room. Not so great indoors with less room to swing. So I have a real one handed 11th century axe next to the sofa. By the lava lamp.  You really don't want to break into my house. | ||
| Airbozo |
It's funny that when we bought our house we never thought of home defense. Turns out our home was built unknowingly for just that. Direct line of sight across the creek to the only way in and out of our neighborhood in a vehicle. Trees close enough that you cannot see into our house from the other side of the creek, but we can see you. We also have a bridge that is easily block-able for the zombie hoarde. Clear lines of sight up and down our road. Fairly clear line of sight to the back entrance to our property. 8' privacy fence surrounding most of our yard, again with clear lines of sight. Lots of places to mount motion sensor lights that actually help at night. Plenty of places to hide cameras too and one clearly visible on each side of the house for prevention. Not even the police have been able to find my cameras. (they were surprised when I handed them stills of the guy that emptied a clip into my house many years ago. Including 2 of him coming and going on the entrance road. He will never hassle anyone again.) _IF_ you make it inside when the wife or I are home you are in big trouble and you will fall inside the house. If we are not home then the authorities will have all the information they need to catch you from offsite data storage. Not to mention that 90% of my neighbors have the means and desire to protect the entire neighborhood. That is my most valued personal protection. |
