| Author | Message | ||
     Tod662 |
There is the old badweb family love you speak of. Easquire- take a look at what parts of the world consider themselves the happiest. Sifo that is why I stated it, put your money where your mouth is. I stand by that statement and I am willing to have a third party hold onto the title of a S1W with a little bit of special history in exchange for a legally binding document that you will forfeit the equivalent monetary value of said bike in ten years, in ten years if I am right. | ||
| Aesquire |
I want a piece of this action. $5 is my bet. Betting on Tod's side. Cuba in ten years will almost certainly not be run by Raul Castro. I don't think he has the years, but I could be wrong. Also the odds on Cuba not being a puppet of China, or Russia, or having a wee counter revolution, are poor. I'm astounded the place is still a family owned business. 10 years? Good bet it won't still be. As to the embargo with business with Cuba, it didn't get Fidel out, and the Sanctions with Saddam, didn't cramp his style, ( until he went into hiding, sleeping in random upper class houses ) So perhaps NONE of the economic tools in that line are useful when dealing with religious fanatics. If you want to call them idealists, sociopaths, True Believers.... pick your label for people who are perfectly willing to kill anyone to stay in power, for the greater good, because the collective outweighs the one, it's the Will of Landru.... whatever. As a real world example, the Cult leaders Kim Jong Il and chosen son Un, don't care about how many peasants die, so would never allow independent charity that would threaten their position, and make no mistake, foreign aid brings foreign ideas, so Km has sold the aid as tribute paid to his Magnificence, by the cowering Western world afraid of his Martial Prowess. ( a view point that works for him, and has a solid ring of truth to it, since that's what it looks like TO HIM. ) Or Saddam and the Oil for Bribes program, where he and his clan certainly didn't suffer while keeping the proceeds and letting his people get the short end. The only good example of economic warfare working recently is the Regan Stealth/ABM program, that pushed the Soviet economy hard enough to show it was already crashed. Not that I "approve" of the current U.S. regime's actions on Cuba, naturally distrusting the motives of the folk in power. Easquire- take a look at what parts of the world consider themselves the happiest. Horse byproducts. How many victims of the Capitalist System put together rafts out of inner tubes and tried to immigrate to Cuba? I noticed the mine fields surrounding the Soviet Union were on their side of the fence and the watchtowers were set up to kill would be escapees, not swarms of desperate West Germans or Austrians trying to join the Workers Paradise. In any real world test Constitutionally Limited Republics have it all over Authoritarian Aristocracies, except, of course, for the career longevity of the Glorious Leaders. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The only ones who believe individuals living under totalitarian regimes are better off are those not living under totalitarian regimes. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
$57/barrel oil threatens to torpedo the socialist paradise: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/08/us-norwa y-economy-insight-idUSBREA4703Z20140508 | ||
| Tod662 |
So let's recap aesquires contribution to this thread. This is the extreme cliff note version when I get a chance I may go into deeper detail, but I got bikes to buy and stuff. Esquire called Che Guevara a racist who " Made a typical Klansman look like Mother Teresa." Then I asked for more details Esqiure told me he was also a rapist and a murderer among other things but could give me no details or reference of where he got his info. Me and several others showed evidence to the contrary. 3 quotes only 2 of which are actually words he spoke do not hold up as the definitive explanation of a man's character. I have a couple quotes of yours a little later on do these words you typed hold sway as to your character? And one of the quotes is FROM HIS DIARY AT THE AGE OF 24. nobody else has ever wrote anything that wasn't accurate when they were in their 20s I'm sure. asqire spouted of about wmd but not the ones that are referenced in an article (of course they knew they were there, who do you think sold them to saddam in the 80s, we had no problem supporting the Butcher of Bagdad (and Saddam, I'm pretty sure the bob was one of his henchmen) that were all rusty and old, and no more evidence is given. And then I made the mistake of widening the discussion by answering this drivel. Aszquire then you stated that " I am ignorant to current events" Oh yeah at one point you blabbed about rich old men turning the young into cannon fodder. Um do you know how he died?, he was shot in cold blood by agents of our country. The rich old men who masterminded this murder, what country were they in? Answer this single question please Then you spouted about "fake villages". Anybody who sees those pics and thinks I am portraying a fake side of the island, I am not sure about a person who could come to that conclusion. Oh yes then to bring it up to date, this is when you decide (after calling me ignorant of current events). THEN YOU SAID YOU AGREE WITH MY VIEW OF CURRENT EVENTS. So I'm ignorant and you agree with my view or what??? Huh??? And actually I have not had much of an opportunity to hear much about this in the last week. I haven't even had the time to read a fascinating book about choke levers yet and we can all agree that is a much more interesting topic. So some of my statements may be a little Grey but you get the idea. And aesquire we wait for your well vetted response. We started this all and I'd like to continue this discussion but I don't have time to poke the flame of reason at the whole pack of hyenas, so let's discuss this Mano El Mano so get off your soap box and let's hear what facts you use to defend your position. Once again disclaimer, I I'm typing on a phone and at this point have not recently researched my opinions, and yes some of it is just that but aesquire I will defend it as I have time to sight my sources Your move | ||
| Strokizator |
Hey, if you want to idolize the guy, be my guest. There are far worthier people out there but to each his own. Just don't try to convince me that Che was one of the good guys. | ||
| Hughlysses |
it's the Will of Landru.... whatever. Patrick, I LOL'ed. Great Star Trek reference. | ||
| Pwnzor |
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| Aesquire |
A stopped analog clock us right twice a day. You bet Cuba won't be under Castro's rule in a decade? I bet you're right. I won't disagree with true statements or in this case good logical guesses just because I disagree with other things you say. That kind of dishonesty just annoys me and every honest person. The Potemkin village is what the celebrity tourists see. Disney Cuba, same in N. Korea and China and not long ago the Soviet Empire. Read Robert Heinlein's true stories about touring the Soviet Union and his simple method to determine how good life is for different lands. You want to like a hero of the revolution? Be aware that ideology is fundamentally and purposely dishonest. The myths they push have less truth than tales of Hercules. | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
Todd has a few good points. Che Guevera has been displayed by the US and anti-castro forces as an evil racist murderer. But he is a hero to many people in Latin America for helping overthrow a corrupt, US backed dictatorship. The Batista regime was kept in power by the US govt, organized crime and big US business. The fact that he led a popular uprising and won and then thumbed his nose at the US is why he viewed in such stark contrasts. Other than a few ramblings in his diary and sitting on tribunals of executions of ex batista regime members. Nothing has been proven. Pure propaganda on both sides. the real Che was somewhere between. His only "real sin" was being a communist when the US was severely anti communist and telling the us to go eff itself. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm fine with telling the U.S. to f itself. I support my country and it's founding principles. Not necessarily the leaders. My oath is not to a man but the ideal and the rule of law limiting the desire to rule instead of serve. If I had been a Cuban back then I may well have joined the revolution. Then they would have killed me. On the close order of one billion people have been murdered in the 20th century by communism. Not in war. Murdered by their own government. True, most of them were murdered by the Maoists and Soviets. Cuba is small potatoes in comparison. Cambodia beats them by a large margin. How many has the Castro bros killed and are still killing? Hard to tell. They lie. We should still be anti communist. That we are not so much is a triumph of evil men. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Finding good in Che or the Castro Brothers is like finding the brightest, shiniest part of a dog turd. | ||
| Tod662 |
Aesquire I am not defending communism but I am combating bs. A billion people huh? I can't wait to see where you came up with that number, please enlighten me. | ||
| Tod662 |
I mean come on man, your own web page- the only fact based bit of evidence you have spouted- lists 169 million people. With math like that, wow, just wow Oh and merry Christmas to all! | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
I suppose the flip side to communism should be dictators for life propped up by foreign interests outside of a country. Or extreme right wing neo fascists. As long as it isn't communism it is o.k.? | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh no.... there is also monarchy, anarchy, and other great ways to oppress the masses. The other side of communist con dictatorship isn't dictatorship without the con. It's representative republic. Since we learned from the Greeks democracy doesn't work. So since my guess at a death toll seems too high ......One university study which only documented the murder numbers equal to the entire 20th century U.S. population............ it's ok? Merry Christmas. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Does the existence of "neo-fascism" somehow justify or legitimize communism? | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
Not all. just seems to be the preferred form of Govt. for Latin America countries that the US govt and US big business prefer. | ||
| Aesquire |
Sure seems like it. That's why many in S. America rightfully resent the U.S. interference in their countries. And not just supporting corrupt regimes but Not supporting regimes that don't suck. Just a few years ago the President of the U.S. was vocal in his support of an apparent bad guy kicked out of office by his own legislature. I thought our Government's response was shameful, wrong, and badly thought out. I also wondered who had bribed our public servants to support what sure seemed to be the bad guy. As a more recent example. ....... look at at allegations of massive campaign contributions from middle eastern countries including Syria, and the irrational ( to me, any way) policies there. | ||
| Aesquire |
Btw I still somewhat ironically applaud Che's son exploiting his name to make money. He certainly has a better claim to exploit that myth than t shirt makers in foreign lands. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's hard to imagine a tour of Germany to look at Adolph's wall paper legacy. Although with the growth of neonazi marches I bet tours of the Eagle's nest and the death bunker site would get some takers. The difference is half a century of propaganda to sell a very bitter product. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Wouldn't it be more consistent to oppose communism as well as fascism and croney capitalism equally as corrupt and inherently evil forms of enslavement rather than, when pressed on the evils of Che, Castro, Mao or Pol Pot, point at other evil and unjust forms of despotism and attempt to defend or justify communism? Could it be that, aside from unpopular and expensive direct interventionist policies, the easier path is to prop up despots whose motivations can be more easily controlled? Another way to look at it, would we have an easier time influencing strongly idealistic communist regimes or fascist despots? Given the longevity of the Castro regime, it would seem the answer is evident. | ||
| Aesquire |
I can't find a thing to argue about in that post. Pragmatic, historically accurate. The moral issue lies in....Could it be that, aside from unpopular and expensive direct interventionist policies, the easier path is to prop up despots whose motivations can be more easily controlled? Another way to look at it, would we have an easier time influencing strongly idealistic communist regimes or fascist despots? I don't want to support any bad guys. Picking the lesser of evils just sucks... in so many ways. It's how the game has been played for the history of the species, though. | ||
| Aesquire |
Tod, those really are great pics. Thanks again. I certainly don't disagree that U.S. foreign policy, especially with our neighbors on these continents, can be wrong. It is by nature somewhat variable ( as factions rise and fall ) and thus crazy, Schizophrenic. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sometimes it isn't even about "supporting" bad guys. Sometimes it's creating a desired behavioral result based upon the circumstances at the time, given the party in power at the time. If the maximum reach of power is eight years, how much long game can you really play? We can't even decide whether Iran is an enemy or an ally within THIS eight years. Part of the advantage of a democratically elected Republic is that power is handed over, from party to party, without bloodshed. Part of the disadvantage of a democratically elected Republic is that power is handed over, from party to party, frequently. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"On the close order of one billion people have been murdered in the 20th century by communism. " No. Bad/evil leaders killed close to a billion people, not communism (if that number is factual). Marx didn't kill anyone. Neither did Engels. That said, how many have been killed by capitalist countries? I mean, if we're going to talk numbers, how many people have been killed by soldiers of capitalist countries in the 20th century. What about socialist countries? etc | ||
| Aesquire |
Communism is the mechanism to get bad evil leaders in power. That is in fact it's purpose. All else is lies. Your question about soldiers? False and foolish. How many Western republics in the 20th century had multimillion citizen casualties caused by their own government? How many "People's Republics"? | ||
| Aesquire |
My billion figure may be off. I bet you $10 it's correct as to order of magnitude. Could be only six hundred million murders. The University of Hawaii numbers are far lower than reality, but are just what they have documented. Remember the numbers for Soviet & Chinese State murders are hard to count since they lie and insist the number is zero. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You can put 54 million murders on our tab as a result of Progressive ideologies. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/12/23/will-norma lized-relations-between-cuba-and-us-mean-new-parts -for-old-classic/ |
