| Author | Message | ||
     Greatlaker |
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/12-old-boy-brandishing-f ake-gun-dies-being-182242043.html | ||
| Oldog |
SAD, The officer will have to live with the knowledge that he has killed a child. The parents have lost a child, they have some fault in this, They failed to instruct their child on how to respond to a police officers commands, When an officer tells some one to do some thing it carries the force of law most times the LEO simply wants to get control of the situation so that the correct action can be taken This child would still be alive had he raised his hands, It does however lead to darker surmizes.... | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Based on what's been reported so far, I don't blame the cop. "Probably fake" isn't good enough for me to risk getting shot. I know everyone is gonna want to tie this to Ferguson, but I'm sure a more local event was on this cops mind. Little over a week ago an off duty cop was shot in a bar in Akron, and his funeral was Saturday. | ||
| Blake |
A cop's job is to protect and serve, not defend his own life at any cost. A better cop would not have been so quick to shoot. | ||
| Blake |
It's in no way tied to Ferguson, where a 6'-4", 295 LB thug attacked a police officer after committing assault and robbery. | ||
| Ourdee |
Quote from article in link in OP: "We will not accept any excuse why this young man was shot down unjustly," said Art McKoy, a Cleveland community activist at the demonstration. This prejudice attitude is the commonality with the mind set I call Ferguson. | ||
| Reepicheep |
These will always be tough when colossal stupidity intersects with legitimate fear for ones own life... such as this case. From what I can gather... 1) Kid with a bb gun version of 1911 (which is just about impossible to tell from a real 1911, as it lacked the orange ring), runs around a park being stupid. This is a life risking activity, just like if he had decided to try and play chicken with cars on the interstate or trains on the track. Some huge combination of stupidity and bad judgment. 2) Cop responds. He is in a high tension high risk situation... it's just an 11 year old kid, but it's not like an 11 year old kid would never have a gun and never shoot you. So this is now a can of gasoline inches from a fire. 3) Cop points gun at kid and orders him to raise hands. This is probably correct protocol. But it may also be a mistake that a good cop could avoid if they were able to correctly assess the situation. There are two possible situations here... 11 year old kid is a thug ready to kill cop, or 11 year old kid is a colossally stupid 11 year old kid being colossally stupid. In either case, cop drawing weapon and pointing it at kid is very likely to immediately trigger a crises. 4) Kid, instead, reaches for gun in waistband. Add a couple of zeros to amount of stupidity. Was he just suddenly scared out of his mind (as many 11 year old kids inevitably would be)? Or was it a real gun and a psycho kid trying to kill cop? Cop has no way to know. 5) Cop makes another decision that I wish nobody would ever have to make. It sounds like he shot the kid while the kid had the gun in hand, but was not pointing it at the cop. It's easy to say that this was wrong, but the difference between gun in hand pointing away and gun in hand of the guy that just killed you is fractions of a second and mostly dumb luck. What do I think the cause of the death was? Duh, a colossally stupid 11 year old kid. Do I wish a really talented officer could have found a way to keep himself safe and resolve the situation without killing the kid? Yes, deeply. | ||
| Ourdee |
It is truly a sad situation. I know how stupid I give my kids credit for being at times. Nut doesn't fall far from the tree. Kids are kids. Poor people that are left. Need to go pray. | ||
| Sifo |
What do I think the cause of the death was? Duh, a colossally stupid 11 year old kid. I have to conditionally at least, disagree with you on that point. Where did the 11 year old get the bb gun? That's where the fault lies IMO. Sadly, probably the parent(s). So I'm on the bus last week picking kids up from the elementary school. I have a first grade girl telling me a story of how a classmate had a bb gun in school today. My mind is racing with all kinds of things at this point, including the somewhat amazing fact that there wasn't a school lock down going on complete with cable news coverage. I do manage to try to make it a lesson that something like this should NEVER be taken to school. I'm sure he got into lots of trouble for breaking this rule. So about 5 minutes late, on another bus, the driver is letting kids off at a stop, when a bunch of kids run forward saying that someone just shot someone else with a gun! Keep in mind, the driver of this bus has no clue of anything going on that day with a bb gun. He runs back there expecting to find bleeding and who knows what, only to later consider that he could have been the next target. The gun by now has been stashed in yet another students back pack, and the kids are claiming ignorance of anything. Then one of the kids picks up the bb (turned out to be an air soft pellet) from the floor and give it to the driver, so he knows something is up. My point in telling this story right now is that the school knew about the gun earlier in the day, and let the kid take it home on the bus! This decision was made by a very educated adult who has been put in a position of authority. While I'm glad to see that this wasn't blown into national news, it was colossally stupid to send this kid home on the bus with the gun. There is a middle ground, like having the parent(s) come get the gun from school. This "toy gun" was also a real gun replica that can easily be misidentified BTW. If you choose to let your kids have things like this to play with, you are responsible to make sure that your kid understands some of the implications involved. I hate to say it, but you have to make sure that the kid understands that a cop can't tell if it's a lethal threat, or simply a toy. If your kid is still to immature to deal with this, then that toy needs to be treated like you would treat a "real" gun. Make sure that he can't get hold of it without supervision. For those not familiar with air soft guns, they shoot a plastic pellet that is pretty harmless, but safety glasses should be worn. I have a friend who's kids have air soft wars, and I'm told they hurt less than paint balls. | ||
| Reepicheep |
We have a few cheap airsoft guns around the house we picked up at a garage sale. They can range from "dirt cheap" to "stupid expensive". They shoot plastic bb's out of (generally) smooth bore barrels. Even the dirt cheap ones look very much like a real gun. Many (even the cheap ones) are even made of real metal, the slides generally operate, they use fairly normal looking magizines, all the safeties and decockers are there, the hammers really ••••, etc. I don't know if all come with orange tips or not. I think all of ours do. They vary in power. In general, they could penetrate a piece of paper from short distance. Maybe put a little tear in an aluminum can or dent drywall. But because the plastic bb's are so light, they don't carry much energy. They are annoying to be shot with, but if you have safety glasses on I don't think they could hurt you. | ||
| Court |
>>>I don't know if all come with orange tips or not. I think all of ours do. And "bad boys" have been emulating that paint on real weapons for years. | ||
| Ratbuell |
The unfortunate lesson here, and in Ferguson, is simple. Don't make a move towards a cop. PERIOD. If they say "stop and drop"...DO IT, and sort it out after the adrenaline has worn off. If someone is aggressive towards authority (law enforcement, teachers, parents, whatever)...expect consequences. THINK. This is not an xbox. There is not a reset button. | ||
| Aesquire |
This is pure rush to judgment without knowing the facts...... but. I feel for the kids relatives and friends. I feel for the cop who is scarred for life. I BLAME the anti-freedom-guns-responsibility movement. Some person saw a kid with a gun. Could be a toy. Could be a less lethal gun. ( bb-airsoft ) could be a deadly weapon. This person decided not to be a responsible adult. Then called the police, giving up responsibility to State Authority. There could be a number of reasons this person made that decision. Fear of getting hurt. Fear of getting in trouble. Fear of looking foolish. Or over riding responsibility to another. ( another child ) 3 out of 4 of the above reasons are because of a sick culture. I could be wrong. I don't have all the facts. ( which makes me more "right" than CNN ) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Interesting view Aesquire. That was definitely one of many steps in in this event that escalated the situation while removing salient facts. When you call over a guy with a hammer to drive in a screw, you may be part of the problem. I'll have to ponder that for a bit. It makes me appreciate my small town. If it happened here, it would probably have been some kid I coached or that my kids know, and I would have just called his parents and told them to get their damn fool kid home, take away that BB gun, and pick a time when I can take them all out and teach them proper gun safety, and how to be a proper OSG (Original Saltine Gangsta). Or probably just taken the BB gun myself, much less nervous because I would have a pretty good sense of the kid and what he is capable of. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Reep nailed it as what I'm hearing locally. Blake, a kid puts what looks like a gun in his waist band as you arrive on scene. Then as you approach and tell him to put his hands up, he reaches for it. The kid left him no choice. It's a horrible situation that we would've never heard about had the kid done what he was told. If your son, daughter, spouse, etc were a cop, what would you want them to do? Can't "protect and serve" if you're dead. | ||
| Sifo |
I want to make it clear that I'm not blaming the cop in this. You have to go with department policy, training, etc. to determine if it was a reasonable shooting or not according to their rules of engagement. The reality is that the cop could have waited one more split second to see if this kid was going to point the gun at him. Yes it creates more risk for the cop. In this situation, it would probably have made sense. Take a kid just a couple of years older, and put him in a different setting, it may not make as much sense. I get to examine this from the comfort of my couch, taking my time to think about it. The cop, not so much. Still, the cop had his gun fixed on the suspect. The likely hood of the kid out shooting him in this situation is a very low percentage proposition. I don't know the neighborhood that this took place in. I don't know the kind of training the cops there get. I know in Chicago, the Chief of Police have basically threatened CCL holders that if a cop sees you with a gun that his officers are trained to shoot you. That's got all kinds of wrong in it. Did this cop get the same sort of training? Is it a high crime area? I really have no idea. Reep makes a good point about knowing the people in the area. Still, the cop has to take in the entire situation and make a split second life/death decision. A bad outcome can still come from a good decision. Does anyone know if the race of the kid has been verified? I was looking for that when this story first hit the news and couldn't find anything about his race, or the race of the cop. I kind of assumed the kid must not be black simply because it wasn't picked up as another example of black kids being used as targets. I'm just kind of curious. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I posted this in the Ferguson post. http://fox8.com/2014/11/23/rec-center-shooting-dea th-prompts-lawmaker-to-introduce-new-toy-gun-law/ That airsoft gun is hard to distinguish from a real 1911. At a glance, it's impossible. Looking at the pictures, it's pretty easy to see the confusion | ||
| Badlionsfan |
The kid was black Sifo. Here's a little background on the area this happened-- http://www.19actionnews.com/clip/10887424/cudell-r ec-center-comes-with-a-history-of-guns-and-gangs | ||
| Sifo |
Thanks BLF. Sounds like a cop in an area like that might just be a little bit more on the side of shoot at the sight of a gun rather than wait to see what he's going to do with it. Sad any way you cut it. | ||
| Ratbuell |
All the more reason for the "parents" to try and educate their kid not to point a gun - toy or no toy - at a cop. "Boy...if the po-lice say drop, you DROP. Remember that nice Rice boy from down the street? He didn't drop...and we know what happened to HIM." TEACH the children... | ||
| Rick_a |
When I was a kid a college boy in the neighborhood foolishly pointed a replica gun from a car. He was surrounded in minutes by police and was confronted by drawn guns. You'd better believe he was smart enough to listen to directions from that point on. He was charged with brandishing a weapon. Anytime we played "guns" in the neighborhood everybody's guns were pointed down or put away when the law came around. My point is, even at my young age at the time, ya just know better. Who knows what this kid was thinking, but it sure wasn't right. We all wanna blame everyone but the person responsible for putting themselves there. I'm about sick of such nonsense. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Exactly Sifo, especially when this happened a week before 4o minutes south of cleveland. I'm sure no one has heard about this, a black man shot a white off duty police officer. http://www.cleveland.com/akron/index.ssf/2014/11/m an_accused_of_killing_akron_p.html | ||
| Aesquire |
Normally when someone blames "the culture" it's a cop out because there are people involved who make the culture. That is true here. Bloomberg, the Brady center to exploit a crippled guy, Barry, Holder etc. All deliberately created a culture where some think it's a good idea to call the police when they see a toy gun. That children die because of this deliberate perversion of our lives is acceptable collateral damage to the leftist (D) anti civil rights and individual freedom and responsibility crowd. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Video of the actions of the kid and his eventual end. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland- metro/tamir-rice-shooitng-video-warning-cleveland- police-release-surveillance-video | ||
| Iamike |
One of the reports said the caller told dispatch a couple of times that he thought the gun was fake. Too bad that info wasn't passed on to the responding officers. That maybe would have given him that judgement to wait a second more. The story about the fake rifle in the car reminded me of an older fraternity brother. They had travelled to watch Iowa State play Kansas State. On the way home he pointed a fake rifle at some other cars. As they approached KC they realized that they were being surrounded by Kansas' finest. They were real lucky they didn't spend a night in jail. | ||
| Greatlaker |
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cleveland-release-video- police-shooting-12-old-boy-180112323.html | ||
| Ratbuell |
Both Rice and Brown were African American. No shit, sherlock. Why waste print/bandwidth to point this out in its own paragraph, other than to fan the flames?? | ||
| Firemanjim |
I was just at Big 5 sporting goods getting a Ruger and the display case was full of airsoft pistols that looked EXACTLY like their real counterparts, I was amazed they were sold looking like that, and more than a bit angry it was allowed. I am pretty sure I would not have been able to see the little orange bit if I was confronted with one of these! | ||
| Thumper74 |
I'm going to paint all of my real guns Hunter Orange... | ||
| Sifo |
That maybe would have given him that judgement to wait a second more. Seeing the video, at that range, you would be extremely foolish to wait that extra second. Aiming isn't really going to take any time. It's pretty much point and shoot. Sad. |
