| Author | Message | ||
     Buelltours |
Hi folks, I'm a little surprised that I didn't find a healthy discussion here on the quickboard about cheater devices. If I remember correctly, didn't Buell use a similar system on the 1125 back in the day which required the de-noid procedure? Anyways, looking forward to your comments :-) | ||
| Hughlysses |
The thought did occur to me, but perhaps the solenoid is legal. IIRC, it momentarily closes the throttle to prevent exceeding a noise limit at a specific vehicle speed. I also believe this feature was carried over to the EBR 1190RX and SX. | ||
| Aesquire |
That's not a cheat. That's building to code. | ||
| Buelltours |
ok, noise, not emissions. Now I remember it was discussed as a safety issue under hard acceleration, when passing i.e.) Thanks for clearing that up 😎 Can't believe VW thought they could get away with the emissions cheat though... | ||
| Pwnzor |
The real cheaters are the EPA, not VW. And WE, the holders of the purse strings, let them get away with it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That's kinda what I have lumped it into. Two sets of political bureaucratic cheaters cheating on each other. I'm just glad it's not my problem. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
The difference int the noid type of thing and this VW type of thing is the VW acts differently when it knows it's being watched. It's all BS anyways. The previous generation of TDI cars were awesome. The EPA messed up the recipe. You could be next to one of those TDI cars and not even know they were Diesel. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If anyone's interested, TDIclub.com (VW TDI forum) has an excellent thread with lots of links to relevant stories on "Dieselgate": http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336 | ||
| Aesquire |
Thanks. My 2009 doesn't smoke or stink. Cleanest exhaust ever. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Sounds just like a bunch of Apple fanboys. | ||
| Sifo |
So what's the advantage to VW for doing this? Better fuel mileage? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Tom- it looks like VW opted to go with less-sophisticated emissions controls than other "legal" diesel autos of the same time period. The main thing VW omitted was a urea injection system which is used to control nitrous oxides emissions. My guess is the engineers thought they could make this setup work and were too far down the path before they figured it wouldn't meet the EPA limits under real world conditions, so the "cheat" was devised as a work-around. VW may be able to make these cars meet the emissions limits with the existing emissions controls by reprogramming the ECMs, but the fuel mileage and/or performance will almost certainly suffer. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
"urea injection" Is that when you piss into the gas tank? | ||
| Sifo |
So I would guess that not running the urea system they were using a soot trap that just wasn't up to the task, so it gets turned off for much of the real world driving. Is that about right? I know our buses that run the soot trap systems can be a PITA when they start to malfunction. From what I heard, there will be no requirement for consumers to get their cars "fixed". I suppose VW may be forced to provide a fix for those who want it. Personally, I'm not sure I would risk a fix. | ||
| Aesquire |
In an emergency. Then you have to flush the system..  Apple fanboys? Not a bad analogy. Cult cars for sure. In the Golf series it's about a thousand bucks extra for the oil burner. The Suv is a ten thousand delta. In a Dodge pickup it's Fourteen thousand $$$$ A close bud who runs a school bus garage claims the fuel savings is far more than offset by higher maintenance cost. He may be right. I bought the TDI because I wanted the sporty handling And the best mileage. The Sportwagen has the GTI chassis & suspension so it's about as good as front wheel drive gets. Ditto mileage. There's rumors that VW may have to buy the cars back. I hope not. But if so I'll be looking at a Forrester. And asking advice. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I was waiting for some analysis. I'm wondering if this is a repeat of the whole EPA "oxygenated fuel" fiasco. Or the ethanol fairy tale. For the oxygenated fuel thing, we spent a lot of time and money for specially formulated (oxygenated) fuels to be used in the summer. They dropped emissions by about 3% to 5%. Err, except, they are less energy dense, so they get about 3% to 5% fewer miles per gallon. See the problem? And with Ethanol, there are credible analysis showing that at best, it burns roughly a gallon of diesel to make enough Ethanol to save... about a gallon of diesel. So you wonder, over the life of the vehicle, what the real environmental impact is of the simpler and more economical (but more polluting) version of the "cheater" emissions system. Especially if you do an apples to apples comparison to ensure the projections for the "clean" motor include enough of a displacement advantage to make the two engines make at least the same power under all circumstances, and you measure the pollution at the same power output levels. I have no answer what the analysis would show, all I know is that it won't be done by the EPA. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the EPA was actively threatening anyone who might *do* the analysis. Those of us that really do care about the planet should be deeply offended by the removal of science from environmentalism. I don't want my baby thrown out when the bathwater is inevitably pitched... | ||
| 86129squids |
I just wasted 2 hours for a $20 oil change at Sears, for my crappy little '92 Nissan hardbody. The "tech" had trouble getting the oil filter off. Don't they teach the old spike and hammer method in "tech" school anymore?!?!? GEEZ peeps are stoopid... For the rest of my life, I'll only look to own vehicles from the early '90's or older if at all possible. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I hope not. But if so I'll be looking at a Forrester. And asking advice. Coincidentally, a friend of mine and former Badwebber just traded his 2009 (?) TDI Sportwagen for a Forrester last week. He was planning to trade well before the current fiasco; he's had a lot of issues with his TDI. | ||
| Robertl |
From what I read, limited reading, it was about performance. On this side of the pond, we seem to only want fast and higher hp (general population)? I wanted a Jetta TDI in the early 2000s for the mileage but I could not find one in a reasonable distance that wasn't red and a manual (I drove in Dallas rush hour daily so no bashing). Coworker leased a new Jetta TDI a few years ago but eventually traded it in on something cheaper and seems to be happier. He was getting great mileage and it was increasing as the motor broke in but the higher diesel cost just didn't make sense. Believe I put it in a spreadsheet at the time to see and you'd have to drive a whole lot of miles to even break even. Maybe I could score a deal on a VW/Audi TDI suv now...lol. If Subaru could tow more, I would already have one. Not sure I've met anyone that didn't love theirs. | ||
| Greg_e |
As far as mileage goes, I did a quick comparison before buying my Fiesta... The 1.0 liter ecoboost at $1,000 extra would take a long time to recover, even considering 20,000 per year. Bought the normally aspirated 1.6L | ||
| Cycleaddict |
wifey bought the '14 Forrester , non turbo 175 hp with the CVT trans and its a really good handling car . 28- 30 mpg , kinda firm ride (not mushy),handles backroads much better than it should . the CVT takes a little getting used to ,it makes the car feel like its got more motor than it does. | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Hughlysses |
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| Aesquire |
Thanks for the links... A lot to get through. While I go through it all... (sigh) I was thinking, just a few weeks ago, about selling the Sportwagen back to the dealer network, ( they send me "we wanna buy your car" letters all the time. ) and getting the Touareg. ( that's why I know it's $10k for the TDI ) Guy I work with just got a gas version, and loves it. Has not taken it off road, or at least not bragged to me about it. One reason for this fantasy, is getting stuck in the driveway in winter. I run aggressive snows, studded. ( I lived in South Dakota ) The Sportwagen is pretty darn good in slush & ice, but too low for multi foot thick real snow. The Touareg can do Paris-Dakar. Thanks for the Subaru advice. Everyone who has one loves one. Turbo or not? | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Aesquire |
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| 46champ |
So Pat you think you need a Lesbaru. | ||
| Aesquire |
I don't care who owned it before me as long as they did the maintenance. | ||
| Sifo |
My mom has a Forrester. It's actually her second one. The first one has been handed down to her granddaughter. They seem to be solid cars. I find them to be uninspiring, but that's just my opinion. I like the CVT in concept. It drives well enough, and does what I would expect a CVT to do. I do wonder what makes people think these will be less problematic than CVTs done in the past. | ||
| Robertl |
CVTs provide an almost infinite set of gear ratios. Automatics have come a long way with now up to 9 or more gears now but I've seen a lot of issues, usually electronics/software, with some of the newer models (Jeep Cherokee for example). We have a CVT in our Honda CRZ and although it takes some getting used to, especially with the engine start/stop, it has served its purpose. If you like to shift or feel the auto shift, then look away, but if you only care about the car moving down the road, then you probably won't notice a whole lot after the initial adjustments. If passing, engine will rev high but that is expected as the CVT adjusts. My first CVT experience was a 60/70s Toro golf cart. I still remember what the belt drive looked like. I'd say they have improved quite a bit. |
