| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
The author admits this is pure speculation. It's an interesting read nonetheless: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/polaris-might-ve ry-well-buy-erik-buell-racing-95718.html | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I hope he is right! I am still very hopeful that the 200 year plan has just hit a couple bumps and not drove off a cliff. | ||
| Jaimec |
Will they rename the new company "Bomber Motorcycles?" Oh wait... that was BRP, not Polaris...  | ||
| Buelliedan |
It would be nice to see it happen. | ||
| Zane |
I for one don't think it will happen. Polaris already has a lot of excellent in-house engineering talent and really doesn't need EBR. Still it would be nice to see a situation where Erik could be a pure engineer again and not have to worry about the business side of the house. In a world where he had adequate financial recourses and freed from bean counting, I'd bet we'd see some amazing machines take to the road. | ||
| Mackja |
To me it does make sense, EBR has an awesome products in the rx/sx motorcycles, no development time required, open up and start production back up. Would be nice, I have been thinking this would be the best situation going. | ||
| Glitch |
Where could you get tooling for three bikes engine included for less than 20million? | ||
| Strokizator |
In a world where he had adequate financial recourses and freed from bean counting, I'd bet we'd see some amazing machines take to the road Been there, done that - you/I didn't buy one. Of course I'm not privy to what was "in the works" so maybe that would be worth it to a prospective buyer. Still it'd be nice to see what Polaris could cook up with the ingredients from EBR. | ||
| Pwnzor |
If they can't make the bikes for less than $14k then the results will be the same. | ||
| Tootal |
Why build a project engine that will do what EBR already has. 180 horse V-twin that's light weight? I think Polaris would be way ahead to swap up EBR. The EBR engine platform could be retuned for different styles of bikes but the platform is rock solid and IMHO hard to beat. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If they can't make the bikes for less than $14k then the results will be the same. Somehow I don't think their plan was to continue to build nothing but top-end bikes. Their bike range went from $40k to ~$14k in 2 years. I'm guessing the next model iteration would have been (will be?) in the sub-$10k range. | ||
| Zane |
Strokizator, You're right, neither you nor I bought an EBR. I'm 60 years old, don't lean as much as I used to and don't heal as fast either. Just because the bikes Erik was building isn't for me any more, doesn't mean I can't appreciate the engineering that goes into them. | ||
| Strokizator |
I hear you, Zane. I'll be 63 in about 3 weeks and the ergos of the EBR just wouldn't work for me and that's why I was holding out hope for the AX. Engineering, aesthetics, construction quality, etc. are only worthwhile if, at the end of the day, you generate demand and sell those motorcycles. The market seems to have shifted to "bang for the buck" with the FZ-09 being a huge seller for Yamaha. A few guys here have the R3. If Yamaha made an adventure version of the FZ-07 I'd be on it like a duck on a june bug. Everybody now offers good performance for less than $10K. If you are asking more, then you better have a full electronics package included. | ||
| Zane |
Strokizator, Exactly! The ergonomics of the RX would kill me off in a couple of hours and to be truthful, I don't have the skill set to ride a bike like that they way it should be ridden. On any 1190 my life span would be measured in minutes. While I can admire and appreciate the 1190 series bikes (and I really do) that doesn't mean I could ride them worth a darn. I've even considered selling my 09 XT to get a Victory Cross Country. I love my XT but my riding style is becoming more and more sedate. I'm thinking I should get a bike that is more suited to my riding style and needs. Young kid here at the office came to work yesterday on a brand new KLR 650. Traded in an old Honda CB something or other and some cash for it. I told the kid he has good taste in motorcycles. | ||
| Reindog |
Sad that AX got the ax. I, too, was holding out waiting to see it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
On any 1190 my life span would be measured in minutes. I've been thinking about that. That power-limiting of that 22 setting traction control on the 1190's could actually be very useful. Step 22 = Blast, Step 18= XB9, Step 15 = XB12, Step 10 = 1125, etc. It might be a pretty handy way to keep yourself out of trouble. | ||
| Zane |
Only if you have the discipline to use it. I might start out at Step 15/XB12 but I know myself. I'd just have to see what Step 10 and Step 22 was all about. Just because I'm growing old, doesn't mean I've grown up. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Hmmm isnt the FJ09 the adventure version of the FZ? | ||
| Strokizator |
The FJ09 is a "sports-tourer" along the lines of the FJR, Kawi Concours, Triumph Sprint and others. I wouldn't take one too far of road. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Just because I'm growing old, doesn't mean I've grown up. I'm with you on that one brother. Growing older just means you end up saying things like, "Shutup & hold his beer, this should be funny." | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
I think you might want to take another look at that FJ09. That aint no concourse...lol. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
As far as speculation goes, I would want to speculate; that 1. would Polaris want to just sell great street super bikes as in EBR 1190's or 2. try and win some very competitive races with their bikes? If the first item then acquiring EBR would be a great move. If the latter they just might, sorry, want to still acquire Erik's expertise but only to use his engineering, to build a whole new bike be it an inline or V-4 as they seem to be the way to go for now and the future.......unless Erik can build a modern two stroke, as he has done before but one. like Evinrude outboards, to meet all EPA standards and be highly competitive. And I truly hope he once again rises out of this current dilemma to go forward with what has been one of the greatest David and Goliath stories ever. My 1125R is the absolute best bike I have ever owned. Period. | ||
| Elvis |
In this week's superbike qualifying there are three V-Twins in the top 10 and one in the top 3. Meanwhile, Niccolo Canepa is at 19th on an inline 4. The current EBR engine could clearly use some more power, but right out of the box, it was running with the best, most refined and exotic (and highly modified) engines in the world. What could the EBR engine do with a bit more refinement? If Polaris bought a top-end inline 4, they're only 1/10th of the way there. They'd still need to create a competitive chasis AND refine and develop that inline 4 so it's competitive with the refined and developed inline 4's that are actually competing. And that's assuming they'd buy an existing engine design. If they develop their own engine, that makes the climb even steeper. That's a HUGE amount of work and you can bet that after several years of research and development on such a bike they'd be struggling for top 20 finishes in WSBK on that bike . . . if they're lucky. EBR may not have been on any podiums, but it's disrespectful to the level of competition at the WSBK level to think that even very smart people with a lot of money and resources could get to that point any time soon if they started with a clean sheet of paper. It's a MUCH easier task to refine the EBR and get that last little bit out of it than it would be to get to that level and beyond starting just with brains and no hard parts. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It is interesting to see how Canepa's been doing since moving to the Kawasaki. Apparently the EBR wasn't nearly as bad as some people would have us believe. | ||
| Strokizator |
I think you might want to take another look at that FJ09. That aint no concourse...lol. I will be taking another look at it. According to Yamaha's own web site, the FJ-09 is "Most Versatile Sport Tourer". At 160 lbs. lighter than the FJR it's an enticing prospect. Then on the other hand, the new Motus is calling me with her siren song. Price be damned, I've only got one more bike in my future and I might as well make it a doozy. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Elvis: "It's a MUCH easier task to refine the EBR and get that last little bit out of it than it would be to get to that level and beyond starting just with brains and no hard parts" Agreed Elvis, much of what you said is very true. What I was thinking about was; if Polaris was to acquire EBR would be for Erik to engineer a nice V-4 with 200+ H.P. and adapt it to his already great chassis and almost, from the git go start winning in ANY venue. Would that maybe work for ya? Or better yet resurrect EBR once again and do it the same way himself. YA! He does have a great chassis and platform but needs a better engine and not taking away from that great V-twin. Even Ducati has been working on a V-4 to stay competitive. If Hero was smart they would have done just that with Eriks help but they got arrogant to have control over him. A smart company with deep pockets could do well buying him out in the restructuring. Just my take. Bob | ||
| Elvis |
A V4 would be very cool and I would never argue against it. But if I were Polaris, I'd be buying EBR for what they have right now - not what they might have 5 years from now (and unless EBR already has a V4 in process, I think it would be at least 5 years away). A V4 as a future engine would definitely be something to consider, but (again if I were Polaris) that would be a long-term project and I'd wait until I had seen some prototypes and compared size weight and power output with the V-Twin before going that way. And while that was happening, I would be fine-tuning the 1190 to see what it can really do. Aprilia has done well with their V4 and KTM is working on one as well, but the inline 4's and V-Twins are getting it done in WSBK, so while a V4 would be cool, I don't know that it is a necessity . . . or even necessarily the best option. | ||
| Moshaholic2 |
The 1190 is maxed out. That engine has been run for many many years now (starting in europe) even with a full CNC head it didnt make more power. The valve train just cant handle the extra 1000rpms they need. Only way to get more power out of it at this point is to squeeze an extra 9cc out of it or a comptely new head design. Whats becoming clear is how good the 1190rx really was w/ Nico's showings on the "faster" kawasaki (Message edited by Moshaholic2 on May 24, 2015) | ||
| Elvis |
Consider for a moment the history of this engine: Generation 1: 1125 cc, 146 crank HP Generation 2: 1190 cc, 185 crank HP Generation 3: ???? Going from Gen 1 to Gen 2, they increased horsepower 26.7% while only increasing displacement 5.8% How is that possible? Good old fashioned engineering. They modified key components to allow the engine to pump fuel and air more efficiently and faster. They didn't have to add any cylinders or make any drastic changes to the design. And now they have what they need to go to Gen 3. They've seen many, many engine failures and each failure tells a story. What broke? Under what conditions did it break? Is the same part breaking every time? Once components fail, the weaknesses of those components can be identified and a new component can be designed with a different size and shape - possibly made from a different material. If done right, the weak area of that part can be strengthened while material can be shaved off of other areas so the replacement part is, ideally, stronger where it needs to be stronger while also lighter and maybe even less expensive. But those improvements can't be made within the strict limitations of WSBK. They can make some improvements and create "race kits" and they can probably improve competitiveness with those kind of changes, but to get where we all want to see them, they probably need to go to Gen 3. And it may be a matter of semantics at this point because Gen 3 will be a 'new' engine, but I'm not convinced they need to add cylinders or do other drastic modifications. As engines develop, it becomes more and more difficult to squeeze more performance out of them, but with just two iterations, I don't believe this engine has been squeezed in any serious way. It's unlikely we'll see a 27% improvement again, but I'd be willing to bet there's a prototype Gen 3 engine collecting dust in the empty factory somewhere. That Gen 3 almost certainly has improved components. It may also have a shorter stroke with larger bore and maybe even has a fairly drastically altered valve actuation system. But all those changes can be made with a 1200 cc engine that is packaged very similarly to the current engine and can be bolted right into the current frame. Based on how little development this engine has seen, I'm going to speculate that 15% improvement in power for Gen 3 over Gen 2 is reasonable. Where would 15% put us? 213 crank HP. Is that enough to get people's attention and make them think: "Maybe we don't need to jump to a 4 cylinder."? | ||
| Two_seasons |
Elvis said..."If done right, the weak area of that part can be strengthened while material can be shaved off of other areas so the replacement part is, ideally, stronger where it needs to be stronger while also lighter and maybe even less expensive." Where Erik and the Elves were at last year with the Gen 2 engine, you're premise is older than you realize. Your last two words above are not correct. They were there, but the money had not met the need when the business closed. |
