| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Tom, it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I went to school in the North Country of NY State, and every car and truck has a plug hanging out of the grill. Sure, but they plug in over night at home, not at work in a parking lot. | ||
| Chauly |
Sorry, I was using a cordless impact driver this weekend, and swapping batteries instead of waiting for the charge. Maybe the trick is to drive from dealer to dealer; they would have the packs that fit your car? | ||
| S2t_bama |
I had thought some time ago that (for electric cars) you could have stations which have batteries mounted in small utility trailers. You could plug that into some port on the car and drive to the next station for cross-country trips. That takes several of the problems out of the equation, such as carrying unnecessarily heavy batteries for in-town use, incompatible form factors among different manufacturers, doing an invasive and difficult battery swap at a "gas station." | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Renault & Nissan developed a battery swap technology called "Quick Drop" for a company called Better Place & was introduced in Israel & Denmark using a robot to swap the batteries from under the car. Better Place declared insolvency in 2013. That doesn't mean the idea was bad, just that nobody else came on board to standardise the installation. The other question that arises from e-vehicles becoming more common is the increased need for power generation & distribution. I imagine Court has a better handle on those ramifications than most of us. | ||
| 46champ |
There is a lot of potential power generation out there as long as we want to burn COAL! | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I'm sorry, still not practical enough for me. Just not enough convenience for my every day usage and I surely would not want one for my sport riding, all things considered. Now when enough filling stations for CNG come about I just might jump on that bandwagon for my cages but still not for my fun. Bob | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
When I had a 100 mile round trip daily commute, going out of my way and stopping for gas every day was not convenient You must get crappy mileage if you have to fill up only after a hundred miles. | ||
| Aesquire |
Arguing electric vehicles is a timeless occupation. batteries simply do not have the power density of booze or CNG or gasoline. Watts per pound. It's just plain going to take longer to charge a battery than fill a 5 gallon tank. ( the capacity of MY Buell, so that's my standard ) Batteries have, at current tech, life cycle issues, depending on chemistry, and all of the issues probably will get solved, but not soon. IC engines on gasoline are doing chemistry far more energetically and faster than batteries. I'm betting on super-capacitors. When you can store as much power per pound is not yet knowable, since past development is not linear in nature and future may have snags in scaling up to usable levels... What you can do in a lab today may take years to hit the consumer. ( WILL take years ) But! The actual amount of power you can store is enough to run down the road in a fairly satisfactory way. There is enough torque to accelerate enough to please some ( not all, of course ) and top speeds are "enough" for recreational and commuter use, so that's a win. so the 2 human interface issues I'm hearing from you guys are: 1. Range 2. Recharge time. Solving both is up to the battery inventors and recharge time is also limited by existing house wiring. Even if/when you can get that "5 minute" charge you are going to use a lot of juice in a short time and will have to deal with heat, fire, and... well.... Heat.... A super short time may just melt your house wires. 100 amp service? Ha! A commute's worth of raw power has to be fed in. You are going to take it out over tens of minutes. How fast you can stuff it in? How much heat will that produce? We can't hit it with lightning in a second and ride all day. Yet. And you are going to need new electric service for that. And of course, more electric power generation, far more than the power equivalent in gasoline use displaced. Early adopters of electric vehicles are paying bleeding edge prices, that's to be expected. They also are having to be careful not to set the house on fire. You want to control the feed to each individual cell, with a smart charger AND control system that monitors each cell and keeps it alive. Keeping the battery alive is why the Prius is programmed as it is, to only discharge so far, so fast, and recharge at a limited speed. Electric motorcycles are here for some, tomorrow for others, and never for some. Depending on perceived need. How long are you willing to stand around while your car or bike charges? | ||
| Midknyte |
>They will have no competition beating the underpowered, under-ranged, not-in-production livewire. It's still just a design excersize to get their foot in the door with Samsung for next gen battery tech http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/753713.html | ||
| Strokizator |
How long are you willing to stand around while your car or bike charges? So where's your vehicle right now? All mine are in the garage for the night. The 500e is plugged into the wall and the rest are just waiting around. There is no one perfect vehicle. I've got a street bike that is useless off road and a dirt bike that isn't street legal. One that is my go-to bike for chores to town and one that took me on a 9000 mile trip last summer. When my wife questions my need for more than one motorcycle, I tell her that there's a reason that the PGA allows 14 clubs in a golf bag and I may need yet another bike. My ideal e-motorcycle would be a dirt bike with a spare battery. Being able to pick your way through the gnarliest trail and have instant torque available would like be a hoot. A 45-minute run time would be sufficient. | ||
| Pwnzor |
There is no one perfect vehicle. My vehicle is offended sir! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Range, recharge time, and COST are the three points of the triangle. I suppose you could include long term durability in as a fourth. I had to drive a prius for a while this weekend (long story) and was impressed with the engineering but unimpressed with the performance, but I looked at the ODO and realized the thing had 325,000 miles on it. If they can get the cost down far enough, I think the recharge time can suffer significantly and it would still be an attractive vehicle. Especially if they can get the range over some threshold which they are currently pretty close too. 100 miles per charge would probably solve 99% of the motorcycle problem for 99% of motorcycle riders. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Lots of talk about battery technology, any news on fuel cell technology? | ||
| Reepicheep |
That would make a lot of sense... a fuel cell is basically a liquid battery that you can refill. I think rate of discharge is an issue. Hard to have a big sudden reaction. Though maybe a fuel cell combined with a super capacitor could do something interesting. | ||
| Chauly |
" but I looked at the ODO and realized the thing had 325,000 miles on it. " 280K on mine, and counting. If I was looking at $.10/mile as a target, the car is now paying me $10/day to drive it! (100 mile daily commute) | ||
| Nik |
You must get crappy mileage if you have to fill up only after a hundred miles. My CityX only has a 3 gallon tank. Splitting lanes down the 15 in SoCal traffic 125-150 miles of range was the norm. I've gotten better and I've gotten worse but that was my average at the time. Sometimes I pushed it and tried to fit that extra trip in, tried to get somewhere before it closed, tried to get to an area with cheaper gas, got stuck working late and stations started to close. Usually I got lucky, sometimes I'd finally roll into a station with it coughing and sputtering. One time I tried to get to American Sport Bike, ran out at the crest of the hill on Sycamore and was able to coast down through the miraculously green light to the station on Melrose. There's a reason I carry a camping stove bottle of fuel with me now. I'm quite familiar with range anxiety. So yeah, it would've been much more convenient if my bike could've been refueling itself while it was otherwise sitting around doing nothing, even if it took hours to get to 100%. Even a 50% boost is infinitely better than the extra range my CityX gets sitting in the garage. | ||
| Sifo |
Nik, you speak of range anxiety with a gas bike that can be refilled just about anywhere in just a couple of minutes. Yet you seem to think that an electric would have been better for your 100 mile round trip commute. That would have you pretty much right on the edge of not making it home. If you have expressway travel, you probably wouldn't make it. Being forced to detour for any reason would have you pushing. That would be my range anxiety with an electric bike. | ||
| Aesquire |
Strokizator..... that's not an answer. I'm glad you're happy with your toy but I can take the implication that it's a pure local item unsuited to any real travel. I'm not anti electric vehicle. I'm realistic. The tech is now for the moderately wealthy, for some but not for others. Road warriors, salesmen, large area delivery, tech reps, etc. need a major breakthrough for electric to work. I repeat the question. How long are you willing to sit or shop while you charge while traveling? I guess most would be good with 2 to 3 times as long as filling a gas tank. 15 minutes? 40? Your opinion? | ||
| Josequinones |
Read this if you are e-curious. | ||
| Strokizator |
Different tools for different jobs. How much "real" travel do you do on a day-to-day basis? So far in the 11 months we've had the electric car, we've put 9000 (unreal)miles on it. Calling it a "toy" is merely a tactic to diminish my opinion and strengthen yours. Neither is it just for the moderately wealthy as there are plenty of attractive lease deals out there - mine is for $125/ mo, 36 mos, 10K/yr. That was with zero down - actually $5500 down offset by $5500 in rebates (yeah Calif is crazy, who knew?). In answer to your question of how long I'm willing to stop while the car takes a charge, the answer is "I'm not willing at all". I am unwilling because I can be, as the car refuels itself in 4 hours or less while it sits in my garage. I'm content that electric vehicles aren't practical for an LA to Las Vegas run. So is my Honda CT110. That doesn't mean the little Honda's a toy (OK, bad example,it's a toy) and has no practical value. Nobody's making you buy an electric or hybrid vehicle. If you are a 2+ car household though, it just might make sense. Is it sustainable? Probably not but these car are only available because the govt says they have to be. For every 500e that Fiat pushes out the door, they can sell dozens of SRT Challengers and Ram trucks at a nice profit while keeping the greenies off their backs. | ||
| Josequinones |
I ride my Zero SR for the same reason I ride my Buells, because they are FUN! I don't really care about the ecoweenie stuff, the bikes are a blast to ride and have some features Buell, heck, all motorcycle owners wish their gas powered bikes did from the factory. 1. No need to re-jet/buy a Race ECM cause the stock EPA mandated tuning is horrible. This means perfect driveablity, no lurching, no surging, the exact amount of power you want at any time from walking speed to 100 mph. And the Zero App lets you tune it some more if you want. 2. One of the reasons everyone here likes Buells because they are simpler to maintain than other bikes. My Zero has a battery pack, a charger, power controller, and a motor, all air cooled, that's it. Plus belt drive. There's virtually no maintenance required, just plug it into the wall and charge. Some other e-bikes have additional cooling systems, some have a gearbox/chain, but in general if you like simple things, an e-bike is right in your wheelhouse. 3. No driveline lash, no shifting, no vibration, no heat and finally.... 4. Virtually no noise, a highly underrated feature. (Message edited by josequinones on January 21, 2015) | ||
| Aesquire |
Strokizator....thank you. That was AN answer I was looking for. I am NOT knocking your "toys". I don't have an agenda here past factual curiosity. At a certain point an electric car will make sense for me. But not yet. The motor glider guys are all excited about electric. They like quiet, love not having to smell gas, and have a duty cycle that can work with electric. (Think sailboat vs. Powerboat guys ) . It's just too expensive for me yet. And... it is refreshing to read you don't think it's a replacement for gas.... some e-car guys go all evangelical and facts disappear in the enthusiasm. | ||
| Sifo |
That was with zero down - actually $5500 down offset by $5500 in rebates (yeah Calif is crazy, who knew?). Keep in mind this isn't a personal attack, but this is the part that really gets my goat. Why do I have to help pay for your car. If I'm not paying for it, I don't care if it's virtually a toy, or a workhorse that does everything you could ever need. I'm guessing that if you had to pay that $5500 up front yourself, you would likely see the math differently. But like I say, it's not personal. It's a deal that was offered to you by politicians that took money from me at the threat of a gun, and gave it to you. In a just world that is called stealing. In our current world it's called social justice. | ||
| Aesquire |
You have a Leaf? Like it? ( obviously yes but.... what do you like?) Electrics as a second car is a much larger customer pool than as a replacement... good point. Sifo, I get your point. I will say in a world where politicians are dictating eco-rules to get money from special interest groups, if Nissan making the Leaf lets them sell GTR's all is not lost. While I'm at it thank you all for buying my old minivan. (Credit for Clunkers) Not the best bang for the buck, perhaps, but a multifunction social engineering program that mostly did as sold. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I now work for Nissan. It's interesting to see 30-40 Leaf cars all in one spot. Nissan provides about 15 free charging stations. | ||
| Ezblast |
Time to correct some old thinking here - they can do a plug in quick charge - using 110 to 90% charged in one hour now - about the time I take when I pull into Alice's for lunch - funny enough they have a electric bike charging area you can use for a buck now. So the Zero bikes are getting popular in the Bay area for this to be so. EZ | ||
| Crusty |
I really get a charge from this thread. That's a positive thing. | ||
| Blake |
José is here! Tell us more José; did you ever miss having a clutch or gearbox? I feel like I would really miss those features. Everything else I can totally dig, as long as I can keep the old internal combusting beasts too.  | ||
| 86129squids |
"José is here! Tell us more José; did you ever miss having a clutch or gearbox? I feel like I would really miss those features." Seems like the new gen E-bikes could mimic changing gears, but- the linear power delivery wouldn't take much getting used to. "Everything else I can totally dig, as long as I can keep the old internal combusting beasts too." I kinda feel like I should start collecting 2smokes. There's someone local who has a doppelganger of my first EVER motorcycle, bored out to a 225cc. With a parts bike. I think I missed a '78 RD400 local for $750, searched for the Clist ad, failed. If I could acquire another RZ, I'd be more content with life. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you do Brad, get one with the carb in the proper location and a reed, not one of the old rotary valve with the carb on the side of the motor (for example the Kawasaki F8 Bison). The rotary valve is possibly superior technology, and a 250 will pull hard and run great, but the carb mount on the side makes everything awkward, and leads to things like $100 replacement cables. With parts getting harder to find, a reed valve setup with carb behind the cylinder will be much easier to maintain. I love my KDX and two strokes as woods bikes, but even I have little interest in riding one on the street... |
