| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
I see the Model 57 is back. Never had a .41 Magnum, but always liked the numbers... Classic styling. I also like the ,45 ACP revolvers, but an N frame is a bit much to hide in summer clothing. The Performance Center stuff like the Thunder Ranch models and the Jerry Miculek models may not be classic beauties, but meet the "works great is beautiful" standard. The Model 627 meets both standards of pretty, with an 8 shot .357 cylinder, no doubt set up for moon clips. Still.... pretty big for carry in a "better be concealed" state. What I really am impressed with is the new L frame Model 69 Combat Magnum in .44 magnum/44. special. Classic lines, stainless steel, the perfect deer gun for my area, and with .44 special loads, mellow practice and nigh perfect self defense power. Overkill? Perhaps, but to Quote the Maxim. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlock_Mercenary#The _Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries | ||
| Rick_a |
If you want classic finishes, S&W has the "Classics" line. They are not pinned barrels or recessed cylinders, they have internal locks and metal injection molded trigger parts...however, the surface finish is the equal of the guns of old (though bluing not as deep due to modern EPA regs), and the critical working tolerances are better than ever with less tool marks and wavy surfaces. I carry a 4" N frame a few days a week under a short sleeve button up shirt. It's not that it can't be done, it's that most people are unwilling to carry such a gun. Classics Revolvers | ||
| Reepicheep |
The SIG P220 is a really nice modern .45. The side clip for the P3AT and magazine extension are nice farkles, but at the end of the day I'm not sure they were really an improvement. More flexibility, but then more "stuff" and size also. The Desantis holster is a nicely made bit of kit for the price, and if you draw by pulling backwards out of your pocket it "ejects" the pistol nicely. It isn't broken in yet, but it's a bit bulky relative to the naked gun (made worse by the clip). Once it breaks in to the shape of my leg, it might feel less bulky. | ||
| Aesquire |
If you use a holster remove the clip. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blatant Thread hijack! Thank Blake, who turned me on to this fellow in the 2nd Amendment thread. Thanks Blake. | ||
| Blake |
His early youtube and NRA vids are what hooked me. .45 Super Just the concussion from the muzzle blast is enough to stop the bad guy. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Update: just last night I caught a Guns & Ammo TV episode where they introduced the "new" S&W model 66 in .44 Magnum/5 shot. Now if the military really wants "knock down power", a misnomer for sure, how about sure stopper or incapacitator; is that a word?, maybe they should consider going back to what the flyers and other personnel carried with a revolver. Still a little too big for concealed carry and it appeared to be a little bit of too much recoil but my wife has shot my old Ruger Redhawk without too much problem. What a nice bear/self defense gun and not 5 lbs. After the policy change dumping the 9mm's & .38 specials with the Florida shootout I guess the FBI agents were wimps when they gave up on the 10mm (too much recoil was the word)?, and had S&W produce the .40 S&W. The 10mm Model 1006 was one of the best pistols & rounds for any type of self defense work IMHO. There are a few pistols and revolvers still being produced for duty work in 10mm so maybe just stick with the old 1911 with 10 mm and for CC option a nice Glock model 29 sub compact. And if you are a wimp you could always change the recoil springs out and download to .40 S&W velocities. Pray for peace but stay vigil. Bob   (Message edited by Bob_thompson on July 22, 2014) | ||
| Kenm123t |
HEHE try the 308 conversion I have on my Springfield 1911 It's a BLAST  | ||
| Rick_a |
Sure Bob, they could just go back to 1917's  The 10mm was not "too strong" for the FBI. That is the internet lore. They spec'd their own round. Norma up loaded it. The .40 was the same performance in a 9mm sized grip frame. The 10mm makes a fine pistol round for outdoor use in its purest form. The guns are just too big to be practical for much else. The Glock 29 is not bad, but is a wide, blocky gun. In a fmj with plenty enough penetration I don't see how a different caliber would help much.   The Beretta M9 is not my favorite pistol, but they work just fine. My guess is the Army is drumming up some excitement to do testing and spend tax payer money like they always have, just to stick with or upgrade the same old stuff. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The thing about the M9 is it can carry 18 rounds. I love to shoot a 1911, but if the stuff was really hitting the fan, I'd grab an M9 with an 18 round magazine first. | ||
| Aesquire |
Actually the 10mm did kick too hard, AND over penetrated, so they had loaded up a wimpier version. Which S&W re did as the .40S&W, by making the cartridge shorter to fit in 9mm sized frames. Less space for powder, less velocity, less kick. Smaller in dia. than a .45, bigger than a 9mm. So the blocky-ness of a Glock, is the Glock. Not the round. The 10mm is about .45 ACP in length, and longer than the 9mm. The frame/grip length front to back, is the difference, which does affect the hand size that can be comfortable. So you've got .45/10mm frames, 9mm/.40 frames, and .380/.32 ACP frames... then .25 which is not an awesome stopper. The PROBLEM with 9mm ball is penetration. Goes through people and walls. ( not people Or walls, it does both at one shot ) Energy not dumped on target is wasted. The .45 also over penetrates, but not nearly as much. Ball ammo is not ideal for the job at hand, you only use it when you have to or for practice. Of Course, a .40 fan would point out how wimpy your 9mm is. The 10mm is a great round. It takes a .45 sized frame and better than .45 toughness, and kicks like a .41 magnum. None of that bothers me. Finding ammo at Walmart, now....... (Message edited by aesquire on July 23, 2014) | ||
| Blake |
.308 in a 1911 pistol!?! Woohoo! The fireball will probably knock 'em out. Kinda like a .40 Super? Or are you talking full blown rifle cartridge? Can't see how that ever fit into a 1911 pistol. | ||
| Kenm123t |
its a single shot conversion you remove the slide and a slip on the new upper the tilt barrel release is built in a special magazine 14 5/8 " barrel. Its fun with the Aimpoint on it I use it mostly for shooting M1A development loads that didn't work out in the M1A s With M852 its point blank range is 225 yrds 2400 fps with 168 Sierra 2200 hollow points are about all you really want to shoot | ||
| Ezblast |
Ruger .38 LCP - a sweet piece. EZ | ||
| Rick_a |
Technically, that is incorrect. The FBI's original specs were duplicated in the .40S&W. The 10mm was up loaded by ammunition manufacturers for commercial use. People still say 40 kicks too hard for the average person...but I like it. Behold the facts: FBI 10mm Notes Their original load, as spec'd by them, was a 180gr subsonic, which is what I prefer in my .40, mostly because I like how it shoots. I don't like lightweight rounds that rely on speed for expansion. They don't shoot as nice, either. The 40 obsoleted the 10mm due to a more manageable frame and firearm size, not recoil, technically. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Quote: "Ruger .38 LCP - a sweet piece." Get'm while you can. G | ||
| Aesquire |
The fibs specced a wimpy version of the pre existing hunting defense round ( proposed years before by Cooper and Keith among others ) then S&W made the .40 to FBI specs..... You really expect the FBI to admit to less than full manhood? No chance. I can admit something kicks and bothers me.....they have too much institutional baggage. They blamed it on the girrrrrlllls. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
When small, some very small framed, ladies can shoot .45 ACP, .40S&W, .357 magnums and even .44 magnums without wining about it but recognizing the recoil and become proficient at it, then I must still contend at least some FBI agents ARE WIMPS! | ||
| Aesquire |
Thanks Rick, that's a great find. "1. Commercial offerings too high pressure, too high velocity." The FBI tried the Commercial loadings for a short time, and the steely eyed two fisted 6'2" agents cried. ( ok, they bitched ) The grip size issue is the same with a .45 as the 10mm, and was not considered an issue, see page 7. It IS an issue with some people. If only as a comfort matter. I agree with Bob that recoil is relative and except for injury or Arthritis, etc., small folk can handle a 10mm fine. I've shot 12 ga. pistol gripped shotguns one handed, don't want to anymore, and someday will probably only be able to do it once. ( then I'm broken ) The 10mm FBI load evolved into the .40 S&W, a triumph in marketing, and actually offering a "better" product for the customer. Col. Jeff Cooper, who was one of the forces behind the 10mm said they wanted a cartridge with the hitting power of the .45, that worked at over 100 yards, with flatter trajectory, and the same power at 100 yards that the .45 had at 7. They got it. It's a cult round, and for a good reason, it let's you hunt deer with a 1911 sized or other pistol past normal handgun ranges, and still is good at defensive use. With the right ammo I'd not feel under gunned against bear or Buick. The trouble, Cooper much later said, is that fewer people really wanted a 100 plus yard pistol than they thought. It's the Perfect gun for some, and it's a cult classic still used and produced today. Again, thanks, Great FBI notes. This is the '80's reports, some things they have changed their minds on, since. They do say in that report that over penetration is mostly mythical, but they DO consider it as a spec in the NEW Ammo standards. I suspect the comment was shading the truth a bit to Congress. Gotta get those special appropriations. And at the time, they really did feel the need to upgrade after the Miami shoot out and some other cases. The comment about how many misses, 70-80% is telling, as well as the language used. pg. 7. Also, the best rounds of the 1980's is listed on page 11. There is better stuff available now, but these are all good choices. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
A 100 yard pistol is also called a carbine. Why would anyone want a long range self defense pistol? I could understand if you were hunting boars or plinking cans for the hell of it but I can't imagine any self-defense situation where 100 yard shootouts would be helpful. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Duh. If you have the likelihood of having to engage a target at that distance, get a carbine for goodness sakes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
LOL. Nate and I cross posted. And for the record, Nate is brilliant.  | ||
| Aesquire |
So, BOTH of you are too wimpy to hunt deer at 100 yards with a pistol? HAH!  | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I hunt deer with a hammer like a real man should. Of course, I haven't been successful either. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I hunt dear with a neighbor. He gets up at 3 am, he freezes his ass off up in a tree, he shoots the deer (with a .50 S&W pistol as a matter of fact), he guts it, he drags it over to the woodpile. I walk out, about 10 am, point at it, and say "nice deer Ed". Then I help him butcher it, and eat his chili and drink his beer. So my preferred caliber is "Ed". (If I did want to hunt, it would be with a bolt action 12 gauge shooting slugs... just cause it's cool) | ||
| Bob_thompson |
From Aesquire's post: "They do say in that report that over penetration is mostly mythical, but they DO consider it as a spec in the NEW Ammo standards." Also: "There is better stuff available now, but these are all good choices." That,(over penetration), I believe can be very true with mil-spec ball ammo but with all the newer expanding HP bullets they have been able to expand considerably, hold together and penetrate very well. Mil-spec ammo, weather rifle or pistol I believe still has to meet standards set by the Geneva and other conventions dating earlier. I.E. no hollow points to maim more. Ironic, you can kill an enemy soldier but you cannot maim him or cause undue injury. WTF? Now I do not know what ammo LEO's are able to carry and if the same lame reasoning exists with them. But for me my main focus in self defense and an imminent threat to my life would be to stop that threat as quickly as possible so I use the best rounds to accomplish just that. Kenm123+: "HEHE try the 308 conversion I have on my Springfield 1911 It's a BLAST" I love plinking with pistols or revolvers at longer ranges even out to 200+ yards just to see what can be done with a little 'Kentucky elevation and windage. Sure is fun to try and hit a man size target. But for serious accurate work past 100 I will always pick a long gun. Now you handgun hunters don't get your dander up. I hunted deer for many years with a Super 16 TC Contender in .35 Remington (a short rifle though and not what I consider a handgun) and 200g. SPBT's out to 200 and it was fairly accurate but required a lot of concentration and holding ability for my then 4 power scope to hit consistently. Recoil was just barely manageable. Doesn't it really come down to exactly just what your need is in firearms. Having fun plinking, serious hunting, self defense and CC all require different choices and today we have many. That in itself makes most firearms and shooting just plain fun...........and our Constitutional right. The same might be said about our choices in what bikes we ride, all can be fun. | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Johnnylunchbox |
Law enforcement generally uses jacketed hollow-points. Military uses FMJ. Injuring an enemy combatant can often be better that killing. It forces the enemy to use more resources in evac'ing and medical care. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
That is very true Steve and why I believe the military for the most part went with high velocity, light bullets and smaller rounds with additional range & accuracy as with the .556 AR's and not the prototype .308 AR Stoner first produced. | ||
| Ourdee |
Why not alternate hollow point and ball in magazines when loading .45 ACP? |
