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Greatlaker
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2014 - 11:19 pm: | 
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I would love to know if the cop that shot that kid thinks that waiting an extra second or two would be foolish. I wonder if the cop feels he was justified in killing a 12 year old within seconds or a single second of feeling threatened. What seems truly foolish to me is to pull a car up within seven feet of the kid in the first place and gunning him down within two seconds of stopping the car. But hey, it's the kids fault right? He shouldn't be waving around an Airsoft gun in the first place. The kid is entirely responsible for his own death, right Sifo?
Its open season on kids with Airsoft guns now I guess. Sooner or later some concealed carry citizen is going to make a rash decision and shoot some kid with an Airsoft gun because he felt threatened too. Is there any point where a line should be drawn? Maybe kids 10 year of age and younger should be "off limits". Maybe suburban kids should get a break. But definitely black kids in bad neighbourhoods who are waving Airsoft pistols around out in the open have it coming to them.
The whole incident in Cleveland was an obvious clusterf*ck in communication. In my eyes there is gross negligence on behalf of both cops involved. Instead of pointing the blame at a TWELVE!!! year old child, or the parents, or Airsoft, I would really like to know why that Cleveland cop feels like he can be judge, jury and executioner within seconds of approaching a suspect.
"Serve and protect" should be about cops serving and protecting the community, not about the cop's serving and protecting their own lives at whatever the cost.
The cop that killed that kid failed at his duties miserably. The video confirms it. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 04:08 am: |
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"Open season on kids with airsoft guns. "
Correct.
A multi million dollar campaign is underway, paid for by rich white racists. Mostly leftists with a D.
Bloomberg is only a R because he couldn't buy the D nomination at the time. ( the D's already had a guy and the NYC R's were more bribable that year )
What does Bloomberg, the Brady center to exploit a crippled guy, the occupy shills, and the outside agitating groups in Ferguson have in common?
All leftists who think killing black children giving them power is great. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 04:15 am: |
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Consider.
Million$ spent to make it evil to have a kid play with toy guns.
Million$ spent to make it ok to call the police on children.
Million$ spent on making it ok to shoot a child who js not instantly obedient to a representative of the Holy State. ( It's explicitly part of Common Core )
Who spends this money to kill children to gain power?
The same folk who want minority owned businesses to burn. |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 07:58 am: |
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So... Cops shouldn't defend themselves?
Kid stands over a bucket full of gasoline with what looks like a match.
I tackle the kid, with the intent of saving him and others from serious burns.
Kid's arm gets broken.
Turns out, it wasn't a match at all, he was just pretending.
I get sued.
So.... My attitude should be "f*ck it, let him get burnt up." |
Greatlaker
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 08:47 am: |
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Pwnzor. I didn't say anything about cops not defending themselves. In the instance of the Cleveland killing, there was no defence by the cop. There was never any shot fired by the suspect that the cop had to defend himself against. In Cleveland the cop, both cops, were on an offensive manoeuvre that escalated an already tense situation into a situation that turned deadly for a 12 year old. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 09:10 am: |
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It's not color. It's not politics. It's not "police brutality".
It's PARENTING.
Teach your kids NOT to point anything - toy gun, real gun, finger, garden hose, ANYTHING - at a cop. Ever.
Teach children some respect, and it doesn't make a lick of difference what color they are or what party is in power.
But that point will continue to be lost on all the idiots out there who want to turn it into some political witch-hunt. "It's the fault of the party I don't like" / "it's the fault of the politician I don't like" / "it's the fault of the race wars".
Bullshit.
It's the PARENTS FAULT. End of discussion. |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 09:39 am: |
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There was never any shot fired by the suspect that the cop had to defend himself against.
So... for a cop to defend himself, someone needs to be actually shooting at him, NOT just pointing a gun.
Got it, thanks.
I watched the video over and over. The "kid" was walking around brandishing a gun persistently for a considerable period of time.
I think the mistake was when the cops pulled up so close to him. I think I'd have put about 50 feet between us and use my PA system to address the individual, ordering him to the ground. But then, that's me.
Sucks that the kid is dead, but what exactly was going through his mind? Pointing a gun, any gun, all over the place, AT THE PARK!!! |
Greatlaker
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 10:54 am: |
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If it's the parents fault, and by the looks of media reports both of Rice's parents were seriously deficient, then perhaps we should just execute all children of deficient parents and be done with it. Maybe create a litmus test where we put an airsoft gun in their hand and if they don't put up their hands within 1.5 seconds of a squad car pulling up within seven feet of them, shoot them like dogs. That seems fair.
Pwnzor is correct though. The driver of the squad car made a vital mistake by not putting more distance between the car and the suspect. Using the PA system to address the suspect makes perfect sense. The cop driving the squad car was a veteran cop, he should have known better than to put the rookie beside him in jeopardy of a shooter in the first place. The whole thing is pathetically tragic. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 11:26 am: |
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Lots to agree on here. Kid was biggest contributor by doing everything he could possibly do in order to be this years Darwin award winner. Cops handled the situation in a tactical fashion that was legal and within policy, but probably not the best choice for the situation. Parents likely missed some opportunities to help kid not be top Darwin contender. Media is again missing an opportunity to actually save lives and educate people how to not stick their hands in blenders because of a rabid bias.
I think the cops could have handled it better, but only by taking a lot of risk and by being an unusually talented officer. The call didn't come in as "11 year old with modified air soft gun being stupid in the park". It came in as "unidentified male brandishing handgun in gang area". The cops didn't have a lot of time to be able to reassess the situation.
As for the concealed carry part, yes, the kid may very well have been shot by one of them also, for all the same reasons. If I am walking in the park, and if I were a CCW permit holder who was carrying, and that gun came out, I would have to assume it was real (it looked real) and assume it was being drawn to fire at me.
Why else would somebody draw a full sized 1911 from their waistband in the middle of the park when I am walking by? I would try and escape first if I could, but in an open park, that's a pretty sketchy prospect.
The lesson here is that if you try and make people believe you are going to kill them, people are going to believe you are trying to kill them and respond accordingly. If anything should be litigated, it's urban gangster cultural industries, and media outlets that are driving an agenda for profit that gets people killed. Its no different than tobacco companies lying about health risks. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 01:30 pm: |
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perhaps we should just execute all children of deficient parents and be done with it
Sure, why not?
Moron.
Where was the rest of the family? Grandparents, brothers/sisters, teachers, any sort of authority figure? There is simply no excuse for pointing anything at a cop. Ever. And if you do...this happens.
Cause/effect.
Provoke/respond.
Respect...survive.
The Darwin reference by Reep is depressingly accurate. Our legal system has succeeded in removing just about all the chlorine from our gene pool, by removing any sense of personal responsibility or accountability. This situation; Ferguson; the dumass ebola nurse who got on a damn plane and tried to blame the government for "letting her" do it...nobody takes responsibility for their own actions anymore, and it has now filtered down to our children. And children who think "it'll work out" or "there's a reset button like on the xbox" or "I can be a badass like the big boys down the block"...they get dead.
Does it suck? Yes.
Sometimes life does that. Not everyone gets a trophy.
And if that kid hadn't been waving a gun around a park in the first place, nobody would have had to call the cops. The cops wouldn't have had to pull up at all, regardless of distance. There would have been no tension to start with, because the child would have been PROPERLY EDUCATED not to do dumb shit like that.
THAT is where the blame lies - by not educating children that this sort of behavior is not tolerated. And being a kid does not make you bulletproof, or immortal.
Action/reaction. |
Badlionsfan
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 02:04 pm: |
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There are more kids with real guns in that area than kids with toy guns. This wasn't a park in Mayberry. This rec center has a history of gang activity. There's an RTA station across the street. How would opening up a potential 50 foot shoot out be "protecting and serving" the people in the area?
To criticize how the situation was handled with out knowing the scene is a little short sighted. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 03:07 pm: |
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To criticize how the situation was handled with out knowing the scene is a little short sighted.
Exactly what I'm thinking. The video is from a single vantage point and shows little of the surrounding area. There's not nearly enough information there to say what was the best option. Even so, the cop is making his decision on the fly with many considerations involved. It's possible that it could have been done better. Very likely with the same outcome though. Pull a gun on almost any cop anywhere and you can pretty much expect that same outcome. And yes, they were protecting the community by responding to a call about someone pointing a gun at people. "Normal" people will run the other way. |
Greatlaker
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 05:48 pm: |
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Hey Ratbuell.
"Being a kid does not make you bulletproof, or immortal."
All kids think their bulletproof and immortal. It's a part of human and child nature. You obviously don't have any kids of your own. If you did, you would know that one of the last things kids have on their mind is their own demise. That's why kids (no matter how often you tell them) will run into a street without looking, etc, etc.. There is a reason that children aren't held accountable for their actions. They are children.
If we were having this conversation face to face, I doubt very likely that you would call me moron. You should adjust your behaviour. It's easy to cast insults via the internet. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 05:57 pm: |
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It's easy to cast insults via the internet.
Threats too as I recall. Weren't you supposed to be banned? |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2014 - 07:58 pm: |
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All kids think their bulletproof and immortal. It's a part of human and child nature.
This is where the adults come into play...and EDUCATION. If you TEACH the children to be smart...we may actually end up with a generation of SMART ADULTS.
For a change.
If we were having this conversation face to face, I doubt very likely that you would call me moron
Believe what you want. I call a spade a spade. Taking what I said about parenting, and parental responsibility, and twisting it into "we should execute all the children of challenged parents"? Tells me that you aren't someone I need to waste time and energy on. And I've probably raised more kids than you've MET in your life, both as a camp counselor and as a college professor. I'd offer to send you some of the letters I got from parents along the lines of "we cannot believe the change in Michael/Timmy/Steven/David/etc after he spent the summer with you, it's amazing, thank you so much!"...but you'd probably say we should kill those kids too.
It takes a village to raise a child. |
Greatlaker
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2014 - 12:04 am: |
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Once again Ratbuell, your logic falls short.
As a "college professor" I would expect you should be able to clarify your statements here.
On one hand you are telling me that Timor Rice was killed because, "It's the PARENTS FAULT. End of discussion." In which case you seem to be alluding to the negligence of Timor's parents for not keeping him safe or at least educating him in the proper handling of an Airsoft pistol when being approached by officers of the law.
When a kid, such as Timor Rice, has parents that are abusive, in and out of jail and involved in drug use and trafficking, then what? Does that kid have less of a right to live than the child whose parents sat him down and brought him up right? Should all children with toy guns be expected to forfeit their right to life at the hands of a cop if they don't comply with a certain "hands in the air" within seconds of seeing a cop? If a child under whatever circumstances is brought up neglected and stupid, does that kid have less of a right to live in America? Is it just the smart and educated who come from cohesive families that are allowed to survive in your world? Is "social darwinism" in this present day that pragmatic? You talk about a "village to raise a child". What if the kid doesn't have a "village" or nurturing parents or even friends to play with? Maybe the kid, in a bout of boredom or imagination or quite possibly psychosis pulls an Airsoft gun out in public in a bad neighbourhood. Does that kid deserve to die because "its the parents fault. End of discussion", as you Ratbuell, ascertain?
My assertion in all of this mess is quite simple. The police are to blame for the death of Timor Rice. Not the kid, because he is a kid. Not the parents, although quite possibly by abuse or neglect they are culpable. The dispatcher and the two cops should take responsibility for the killing of Timor Rice. The dispatcher for not communicating that the gun might quite possibly be a toy which the original caller communicated when the call was made. The cops are responsible for mishandling the situation that resulted in the death of a twelve year old in the first place. Timor Rice might have made some mistakes on the day that he died, but it was certainly nothing he should have been killed for or that anyone can justifiably say he should have been killed for. The ultimate f*ck up rests on the shoulders of those two cops. Vindication, if there is any, will come in charges laid against the two officers.
When you get a chance Ratbuell please PM me via email some of those complimentary letters from parents of children you raised while you were a camp counsellor. Better yet, perhaps you could post those letters on a separate thread on the board. I would quite like to read those letters. Also, If you don't mind, could you please inform me what school you teach at and what department you teach. I am curious to look up your curriculum online. Thanks. |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2014 - 09:04 am: |
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I agree with a few above. There is a serious lack of personal responsibility and accountability in America these days, perpetuated by everyone from bloggers, to popular media, to the chief of staff himself.
Let's blame x object or x figure and demonize it/them. This does nothing to educate and only promotes hate and fear.
Hate, fear, and ignorance, the recipe for our new culture.
There's been stories of kids killed brandishing toy guns since I was a kid. I was a youngster when squirt guns become fully multicolored instead of just an orange tip. Now you can't find a squirt gun that even resembles a real gun. Back then the toy manufacturers were blamed as the child killers and murderers. Lately the blame is laid on police.
It's no surprise that the folks that don't believe we should have the power to protect ourselves also want folks to believe that the police shouldn't, either. Billy clubs then? After some harsh lumps or broken bones should they be padded? The whole premise is stupid.
It isn't about that. The moral if the story is...if any...(especially for all the exploitive cases coming out in the last few years) is quite obvious...in a culture being raised to fear inanimate objects and view people as a byproduct of their environment, don't waive scary things around in public.
Thankfully plenty of folks smell it in the air and know the agenda. It's been getting pushed hard for decades now. While some absorb it like a liberal osmosis disease the rest of us know better. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2014 - 10:18 am: |
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Greatlaker, please stop the personal attacks.
There is a difference in saying the kid deserved to die, and in saying that the kid was stupid and died as a result. That's a big difference, and a pretty simple one.
I lost two good friends in grade school (brothers). They made a stupid decision, which they did not deserve to die for, but they died nonetheless. I don't blame the lake they drowned in, I acknowledge that stupid decisions can be dangerous and sometimes catastrophic.
Lots of coulda / shoulda / woulda approaches in hindsight. And they are worth thinking through. But if blame is to be assigned here, I would assign it as follows:
0% to 1% : The witness, the dispatcher, and the cops that didn't manage to be an absolute wizard and rock star at their job and somehow manage to prevent an incredibly dangerous situation from going wrong.
29%: Whoever had knowledge that the kid had modified they toy to be indistinguishable from a real gun
70%: Whoever decided to point the fake gun at random people in a public park.
The kid is the only one in both categories. The parents may be in the first category, but probably not.
It is worth thinking through ways to try and make stupid less dangerous, for all the same reasons my power tools generally have blade guards.
(Message edited by reepicheep on December 01, 2014) |
Sifo
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2014 - 12:04 pm: |
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So if there should be zero responsibility for not teaching your kid how to play safely with a toy gun, then it should follow that there should also be zero responsibility if you never teach your kid not to steal. So when that kid steals from a store, nothing can be done, right? If the police can't deal with one point of ignorance then should that not apply to other points of ignorance? Seriously, think it through. Then go away like you were asked. |
Tod662
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2014 - 07:39 pm: |
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the stances taken by some on different subjects and circumstances are too funny
(Message edited by tod662 on December 01, 2014) |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2014 - 07:53 pm: |
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Teaching a child that the rules don't apply to them (for ANY reason - being 12, having deficient parents, wearing too much purple clothing, having green eyes...or because of the color of their skin), results in an ADULT who assumes the rules still won't apply to them. They never did when they were a kid...why should that change now?
Adults who assume the rules don't apply...raise children who are taught the rules don't apply. Correction - that implies active participation by the parent. Those parents raise children who ASSUME the rules don't apply...because they don't apply to their parents.
I believe that would be called a "trend"...and it's part of the problem today. EVERYBODY has an excuse. NOBODY is held accountable for their actions. Especially when it's inconvenient, or if it makes for sensational press opportunities.
And to clarify my statements above - a "parent" does not have to be genetic. "It takes a village" means it is the responsibility of EVERYONE in that village - in that microcosm (school, home, playground, ball games, grocery stores, you name it), it is the unofficial "job" of EVERY person to be "parent". Don't go smacking someone else's kid when they act up in the cereal aisle, but if the parents are oblivious and texting while Satan, Jr. is terrorizing the store...SHAME THE PARENT INTO ACTION. Make them pay attention. Don't cause a scene - it can be done, I do it all the time (depressingly often, it seems) - but make the point. Politely, clearly, and firmly. Be a better person, and make the parent see that. Don't go after the kid - they are, as you said, a kid. Go after the PARENT. Eventually, if enough people make the point enough times...they will learn. And if they don't learn...well...kids can surprise you.
I know a LOT of kids who behave, just to upstage mom and dad. Kids, if you give them the chance, are actually quite smart.
Smarter than most adults.
But...they gotta know HOW to be smart. And, they need to be ENCOURAGED to be smart.
The parents need to be louder to the kids, than the gangbangers and anarchists. THEN, just maybe, we'll start to see some change.
"Parent" does not require genetics. Nor does "education".
Kids learn from adults. What do YOU choose to teach them? Just because you aren't paying attention to your words and actions...doesn't mean they aren't.
(Message edited by ratbuell on December 01, 2014) |
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