| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
I'm confused, I thought you wanted a fact based discussion, instead of regurgitating old tired lies and propaganda? I watched Bush's address the night he announced the re-invasion of Iraq. Myself. First hand. I didn't rely on biased broadcasters to tell us what he really meant. His statements and meaning were absolutely clear. We were launching another attack because they were obligated to give us enough access to verify that they did NOT have a developing weapons of mass destruction effort. They didn't. We told them again give us the access or we will take the access. They didn't. We took the access. I'm not happy about what we did post 911, but it was a bad situation forced by bad people and we had a problem we had to solve. My biggest beef about it is lack of transparency. If we have to do bad things, we should be up front about it at the time. It will give us a short term tactical disadvantage, and cost lives, which we should accept as part of the price of being a true free democratic republic. | ||
| Sifo |
Let me add this on the WMD thing. One of the big issues that Reepicheep skirted around, but didn't go into was the existing WMD's that we knew Saddam had. They were supposed to be accounted for and scheduled for destruction under the UN inspectors watch, a requirement of the peace agreement from Gulf War I. They were claiming that these weapons had been destroyed during the war and could not be accounted for. These were in fact THE WMDs that we were looking for. The fact that they were moved to be hidden amongst conventional weapons, and therefore not given proper care, and therefore becoming very dangerous to use years later when they were finally found, does nothing but confirm the fact that Saddam 1) Had these WMDs and 2) Purposely hid these WMDs from the UN inspectors as was alleged by the Bush administration. To now claim that these aren't the WMDs in question is pure fabrication. | ||
| Aesquire |
Defending Che based on his legend is like defending Mao based on the movie "Hero". Might be pretty but has no basis in fact. Yes, I enjoyed "Hero", but I also understood the context. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I'm confused, I thought you wanted a fact based discussion, Yep... confused. Liberals lay back and bait others until they can take a cheap jab based on... what, fairy dust? Whatever. Waste... of... time. | ||
| Aesquire |
Not a total waste, I didn't know Che was homophobic. Learn something new every day. I don't care that he was anti gay, once you get past mass murderer the little stuff usually isn't relevant. Unless Che went after gays like Adolph did. Then you get into hidden motivations and trying to understand evil rationalization. That's usually a waste unless you're trying to predict the next evil act. | ||
| Sifo |
Why do these "back and forth discussions" always seem to end with pointing out the numerous fallacies that have been foisted by the Progressives? I wouldn't mind it so much, but in three to six months the same folks will foist the same stuff again hoping it won't get shot down again the same way. I have serious doubts that anything has been learned by these folks. I still think it's a worthwhile thing to do though. There may be someone who really never have considered the facts and may actually learn from this. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Mental disorder. | ||
| Reindog |
Che Guevera was a vile psychopath who has become the darling of the Left simply because he looks good on a T-shirt. Read "The Americano: Fighting with Castro for Cuba's Freedom" by Aran Shetterly, which is the true story of William Morgan who fought with Castro for a Democratic Cuba. After winning the Revolution while slipping into Communism, Castro and Che executed Morgan. | ||
| Reindog |
todd662: Here is a suggestion. Instead of you demanding "facts" from people who disagree with you, why don't YOU provide some facts to support YOUR position? Your silence is being received loud and clear. Please fix your horrendous grammar in future posts as it is a window to your intelligence and is a factor in how your intended audience perceives you. | ||
| Aesquire |
Time and time again....... the students at the barriers are fodder. Young, strong, dedicated, easily fooled, useful idiots. Then the old men have them shot. Once you've taken power you don't want those college idiots to be led by some who want the power you stole. Those "Occupy" fools? First up against the wall. You may have noticed the leaders stayed in fancy hotels while the useful stayed in tents. Rich greedy men run these young idealists like cattle. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sadly, those cattle run by rich greedy men deep down know that they are being run like cattle by rich greedy men. As a result, when real people of principle seek to further real freedoms and consecrated rights, they are accused of being run by rich greedy men like cattle. The same folks who rail against the evil Koch Brothers are the same folks who list their occupation as "protester". Are you really that principled if you have to be paid to hold beliefs? | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm willing to admit my beliefs about for instance, George Washington are based on what I was taught. just like the little Che t-shirt drones were taught the guy was a hero. However. Let's examine just one aspect of each imperfect man's life. When given power political power, after a military career, how did each retire? More importantly, each man is considered a hero to a philosophy of human governance. One philosophy has murdered more people than any other single cause, including war, total. In the history of man. More importantly to the survivors, they have terrible economic and ecological conditions, directly caused by the philosophy. The other produces more wealth, technology, food, and freedom than any other in the history of man. Neither is perfect by a long shot. But I suspect perfection is unattainable. | ||
| Strokizator |
Why do these "back and forth discussions" always seem to end with pointing out the numerous fallacies that have been foisted by the Progressives? I wouldn't mind it so much, but in three to six months the same folks will foist the same stuff again hoping it won't get shot down again the same way Kind of reminds me of every Civil War battle movie I've seen. The rebs are charging into the union lines when the guy carrying the flag gets hit. Some other reb drops his rifle to pick up the flag and continues to charge the line only to suffer a similar fate. Same for the progressives when their flag carrier gets plugged. These guys never seem to run out of cannon fodder. | ||
| Slaughter |
"Arguing on the internet" and "Special Olympics" Google it and look at the images You'll get the picture | ||
| Tod662 |
There has been no facts stated and no evidence given except by greatlakes related to the original topic. I am not going to try to have a civil discussion, look at the petty insults already thrown my way. I do not currently have the time to research fact based arguments, not that that has stopped most of you. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Convince us that Che was a swell guy and should proudly be worn on t-shirts. We'll wait. | ||
| Aesquire |
When and where were these statements made. I don't consider the Internet a viable source. Words can easily be taken out of context, actions speak much louder. I am aware of some of the arguments that are going to be made. Instead of 40 Google searches and a cut and paste hack job, let's have a real discussion. The Congo machine gunner comment isn't racist it's a complaint about untrained troops. I dint have time to look at the background of your other statements but words are words, his actions s don't equal the monster you picture. Did he call for the death of 150 people during the revolution of Cuba, yes. Not cool,at the same time he was starting schools and hospitals. how many deaths did he cause compared to the average US president? http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF | ||
| Tod662 |
Let me state i believe that there is a wide gulf between Che's ideas of worker rights and fidels move towards Russian style communism. Many who have studied what went on attribute Che's rambling to the Congo and through Latin America was the result of a falling out with fidel over Russian influence. And I would like to apologize for my oh so illegible button pushing, attempt to type on a phone. buenas noches hasta maņana | ||
| Sifo |
So you don't want C&P, but would rather have "real discussion", then simply make the claim that no "facts" have been presented. BS! You simply ignore what is being presented. You were treated very civilly up to the point where you had bailed out of the "discussion" that YOU asked for almost immediately. Sadly, as has been pointed out, this is the typical MO of the progressive mind. You do demonstrate the point I made of how the progressive manages to come back some months later, seemingly no wiser about the facts. It's because you simply don't acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions. | ||
| Tod662 |
slaughter I don't even have to google it to know that this might be about the only thing we could agree on. As I read through I still see very little worth refuting. Sifo we could have a interesting conversation if we could pare it down to just the two of us. But I am not going to try to wade through all this trash, I've got better things to do. | ||
| Hootowl |
"I've got better things to do." "Please inform me of what a horrible person he was." You seem conflicted. | ||
| Reindog |
tod662: What is being received by your audience is that you are unable to respond with facts because you already know that your position is indefensible. You make excuses for not continuing the debate because you know you have already lost and you hurl insults while claiming other people are insulting you. Passive aggressive personalities are tiring. | ||
| Sifo |
Somehow this seems fitting...  | ||
| Reindog |
Once again, the ProgLibs of Badweb let their emotions get the better of them, hurl mud, provide no facts to their arguments, accuse people who do present facts and reasoned argument, and then disappear in a huff when they have lost...until next round. Not quite...one of the ProgLibs of Badweb who is still here, threatened to punch the teeth in of someone he disagreed with. This is the hallmark of cowardice. This is typical of Liberalism where the ends justify the means. Still care to argue about the wonderfulness of Che Guevara? I thought not because you are unable to do so. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I bet I can guess who that Badwebber is. | ||
| Greatlaker |
Good news. It looks like you guys can get to actually go on that Cuban motorcycle tour sooner than anyone previously thought. If any of you guys do decide to go to Cuba, I would strongly recommend seeing Havana over any of the tourist resorts. Some of the architecture, certainly the buildings which have been restored, are quite nice. There are Havana hotels that have retained their great art deco influence, better than what you see in South Beach Miami. Original glass and steel and aluminum accents that have been maintained over the years. All built by old school gangster money. There are some grand old plantation homes that have remained with the same family since before the revolution that are worth seeing also. Cuba is a bit of a time warp when you travel there. A lot of development just seems to have stopped circa 1959, which makes for an interesting experience. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/18/america n-alan-gross-released-from-cuban-prison-official-s ays/ | ||
| Greatlaker |
Reindog. Are you calling me a ProgLib? Maybe we should take things off the board to discuss. I didn't argue anything about Che. I posted a link that was contrary to popular opinion on this board. Point being, there are two sides to most stories. I can't say I personally have enough research about the guy to compile an opinion. I seriously doubt though that Che was an actual racist as stated on this board. Cuba, as a country, is extremely culturally diverse. Why would Che tolerate being in a country with such a large black population if he was an actual racist? It's not like he had to stay in Cuba after the revolution. Why would he marry a woman who herself had a black parent if he was an actual racist? Why would Che end segregation in Cuba if he was an actual racist? A couple of sentences, taken in or out of context, do not make a man. Lots of accusations made on this board about the character of people. Lots of labels get thrown around and attached to people who might have a different opinion. I wish we were standing face to face when we were having these little discussions. I'd like to look you right in the eye and see what kind of dude you really are. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's possible Che had a change of heart later in life. Just as the Grand Klegal of the KKK in Congress claimed he had. Feel free to believe either or both. I'm doubtful since both acted under political organizations that lie about their racism while exploiting it. You can be tarred with that brush your whole life just because you once spent years as a virulent racist. The political movement of both Che and what's his name are both inherently racist in the roots and dishonest as to being champions of the minority. Race war. .... using hate to gain power, telling the underclass they are exploited and using them as fodder are basic elements of Revolution. Rarely if ever does the movement as a group reform in any way but vocally. The D Party in the U.S. claims that somehow instantly all the racists defected to the R Party to follow the racist Goldwater/Nixon/Regan ( depending on which generation lie ) when in each case it was abolitionist D members ( mostly but not all Christians ) that voted in the R candidate. The 20th century leftist take over of the D party is responsible for the contempt it's leaders have for truth. to a lesser extent that is true of R leaders too. Not so much the citizens. Note that Bill Clinton's mentor was racist and Bill accused of being too..... mostly by pundits.....until it pleased Obama's crew to do so. Che is a hero to the Revolution. I don't recall him recant the philosophy that has murdered on the order of a billion souls. | ||
| Aesquire |
As to Greatlaker's suggestion that you tour Havana. ... On the one hand I object to propping up the Castro dictatorship. Which is where your money would go. OTOH if you actually got outside the Potemkin tourist fake areas you could judge for yourselves the nature of the workers paradise. I suspect any lovely art deco hotel is a Soviet Disney artifice. But I could be wrong. I try and avoid travel to places that throw loudmouths like me in prison for criticizing the Glorious Leader. I live where the Glorious Leader just wants anyone who disagrees with him to leave.... so it's just a matter of time....... | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
I am humored by the fact that some here have issues with "propping up" the Castro regime. When Americans have "propped" up countless govts. thru trade, tourism that are counter to the American values on human rights, freedom. China being the largest and worst, Russia, Vietnam, Malaysia. Quite a few med eastern countries. Lets talk about Chile, Argentina in the 1960's and early 70's. The "Batista" regime that was in power prior to the "Castro" revolution was repressive to its people and was in power for a few decades. It was overthrown by the people of Cuba. The US turned a blind eye because it thought Castro would be friendly. Much to their embarrassment Castro turned out to be communist and anti US. (Message edited by aaron thomas on December 19, 2014) |
