| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
A while back I finally cracked and picked up a Nikon D70 with a decent 55-200mm AFS/DX/VR lens for $150 from craigslist. I've been loving it ever since, and really regret that I waited this long. I still like my Lumix LX-3 for a pocket wide angle quiet low light discreet point and shoot, especially for the price. But when my main activity at a thing is photographing that thing, I won't go without a "real" camera again. So loving the D70, some friends on facebook were seeing all the pictures I was getting, and they were asking me for advice on what they should get. This was all their fault. Looking around, the Nikon D3300, which is a new "consumer / low end" camera had my jaw dropping. Basically, because the image sensor is so good, I can basically gain 2 to 4 F-Stops on all the Nikon glass I already own (3 now) by upgrading the camera body. If you do the math, that's pretty remarkable. My zoom is effectively an F5.6 200mm lens (which in the DX format is really something like a 260mm lens, but that's another topic for another day). Anyway, this lens is worth about $100 used on ebay. So what if I want to be able to shoot with it indoors, or in lower light? No problem, buy the Nikon 200mm F2.8 lens. That's only, lets see, oh about $1500. Wait. What? $1500? So 15x more expensive? Oh. But with the D3300 shooting decent pictures all the way past 6400 and even 12800 ASA (compared to the effective 800 to 1600 limit of the D70), that same F5.6 lens now works for me like an F2.8, or even an F2 200mm lens. I realize I loose quality as I crank up ASA, but remember, I am not comparing 3200 ASA 24 megapixel shots to 1600 ASA 24 megapixel shots... I am comparing a 6 megapixel D70 at 1600 ASA to a 6 megapixel shot at 3200 ASA or even 12800 ASA on the Nikon D3300. I realize this is getting pretty complicated, but basically I can use a higher size sensor that is much more light sensitive. But then downsample it to go from 24 megapixels to 6 megapixels (great 8x10 quality, all I ever need). That downsampling improves quality and reduces noise (it is one of the tricks the Panasonic Lumix cameras use to get such great low light performance). When I have a ton of light, I can leave it at low ASA and high pixelcount (free bonus). Though truth be told, I doubt even this good Nikon glass can truly hold much more than 6 megapixels in terms of quality in non studio conditions anyway. The D3300 is a "consumer" camera, but that is less about the capabilities of the camera, and more about it's user interface. So it has the same sensor as the $5000 high end camera, but the LCD doesn't articulate and you have to change things through menus instead of through nice knobs. So logic wise... so far so good (I think, but I haven't seen the actual results of what I am trying, and that D70 is like magic in terms of picture quality). Here is where things get a little more sketchy... I can buy that D3300 body from Tri-State Camera on Ebay for $319. Tri-State is being up front about the fact that they are selling me a new but grey market camera. And I know that beyond the "was it accurately described and did it work when you got it" eBay and PayPal protections, any other warranty is mostly hope and fairy dust. Tri-State claims they will warranty it for the same duration Nikon would, but that's just a promise from a company that has a sketchy reputation for service, so I value it at about $0. Why buy the camera without a warranty? Here is my math... This D3300 is $319 to my door grey market. For comparison, a "Nikon Refurbished" D3300 is $180 ***more***. And it only has a 90 day warranty anyway. And a brand new body with Nikon USA Warranty is even more than that. So, by buying the Nikon USA version, I am basically pre-paying at least $200 to repair a $319 camera, regardless of if the camera ever breaks or not. And regardless of if the camera is one which I deem worth repairing when it does break (compared to another new and even more modern camera). Am I crazy? Emotionally, I understand the kind of gamble I am taking. And if 8 months from now, I have to sell the broken body on Ebay for $75, my thought will be "That sucks. It was still a good bet, but I lost this time". And I'm out $250 or so. I'll also be keeping my D70 as a second / backup body, so I will have a spare. They are selling for $100 or so on Ebay, and for that money, I want mine. It also looks like that while Nikon USA will not touch the thing for repairs, there are a lot of US shops that will repair it in many (but not all) cases. Given this is a Nikon "sell a billion of 'em" model, I have to guess most parts will be available one way or another and if a repair is affordable, it will be available. If I was a professional photographer working in NY, I would march up to the best camera shop with the best reputation and hand them my credit card and pay $3000 for the best and most warrantied body Nikon sells. Actually I'd buy two. But I'm not. I'm just a guy with a hobby who is already tickled pink with a 6MP 10 year old D70 that is also completely out of warranty and not worth repairing. So at the end of the day, I am (logically, not physically) paying $319 to upgrade three of my nikon lenses by at least two f-stops. Still no warranty, but I have a spare body. So am I crazy from buying from Tri-State camera (which I would only do with Ebay and Paypal protections around initial purchase)? And am I crazy buying grey market if I'm willing to roll the dice and bet on Nikon quality, and live with the loss if I loose? You are all friends, so I give you permission to call me an idiot.  (Token pictures I took with the D-70) number 23 number 23 number 59 (Message edited by reepicheep on May 04, 2015) (Message edited by reepicheep on May 04, 2015) | ||
| Reepicheep |
#59 is Court's electronics and caliper repair tech. #23 was supposed to do it, but he was off doing teenager things at the time, and #59 has better attention to detail anyway... I found a picture at ASA 12800, and downsampled it (via the Gimp with nothing clever, just scaled) to the same 6MP format the D70 would use. The D3300 at 6MP looks better than the D70 at 1600ASA. D70 sample images here: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond70/15 D3300 sample images here: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d3300/11 You can see the sample image shot at 12800 ASA on that second page. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and one more thought... I also know that I risk not being able to upgrade the firmware of the D3300 if it is grey market... I'm not worried about this either (though I know it could bite me). For durable appliance items like a camera from a quality manufacturer, I am really hesitant to do firmware upgrades anyway. I like using the devices as they were originally shipped unless something dramatic is wrong with them (which is usually never the case for something like this). Patches for appliances generally seem to screw up as much stuff as they fix, for example the Panasonic patch that fixed, well, nothing, but removed the ability to use non Panasonic chipped batteries). Probably a moot point anyway, as it won't be difficult to scare up the firmware for whatever market the grey market camera was originally made for anyway (Singapore?). (Message edited by reepicheep on May 04, 2015) | ||
| Prior |
I upgraded to a D7100 after having my dinosaur D2X to learn on (still have that and won't ever depart with it). Both are great cameras, but the low light capabilities of the new cams are amazing. There's not many you can go wrong with at this point. thanks for the commentary! I need to get a few pics of Weston out to share. Prior | ||
| Reepicheep |
Did a little more research over lunch. This is still not a terrible idea, it's a risk reward deal. But I did find what is possibly a better option... An Amazon seller has refurb'd D3300 bodies for $289 with free shipping and they are (claimed to be) in stock. So that compares to the $315 I paid for new grey market. So with the Amazon refurb, it is refurbished, and it appears I would get a 90 day warranty, and it could later be serviced by Nikon USA. With my Tri-State grey market, I get a 1 year warranty (same length as new non refurbished). But it comes from Tri-State, not from Nikon, so I don't know if it is worth anything. And while I assumed Tri-State was a little sketchy, their Ebay ratings are actually *VERY* high. So at least in terms of honoring what they claimed in the auction, they must be doing very well. a 99.5% ebay rating doesn't pop up unless you are doing things well as a seller. But I will also say that a few years back, my parents bought a refurb Coolpix 990 or something (nice consumer camera in the day) direct from Nikon, and it had issues where it would periodically lock up or drain batteries. Kind of one of those worst case scenarios, not broken enough that you can demand it be re-fixed, but broken enough that you never really trusted it either. We probably could have gone to war with Nikon for satisfaction, but who knows how much time and money it would have taken. So that leaves me a *little* squeamish about buying something that complicated as a refurb, unless I knew the full history of the item (which I wouldn't). But gamble vs. price it is probably close, just because the refurb is cheaper and ships faster. And because I can get the refurb serviced (if I pay) at Nikon USA. (If it really did ship fast, and if it itself wasn't a used grey market item already). Now I just have to wait the two weeks for the thing to get here... | ||
| Reepicheep |
You are definitely slaking in the kid picture department Alex! Get to work! | ||
| Froggy |
If this is the same company, they got a good rating on Reseller Ratings http://www.resellerratings.com/store/TriState_Came ra_Video_and_Computers I'm always a bit hesitant about buying camera stuff online from sources I never heard of, I've seen too many horror stories of people buying something at a price that is too good to be true, and then the shop ends up calling you to sell you things like the battery and battery cover at an exorbitant price as it is "not included" | ||
| Reepicheep |
I agree Froggy, and that's why I paid extra to make sure the transaction was through EBay and PayPal. Not a guarantee that nothing will go wrong, but that gives a lot of extra protections for the buyer (probably almost to a fault, they make it pretty easy for a buyer to abuse a seller). And to that point, when I go to the eBay auction, they make it pretty clear that this is a grey market camera ("grey" in the camera descrption, and "Imported Model: Manufacturer warranty not applicable" note right there in the top line description. But when I go to their website, and see the same body for $10 cheaper, they don't make it at all clear that it is a greymarket import. I checked the "parts" included too, and they have everything I need (so if they are plucking parts, they aren't parts I need or want). Huh. Just got an email that it shipped UPS. That was quick... so I should have more information (and the camera in hand) in a few days. (Message edited by reepicheep on May 04, 2015) | ||
| Court |
Nikon Refurbished would be the way to go. I have a couple Nikon bodies and what they can do is nothing short of amazing. I shoot photos, daily, and put together little visual diddies for my 84 year old Mother in Kansas . . . https://www.dropbox.com/s/bk0ugfav705yk4k/04202015 %20-%20From%20a%20Moving%20Car.mov?dl=0 The Nikon Refurbished units are thought, by many, to be better than the new cameras in that each and every one is essentially hand built. Mike R and I both jumped on the 810 the moment it came out and it's nothing short of spectacular if you are willing to handle files the size of small cities. The consumer series Nikons also offer capabilities beyond the wildest imagination. One of the reasons I buy the Pro stuff is: 1) My kids are grown and gone and I sub-contract all my difficult work that requires elevated levels of skill and intellect to children in Ohio. . . . Outsourcing has saved me and provided amazing results. 2) I take cameras places you wouldn't walk and (like the other day) I have a habit of rolling done hills while hiking and bouncing them onto the floor of pickup trucks. The Nikons can nearly be beat with a hammer and laugh it off. Mike and I also have the good fortune to live near Nikon and regularly get stuff rebuilt. That $1,500 lens you refer to gets a $477 "physical" annually. Go refurb . . . you'll be thrilled. If you need that lens for some upcoming games shoot me a note and I'll zap it your way for a while . . . I tried the $139 200mm . . . . the $469 200mm and the $1,500 200mm . . . . Glass . . .is where it's at. Save on the camera . . .splurge on the glass. | ||
| Prior |
I ended up with a refurb D7100 for $699 shipped to my door. It had about 1k shots on it, perhaps a little higher than I wanted, but so far it's great. I couple that with a Nikkor $159 35mm f1.8 for indoor natural light stuff, the Nikkor 18-200 f3.5 that came with the D2X as an overall good walking around lens and a Sigma 50-150 f2.8 I picked up for $300 for some of the lower light or longer focal length higher bokeh stuff. It's a great lens. Overall, not a crazy price of entry and this setup does pretty well. I just need to get out and shoot more. and get Ferris or Court's eye for captures.    (Message edited by awprior on May 04, 2015) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good info. The refurb sounds like the better path, particularly as you move to the higher end cameras. The D3300 at the lowest end of the DSLR spectrum ($300 for a body), probably doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I just got a 35mm F1.8 prime lens for $159. My "least functional"... but most expensive and most awesome lens. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well hell, it was worth the $300 I spent just to get Alex to finally share some updated pictures of his family! | ||
| Court |
Hahaha..... That's what I was thinking! Those are AWESOME pics!! | ||
| Fb1 |
I just need to get out and shoot more. and get Ferris or Court's eye for captures. My "secret"? It's digital; unlike film, it doesn't cost any extra to keep pushing the button - launch enough rounds and you're bound to eventually hit something. Don't post-up (or even mention) the misses, only the occasional hit, and suddenly everyone thinks you actually know what you're doing.  Sunrise on the Parkway a couple of weekends ago, with my Panny Lumix FZ150, a camera I bought in large part because Reep loves his Lumix so much.  Ferris | ||
| Prior |
That one's a great shot. It's been on my desktop at work for the past week or so. I too have a Lumix due to Reep, the LX5, and that one's my go to work camera. I haven't the stomach for dragging the DSLRs around the tractor factory and those draw quite a bit of attention sometimes. Summer frees up my schedule quite a bit with Heather being home, hope to get up one of these mornings and chase some pixels! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Awesome pic! Back in the day, pro's had big SLR's, but they *always* kept a Leica in their pocket. | ||
| Court |
From the G12 . . .  From the S100  | ||
| Reindog |
Great to see Ferris crawling out from his bunker. Welcome back! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ferris and Alex! Double bonus. What do I have to buy to get JB2 to drop in and post a picture? | ||
| Fb1 |
What do I have to buy to get JB2 to drop in and post a picture? A KLR650. | ||
| Jb2 |
 Sony A5000. Post edit. New camera but haven't slowed down enough to shoot anything outdoors and I don't have many RAW images here at work. Maybe in after June? This shot was taken at a new friend's personal collection. Danny Beher is 66 and races moto-cross and flat track every weekend on bevel-drive Ducatis. He also owns many very nice British and European bikes. This is just one row. So who's buying another KLR for my collection?  | ||
| Fb1 |
That one's a great shot. It's been on my desktop at work for the past week or so. Thanks, Alex. It wasn't taken with a Nikon, but I've always wanted a Nikon, so I thought maybe I could get away with posting it here. Back when I was a pup like you I had a couple of black-body Nikkormats, baby Nikons they were called, one with a factory up close and personal zoom (28-70, maybe?), the other with a factory zoom that was a little longer (70-210, as I recall). Nikons were the Holy Grail back then, but I never had the scratch to own one and the accompanying glass. The Nikkormats served me well. Still lust for a "real" Nikon. One of these days... Awesome pic! Thanks, Reep; was hoping you wouldn't mind if I jacked your thread for a moment. That pic just got selected for Front Page rotation on ADVrider, my second photo to earn that honor, and I'm pretty stoked about it. Back in the day, pro's had big SLR's, but they *always* kept a Leica in their pocket. Several years ago I bought Denise an LX5, based solely on your love affair with your Lumix. Dang, it's amazing the technology they can stuff into a little camera these days, and a zoom that opens up to 2.0? Slick. There's NOTHING you can't do with this little gem. Great to see Ferris crawling out from his bunker. Welcome back! Thanks, Reindog. Haven't been gone, just hunkered down. Thanks for the shout-out, hi to your Missus and the Lightons from me 'n D. | ||
| Prior |
I think we've highjacked the thread... We're all friends through. JB2, Love the antique bike pic! That looks like a cool place. I had a blast that day we met up with Dick Winger and saw his collection. Cool to know guys with those collections. Ferris, I'll hand over the Nikon anytime you want to use it. The D2X from Uncle Roger was still one of the coolest gifts I've gotten. I'm a lucky guy to have that for an 'entry level' DSLR to learn on. I try not to put focus on 'things' but that camera has helped capture so many memories and adventures and started my camera habit. Two more: Weston and his ride, a hand-me-down 6 volt hot rod Lighting McQueen 4 wheeler. I got the focus wrong, but thought it was a cool pic anyway. Color was tweaked with a Lightroom preset.  Weston's favorite place to hang is either the yard or the driveway/garage. I hadn't anticipated the need to lock the toolbox up this soon...  | ||
| Jb2 |
Prior, Sadly Dick Winger passed away just after we finished his 1902 Orient in 2010. You'd like Danny. Shorter than me(HA!), laid back, very passionate about anything two-wheeled and an absolute terror on a bike. He doesn't talk the talk, he just walks the walk. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The hijacks are always a much better ride than the thread. I love all the pictures....  | ||
| Reepicheep |
And one from the Lumix so it still feels loved. (I only have the LX3, not the LX5, which is now going for like $100 on ebay and yet is still one hell of a camera).  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and someday a KLR-650 *will* follow me home... | ||
| Jb2 |
 I followed Bhuff and Val to Middletown, OH 3 weeks ago and this very nicely equipped KLR carried Brian back home to Greensfork, IN. It's an '09 w/2K miles and outfitted for a trip to Alaska. The former owner suffered an industrial accident and subsequent vertebra problems and was forced to sell. Bhuff got one whale of a deal. Brubaker Bridge is a haunted covered bridge just outside of Gratis, OH. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That is a seriously nice bit of kit! And a good picture. | ||
| Fb1 |
Ferris, I'll hand over the Nikon anytime you want to use it. Careful what you wish for...you may not get it back... The hijacks are always a much better ride than the thread. I love all the pictures.... Beautiful photo, beautiful girl. Oh, and someday a KLR-650 *will* follow me home... I could do a KLR. Maybe not as my *only* bike...maybe... JB2: That's only the second photo I've seen of Bhuff's new-to-him KLR - dang, it looks brand-frikkin'-new!! (Message edited by jerry_haughton on May 06, 2015) |
