| Author | Message | ||
     Henshao |
It can definitely go south that way. A lot boils down to whether the particular police in question believe you and like you. | ||
| Etennuly |
The problem now Etennuly, is you just posted that advice in a public forum. That could also be used against you. Yeah I kind of let the cat out of the bag. The 300 regular followers of BadWeB who read this stuff every week are likely already invited to my place. The thousands of infrequent followers who might read about it are not likely to travel this far to break into my place. And random readers skimming to see where they should go to steal stuff are such a small percentage to actually be in my area that any thing they would do would be trumped by the local meth heads who are afraid of the dark anyways. EVERY event will be different anyways. Regardless of plan, you can't know what you would do. You can only be as prepared as you can up to the point of letting your paranoid self out. The real problem with most plans are that everything happens so fast that there is no time to grab anything, or get anything, or unlock anything, or even call 911. The deputies told me that the home invasion shoot out takes about 8 seconds and the shooters are about 8 feet apart and both normally will miss 80% of their shots. The laser thing is cool and nice and all, but if you are being shot at you will not have time to steady aim like that and the light source will give you away in a dark room. That is why they say the best home defense is a shorter shot gun. You can shoot from the hip, from nearly any stance, even if you only get one hand on it and drop the gun from it's recoil, chances are that if you pointed it in the direction of the bad guy he felt something. If nothing else the fear of the other barrel. Most criminals do not want to face a shoot out. If they get hit they are caught, if they get away someone some where will have to patch them up. They want to flee if their plans go bad. What you are doing with a hand cannon is literally making sure he does not come back and you are cutting down on unnecessary prison population if you truly finish the intruder. There was a real problem with the revolving door prison population in Florida. They would break into a house, steal stuff, get caught a week later selling the stuff, and go to jail. Then they would be out in a week and then come back to the same neighborhoods when they knew the insurance had paid off on what he stole and then he would do it again. | ||
| Steveford |
Having to walk through an area with loose giant reptiles worked for me. My first wife and I used to laugh about burglars encountering Tiny (a very large, inquisitive Burmese python). | ||
| Ratbuell |
I've always been in a house with a .38 Colt police revolver, loaded with low-grain hollowpoints. Don't need distance once they're inside the house. And as someone above mentioned - never shoot to wound. I was taught to shoot as a pre-teen, and there are basic rules: NEVER show a weapon until it's time to use it. NEVER use a weapon unless you are prepared to take a life with it. They are not toys. Do not brandish, do not "show off", do not injure. If you don't want to kill...use a bat, and hope it stops the target in question before they use a gun on you. I also agree with the "have a plan" part. My house, not so crucial - me, three dogs. Homes with human families though...make sure all parties know "if this happens, the gun will come out and you need to make sure you DO NOT LEAVE THIS SPOT, because I will not use the weapon in that spot. If you're not where you belong...I'm avoiding the wrong spot, and you're in a spot that I'm NOT avoiding." | ||
| Fresnobuell |
exactly, hopefully this thread will get people thinking about it and we can learn some stuff at the same time. Our daily routine is so routine, it's easy not to think about such a subject at all.
Exactly, I envision it going down very fast. I would rather have a plan. I have even gone as far as practicing retrieving and deploying my bedside firearm(s) from a sleeping position. Every second will count and may be the difference of living or dying. I certainly don't want to be caught fumbling around the nightstand if it's really "go" time.
There is nothing like the sound of chambering a shell in a pump shotgun. Absolutely unmistakable and frightening as hell. Also there is the fact that the pellets will not likely penetrate let's say your neighbors bedroom wall either. My personal fear is my dogs may be in the "mix" if there is an intruder and I would have to be more careful with the shotgun. I do know the size of the 00 buckshot pattern from likely engagement distance and even with a short barrel it's about 2 to 2.5 feet so I would definitely be aiming for upper center mass should the dogs be leading the charge | ||
| Henshao |
Burmese Pythons? Bah! I keep Komodo Dragons in the foyer for those pesky burglars  If overpenetration and beyond-target-effects are a concern, I recommend aiming at the actual center of mass and down. A steep, downward angle of fire should limit the range of stray fire. | ||
| Sifo |
It's funny, my mom has a pair of rat dogs that bark at everything. She thinks it a good thing. I find it annoying. It's a real problem as they false alarm multiple times per hour. This summer we went to visit for a weekend, and got in kind of late. My mom was in her bedroom with the TV on. We pulled in, opened the garage door, pulled the car in, closed the garage door, got our bags out, walked into the house, and carried our bags from on end of the house all the way down the hallway to where the bedrooms are before the dogs alerted. It was really funny to have them come running into the hallway barking up a storm only to actually run up against someone in the house. The shut up, turned and hid under the bed. I about pissed my pants laughing. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
You don't want to shoot to wound, shoot to kill. That way they cant sue you. | ||
| Ourdee |
Henshao, You want to see a hollow point pistol round penetrate? first is solid hard cast. Second is 12 gauge. Then the hollow point at nearly identical results to the 12 gauge. 1500 foot pounds of energy from a handgun. Nice when you can choose the arena and the backstops are in place. Not an appropriate choice for every day carry unless you have a second weapon that won't over penetrate. If you do consider this route, indoor shooting will be painful. Lot of pressure for an enclosed space. | ||
| Sifo |
Never shoot to kill. "Shoot to ..." implies your motive. You shoot to stop a threat. If you go on the record that you shot to kill, that will almost certainly be used against you. If stopping the threat happens to kill, that is very unfortunate. You shot to stop the threat though. Wounding is a very unreliable way to stop a threat BTW. | ||
| Henshao |
Ourdee, it is a waste of your time trying to impress me with this stuff, good buddy. I assure you I am further down the rabbit hole than you are. Without getting too specific, let's just say .454 Casull and 12ga slugs are both pretty brutal. They both rival a center-fire rifle rounds for round, but 20 or 30 rounds of 308 still wins the debate for this gun nut. This is the cheap stuff! ...Doubletap offers 200gr 308 Accubonds... (Message edited by henshao on December 05, 2015) | ||
| Pwnzor |
If I can't get away from the scene without engaging with a firearm, I think Anonymous' plan is the way to go. My primary function is to protect my family, so if I can get them away from the danger, that's what I'm going to do. Getting the cops involved can only be bad for my future. | ||
| Aesquire |
Etennuly, You have some misconceptions on shotguns. Even with a short, cylinder bore, no choke, at "in the house" ranges the shot pattern is the size of your hand. Maybe just a fist, since many modern shotgun loads have plastic shot cups to reduce the spread. So, "shoot from the hip" means you probably blow a hole in the wall, and what's behind it. Not good. Short form, you have to aim a shotgun just like you do a rifle or a pistol. Any discharge of a fire arm that is not aimed is not responsible. Yes, in a wrestling match, you may not be able to use the sights. Sucks. Do your best. Now, if you practice point shooting, a Lot, and are good at it, that's fine. Heck, I'll grant you "Equilibrium" level skills, and still be happy to compete with you shooting from the hip, and me aiming, at pop cans. btw, I use a standard 12 oz. pop can as my standard of accuracy for hunting and defensive shooting. ( not varmint hunting, but Deer, Elk, Sheep ) Why? if you can consistently hit a pop can, you can consistently hit a heart sized target. ( pop cans are actually easier ) Also, they cost 5 cents, if after use the bar code is ruined. And I get to drink the coke first. IMHO, your range is the range you can hit a pop can. Target & varmint shooting is to tighter accuracy, and not relevant here. Pistols vs. Shotguns & Rifles. This video has the salient point with no ego or machismo. Pistols suck, performance wise, in every category but one. You are more likely to have one at hand. That is not an insignificant advantage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dA36NYLqns Also, I was wrong earlier, FBI specs are 12-18 inch penetration. Not 18. Personally, I don't "like" cruiser style pistol grip ( no stock ) shotguns. Mostly because it hurts to shoot.... ok, mostly because I'm not very good with them. I'll still compete on pop cans, aiming vs. hip shooting. And if you win, I'm impressed. | ||
| Ourdee |
Not trying to impress, just replying to the hollow point penetration comment. I was caught off guard by the 400 grain hard cast penetration in this guy's video. This is the cheap stuff:  | ||
| Aesquire |
Never shoot to kill. "Shoot to ..." implies your motive. You shoot to stop a threat. Truth. More internet pages have been wasted on the idea of Stopping Power than on Oil Preference. The video link above puts it scientifically. Central Nervous System, or blood pressure drop. Or as I put it, you shoot to let the Angry out. You fight to Stop the Fight. Humans are incredible creatures. We can take enormous damage and keep fighting. Or drop dead from a fly bite. The science of terminal ballistics, what happens when the projectile hits, can be upsetting to many people, since it involves trauma, blood, messy bits, and concentrated violence. I can't agree with any plan involving hiding bodies or evading responsibility. I must, to be a responsible adult ( Hah! ) urge us not to even consider such things. Besides, most people just don't have access to a handy Pig Farm or Rendering plant.  Seriously, Ever even seen CSI? Also, every police "desk" I've ever seen has the phone number of the cleaning service that has the right enzymes and cleaners to clean up the messy bits. If you are LUCKY, you will have to replace carpets, repair walls, and spend a lot of money on lawyers to recover your property. If not, you and/or a loved one is dead or in jail. | ||
| Ourdee |
I use a laser that fits in the barrel and snap caps loaded. The hammer dropping is enough to fire the laser. This lets me practice point and shoot in the room where I keep the pistol. Neat thing it has let me improve on is the presentation of the weapon. As soon as I grab the pistol I try to get it on target on the way to fully extending it. I can pull the trigger while getting into position and see if the weapon is on target while moving. It wasn't when I started doing this exercise. | ||
| Aesquire |
Hard to have a better training tool than a laser. Shows where the gun is pointed, and how you wobble. Visual feedback is excellent for learning. They make a new color changing target for the laser trainers. http://www.laserlyte.com/collections/lts | ||
| Henshao |
Heck, a 45acp will go 30+ inches deep, in an FMJ. That is what nonexpanding rounds do, bud. | ||
| Robertl |
A coworker told me a few months ago he heard something in the middle of the night and grabbed his pistol. It was his son sleep walking. Consider all possibilities when creating your plan which should focus on safety for you and/or your family first. | ||
| Torquehd |
Rapidly grab your gun and gain the "high ground" (point it at him; you can shoot him with no risk of shooting anyone else) and very forcibly tell him to vacate the premises. If he immediately vacates without threatening anyone, you let him go. If he so much as sneezes against you, drop him. Chest, head, lower abdomen, you decide. The defining circumstance (in a court of law) is the imminent threat to your (or anyone in your household's) safety or life. If the intruder has a weapon (could be any kind - a screwdriver can be a dangerous weapon), you could tell him to drop it and leave. If he drops it and leaves, no harm no foul (so the court will see it). If you shoot an unarmed robber in the back, how would the court see that? If he moves his hand toward his gun or raises the gun, he has displayed hostile intent. If he turns his back or obscures the weapon so that you can't see if he's raising it or pointing it at someone, then it becomes questionable but likely fatal. If you can defuse the situation, do it. If you can't, don't let him get the upper hand. Does he have a gun? Could he grab your son and use him as a body shield? You don't know these things. Gain the tactical advantage through superior firepower. Control the situation, not the other way around. Once your gun (round chambered) is pointing at him, you control the situation. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I believe one very important thing to keep in mind, after you've read Massad Ayoob's take on self defense is: not all jurisdictions are equal in the interpretation of self defense laws. What you could get away with in Texas or Utah might not fly in Illinois or California. "YOU MUST KNOW THE LOCAL LAW PRECISELY" to have any kind of good outcome and no matter where you are, call an attorney. If not you will be assigned a public defender who will usually cut a deal that's not always in your best interest. As Torquehd stated "control the situation", all of it even after the fact. Its your life. | ||
| Malott442 |
@Thumper74. I have several other deterrent methods. 1. When I'm asleep in bed, and hear rustling around outside, I open the upstairs window and begin screaming. I try to fool the would be perpetrator into thinking there is already a rape/murder in progress, and hope that they move on. I add to the effect by shooting 6 or 7 times into the air. 2. When I catch someone snooping around my house, like an unfamiliar postal worker, or a thief masquerading as a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon- I immediately start covering the front of my house, and all external door knobs with my feces. I don't prefer this method of deterrence, because it is quite a task to clean up afterwords.... but I prefer to play it safe. The more feces you leave, the more deterring the effect. | ||
| Malott442 |
In all seriousness: 12 Gauge, buckshot. The end. You don't need to even aim the gun. The muzzle flash will induce bowel movements, if not the racking of the round. My handgun is for outside of the house. My shotgun is for stopping intruders into my castle. FL law: 776.013 Home protection; use or threatened use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.— (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using or threatening to use defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if: (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and (b)The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred. Why a shotgun? Less aiming, and more WRONG HOUSE, MOTHER $*%$! | ||
| Malott442 |
SOURCE: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_ mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0 776.013.html | ||
| Aesquire |
Please don't do that to us Postal workers! You have to Aim a shotgun too. If there is one myth that really needs to be shot it's that shotguns spread to cover the whole room. | ||
| Ourdee |
Shotgun is like a short pool que. Easy to use, but you still have to point it at the right ball. | ||
| Bads1 |
Buy a dog of the working class group bred for protection or breed that is very family committed. 99% of intruders never bother a home with a dog or dogs. | ||
| Etennuly |
Like I stated earlier with a short shot gun with buck shot, the first round is fire for affect. You might just scare the intruder into running away and avoid all of the legal problems that you might have to face if you actually hit him. Second round..... Even if that first round misses by a 30 degree angle, at ten feet, the business end of a shot gun is no place a bad guy wants to be. For all of you don't want to chance missing at all why not build a powder fired cannon into the bedroom wall with a blunder buss type barrel full of random grape shot. have the end of the barrel hammered down to an oval shape to spread it even more to the sides.  If you can scare them away with a blast from a shot gun the odds of them returning to your address are slim to none, unless they case the place for when you leave so that they can steal the shot gun. I read a story years ago where that actually happened in Florida. If you place a sticker on your door stating that you are a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, does that mean no one will come to your door?  Lots of good ideas on this thread. I used to know that Florida Statute by heart. I don't mind not living in a high percentage theft/vandalism zone any longer. One night they tried to break into my new SUV, the car alarm went off, the neighbor's German Shepard went off, the neighbor's porch lights came on, the thieves became vandals. In their rush to leave they broke the door handle, bent the door and broke out a window for sport as they turned to run. Ran the damage cost right up to the amount of my deductible. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Get a rescue dog. Save a life. You will be glad you did. | ||
| Henshao |
If you can afford the upkeep, it's tough to beat a Rottweiler. They don't shed much, very large and very intelligent. And very protective. Sorry to hear about your experience, Court. Glad you're still around. Reminds me of an article I read, written by a veteran combat medic. Suffice to say, with rapid medical attention, most gunshot wounds are non-lethal. Except when it comes to shotguns and "real" rifles such as 308. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/daniel-zi mmerman/medics-advice-shoot-heaviest-rifle-round-s hoot-can-hit-shoot/ |
