| Author | Message | ||
     D_adams |
I liked this RRA LAR-15 enough that I built another one for the wife.  I built hers with a RRA lower, PSA upper and the obviously pink Magpul accesories. Both are dialed in at 300 yards, although mine has the Aimpoint for quicker aquisition.  | ||
| Rick_a |
5.56/223 is used out to 1000 yards in target use with specialized riles and ammunition. 500 yards is a standard qualification stage for iron sighted rifles in the USMC. Most modern guns are more than capable. The shooter is most definitely the limitation in most cases. My AR rifle shoots well enough it out shot my .308 Remington 700 VS with ballistic tip ammo using surplus ball. That 700 got sold. I really like .223 as a target round. It is relatively inexpensive, there's a wide variety of ammunition available, it's pleasant to shoot, and works perfectly well for my purposes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
What kind of group does a US Marine have to hold at 500 yards with iron sights to qualify? 5 rounds in 18" circle? | ||
| Kenm123t |
At the 300 yrd line you better clean the target with a High X count to be competitive any good rifle should be 1 minute of angle at 300 yrds @ 600 yrds a expert or mast er class shooter should be ing the 194 point range with a high X count Reep he better be able to cover the group with palm of his hand I m not a ballistic tip bullet guy they seem to increase group size over a Sierra BTHP or a VLD by Swampy Berger or Lapua | ||
| Blake |
Where do you find an M16 that will shoot 1MOA? | ||
| Rick_a |
These are the targets:  The stage is ten shots within "minute of man." Most of the rifles shoot 2-4 MOA with issue ammo. All the ones I was issued but one did closer to 2 MOA. The last one I qual'd with was a real junker. I never got high shooter honors myself, but was always up there with the best of 'em. 500 yards was all about reading the wind and a tight sling. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool! | ||
| Kenm123t |
The ones I build do Blake. The quality of todays Ar parts is that good. Its more about ammo and care in assembly today I won a medal for a 200 clean 17 x count in 90 with an Ar I built on my kitchen table. Back then we only had 52 gr Sierra BTHP bullets great bench rest rounds but 300yrds and out 600 yrds was tough on a windy day. The Ar came into its own with 69 Sierra BTHP and then the Aussies started 77 gr VLDs New barrels in 8.25 to 1 twist to match the longer bullets. M1A s and match M14s lead to the present targets from the old 5 v s of Garand and 03 Springfields the Ar 15 will lead to another target change in the next few years Ar platform rifles are easier to keep running and more accurate than the Garands or M1As The older rifles require to much Machine shop and hand fitting to keep them in match condition. | ||
| Rick_a |
Blake said M16 not AR. It's easy to buy or build a one MOA AR. Finding a one MOA issue M4 or M16 would be a rare thing, and nearly impossible given the standard issue ammo. They also tend to have a decade or two of rough handling and harsh cleaning procedures. There's the SAM-R and SDM-R and others but those are quite specialized. My own is unusually accurate for a standard barrel. This is a rapid fire 30 round group @100 yards with a 4x optic.  What makes it incredible is that Bosnian surplus SS109 ammunition was used. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Is Washington state the only place where .22lr is next to impossible to come by these days? Wal*Mart sold 1,700 boxes of 100 rounds of 22 last Saturday morning in three hours! 8:00 A.M. to 11:00 A.M. No advertisement, no nothing....just rolled out a hand truck stacked up with them and let them go. Cell phones must have been pretty busy because their was a limit on how many boxes you could buy. Gal said they get 22's in every week...but don't set them all out. Told me if I want some....to always ask if they have some set back. Since December of 2008,(thanks obama and disciples~!)I have only seen 1(one) box of 22 LR on the shelf and that was about a month ago. | ||
| Torquehd |
This is a rapid fire 30 round group @100 yards with a 4x optic. define "rapid fire"... I'm in a fairly skilled division of combat arms... and no one I know can "rapid fire" that tight of a group, at that type of a distance. You and I must have different ideas about "rapid fire". 5.56/223 is used out to 1000 yards in target use with specialized riles and ammunition. ... using mortar sights for lobbing those rounds? I don't know of any 5.56 rifles that I'd rely on past 500, on a good day with the stars aligned. If you're planning on shooting over 300, I'd recommend a REM 700, and if you're looking closer to the 1,000 meter range, I'd recommend a WinMag 300. IF you're a trained sniper. I haven't been to sniper school yet, and I wouldn't dare claim I can shoot half as well as the guys who have had professional instruction, and lots of practice. I'm not saying you can't do it with 5.56... but it sure as sh!t ain't practical for any normal human. You can also fell an acre of timber with a pocket knife. But there's a reason it's not the preferred method. | ||
| Alfau |
The land of the free sounds dangerous. | ||
| Gregtonn |
5.56/223 is used out to 1000 yards in target use with specialized riles and ammunition. By who and for what? On a normal breeze day an expert might be able to consistently hit a sheet of 4'x4' plywood at that range with "specialized" 5.56 rounds. G | ||
| Aesquire |
Many commercial AR's can shoot one MOA with good ammo. My (now gone to a buddy's Marine son ) Bushmaster varminter shot 1" groups @ 100 yds all day long. I unfortunately did not. 55 grain white box was fine. 62 grain OTM Black Hills "reloads" w/mixed brass did better @ 200 yds, so that's what I zeroed with. At a thousand yards I say "what target?" You need to point out which blur it is. That's me. Someone good can do better. @ 1000 yds that's long range. I could brag but why lie? Lots of folk are better shots. Fewer.....far fewer can hit at real long range. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Alfau, mainly its only if you are a pop can, a paper target. (Or, when I have a 10/22 with a red dot site, a saltine cracker on a hillside.  ) It's fun to shoot stuff. I have no desire to shoot people. If I had to defend my family or my country, I might use one as a weapon on another human being, but I would hate it and avoid it at all costs. I'm not sure if I would use one just to defend myself. I'm prepared to, but I don't know what I would do or what the circumstance would be. It wouldn't be easy for me to take a life, even if doing so was "just". (Message edited by reepicheep on October 11, 2014) | ||
| Rick_a |
Snipers aren't picked by the best rifle qual scores. Observation, not shooting, is the primary task. The most motivated, not the best shooters, make it. Marksmanship isn't defined by who's been to the best school, though there's no doubt their training is some of the best. Rapid as defined in a course of qualification fire, not a "mag dump." That was 100 yards off a concrete bench using a bipod. No wizardry required.
Look up Palma rifles. Like I said, specialized rifles and ammunition.  My point was that 223 makes a great, versatile, easy to shoot target round. Most of my practice is with .177/4.5mm airguns. Though I didn't much care for it, I was also quite handy with a machine gun.  Mostly the "heavy guns," unlike the one pictured. But seriously, you don't need credentials to put holes in paper. You should see me with a snub nosed revolver...  | ||
| Court |
When I qualified Expert in the USMC (300 for 300 on San Onofre Range) the "rapid fire" (working from memory here) was 10 rounds in 30 seconds. With a rifle . . . at that time . . . I would have been your worst energy. With a snub nose . . . well, I'd have been better off to pistol whip you. Aflau: speaking as one who has been shot (I still have 98 #4 pieces in me) I can assure you that there is a huge chasm between enjoying shooting (when I lived in Kansas I had LOTS of guns and took my sons out all the time . . paper targets and the week's accumulation of pop cans) . . that's fun stuff. But . . being shot or shooting someone (my brother in law just shot a guy in the chest and killed him (justifiably) with a single shot) is a life changing event. I am still significantly impacted by the events of June 14, 1970. But . . . I'd jump at the chance to sit with a brick of .22 rounds and plink. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Shooting another human is an absolute last resort - literally, kill or be killed. Shooting paper / bottles / cans / old TV sets...that's practice. Focus. Relaxation. Building a skill set - hopefully never directly needed, but a skill set that can and does transfer into other areas of life. Focus...is always good. Look at how focused you have to be when riding a motorcycle. Mental training is ALWAYS a good thing, regardless of what you are focusing ON. | ||
| Blake |
The local shooting range here in little ol' Kilgore, Texas has two pistol ranges, three rifle ranges, four mixed ranges, an archery range, three trap ranges, and a five-stand range. On the weekends they offer various competitive shooting trials. It's been in operation for over fifty years. Only accidents have been due to overzealous reloaders blowing up their own firearms. There are a few holes in the roof of each shooting line. Longest range is 300 yds. Shreveport has 1,000 yd range, but I've not been there. I sure do miss my 20/10 eyesight. Mere 20/20 and needing reading glasses makes the iron sights a bit of a squinting guessing game. I can still hit the paper plate at 200 yds from the bench. It's a very mind-focusing activity. Pure mechanical engineering with a bit of chemistry for the energy source. Too much fun. (Message edited by Blake on October 11, 2014) | ||
| Kenm123t |
The 5.56 round with 77gr vlds in a match Ar some would call them space guns are very accurate at 1000yrds 52 62 grs what most shoot in the Ar makes it about a 300yrd rifle. 1000yrd shooting is not rapid fire 77grs in some loadings will not fit the magazine well of an AR. And No we do not use mortar sights A2 sights while not as good as A Warner will get you in the black at a 1000yrds 300win mag is nice but a better choice is one of the 6.5mm rounds I prefer the 280 Ackley Improved for a 1000yrds good round long barrel life and many great 7mm vlds to choose from. I also have a Garand timed for 190 gr sierras I usually score in the 188 -192 range and 15 or so X count at a 1000yrds Rifles all the rifles I shoot in competition are match grade the only original component most of the time is the receiver. The services build 700 Remington into sniper rifles from receivers Having a rifle that shoots well at 1000yrds vs 600yrds and less is huge. Well actually small things matter more as errors increase with distance. I hit a plateau shooting around 190 at the 600yrd line after some coaching We found my problem was vision With my shooting glasses all 4 pair one for each position wasn't the correction it was the lack a consistent optical center of the lens due to recoil fit of the glasses that day etc. After Lasik I went up to shooting average 194-196 now its on to the next problem. Improving your shooting is like peeling an onion you just uncover the next problem. Like reading the wind a great shooter is one that can read and adjust changing conditions you can be a great marksmen and an average marksman that can read the wind will beat you every day of the week. Blake is right shooting is 90% mental and 10% hardware. But remember you can lose a match 2 weeks early on the reloading bench! Attention to detail and rigorous self examination along with good coaching is the key to precision shooting | ||
| Rick_a |
This was how mine started out.  It was over scoped but I didn't need a spotting scope with that one It's lost a few pounds and some barrel length but doesn't shoot any different.  It wears a 1-4x scope I had custom made for it more often than not.  20141010_153355_LLS_1 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr  With a fixed stock, no bayo lug, non threaded muzzle and a five round mag as it came, it's just a benign rifle and not a killer person gun | ||
| Aesquire |
teasing the OP with rifles he can't buy because he's in a slave state whose rulers are violating the U.S. Constitution, ( like my current home in The Imperium ) is not fair. He needs choices that have NOT YET BEEN Forbidden him by the evil Overlords. Sure, they probably will be next year, so he needs to hit this window of opportunity. used guns are fun. Surplus vintage rifles like the Springfield & Mauser & Schmidt-Rubin & Mosin–Nagant are a hoot to shoot, and have great historical meaning. http://www.swissrifles.com/ heck, I love the boom and smoke cloud of the black powder era too. All are fun, and challenging to different degrees. My advice, however, is go to the local gun shops, find a nice used .22, and go for accuracy. A nice target model is out there, have fun finding it, and talk to the gun shop people... they usually have a clue. For centerfire, the new triggers and manufacturing technology makes a NEW rifle actually a very good bargain. The Ruger American just got a glowing review in "Guns & Ammo", and the Savage series has been outstanding. Both companies offer pre mounted scope packages, and the price performance ratio is out-freaking-standing. You can go a bit nuts over at Savage and get a full on sniper rifle package that costs way more, but the basic models really shoot just as good. It's the trigger, stupid. After decades of lawyer designed trigger pulls ( heavy, gritty, and designed not to fire unless forced to ) we now have, thanks to the engineers at Savage, good triggers again. The other companies have followed suit. I'm not knocking the other manufacturers, but Winchester is now FN, and Remington is in the process of moving and getting their Quality problems under control. Neither offers as good a bang for the buck as the Ruger or Savage offerings, IM not so HO. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.savagearms.com/ http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRedfiel d/models.html How can you beat that price/performance? Damn. Ready for a suppressor. http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/m odels.html The Ruger American series uses built in bedding clocks and a free floated barrel. These are features once found only on a custom rifle you'd spend a LOT on. And for under $500? Outstanding. And for the "one gun man" http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/mo dels.html as to the Why? on a Scout... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle | ||
| Ratbuell |
Savage Axis 22", or Remington 26" 700sps? Looking in 308, bolt action,lefty. Is the remington 2x as nice? Cause its 2x the money...I'm seeing good things about the savage...thoughts? | ||
| Rick_a |
Savage is just as capable as the Remington. The Remington will have a jeweled bolt, a nicer stock, adjustable trigger, and a nicer finish. I would look into the Savage Trophy. As good as the Remington and $200 less with a factory mounted/bore sighted Nikon scope. I'd like to do a Vietnam era M40 Sniper rifle replica someday myself.  | ||
| Blake |
Nice. Do you think they hone the rings? One thing that's puzzled me is the use of aluminum tubes for long range optics. Aluminum expands and contracts with temperature at twice the rate of steel. I think ok' Mr. Weaver had it right. | ||
| Rick_a |
That's doubtful. I think as long as the tubes are inform in material and thickness heat expansion is not a problem. | ||
| Ratbuell |
So...suggestions for a scope? General duty, left-handed bolt (if it matters), looking for durable and accurate but don't need Olympic-quality (or $). | ||
| Aesquire |
Redfield has been resurrected by Leupold. Good price performance value. Personal preference for Reticle and features like target dials are up to your wants. I like caps over my adjustment dials, I don't want them to get knocked or moved. Nice designs features include dials that let you zero, then set the settings to zero by lifting the dial and turning it. Other people like being able to easily dial in range and windage. If I had a dedicated target rifle, and wasn't going to carry it around for varmint hunting, I'd go with target dials, If I'm going through the woods, no. Mil-dot, and other fancier reticles are highly personal choices... I also find good bargains in used scopes, caveat emptor. The best suggestion I can give is to LOOK through the scope. How small is the area you need to put your eye to see full field? Things get fringe-y and get weird rainbows at the edges? is the display case across the store curved? What's the eye relief? ( if you need to be one and half inches behind the scope, and you put it on a ,45-70..... you'll be bleeding. ) pick clear bright scopes. You can do whole books on the subject. Now, if you feel insanely generous, I want one of these. http://www.burrisoptics.com/eliminatorIII.html | ||
| Rick_a |
The lower to mid level Leupold, Redfield, Nikon, Burris, Weaver, Vortex and Bushnell all make decent and affordable stuff. The low level American made scopes are fine, most Philippine made scopes are decent, but I'd personally avoid anything made in China. About $175 to $300 gets a decent scope. Up the budget to $500 and that can get a better one. It's mostly a matter of application and preferences. A 3-9x is a good general use magnification range and there's a lot of affordable options. 4-12x is the next step up and a slightly larger objective may be needed for low light use. I've used up to an 8-40x with a 56mm objective but that was just silly. I like using the minimum magnification necessary these days. |
