| Author | Message | ||
     Pwnzor |
Oh, and how is Hobby Lobby ignoring the law? The Supreme Court just told everybody it's NOT the law. So who's ignoring it now? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Rofl Some one thinks he is a Stan Lee dream and lives in Detroit Calls other folks names while never having an understanding of the issue. Now That's really funny  Now we did go to school when it was too muddy to hunt. Now we just have to work when its too rough to run the boats to West End! Love that Marlin Fishing  | ||
| Aesquire |
Kenm...... clarification on the IVF issue? I'm all in favor of charity provided birth control. Private charity. If a company provides it as part of it's benefits program I like that. Making it mandatory is one of the major fails of semi socialized medicine. You naturally get higher prices when aromatherapy and feng shwing are mandatory coverage. I feel it's fine for your religious rules to influence your business model. You have to accept the consequences. If ( going with a recent example ) you don't want to bake a wedding cake for gay customers you have to take the publicity that goes with it. As a society we won't allow that sort if bigotry if it's race related but we are still in the long haul to have a society that gives up medieval sex hang ups. Maybe in another century we'll have enlightenment and responsibility. Paying for abortion hits a moral problem that's obvious. Paying for birth control if other than a entity directly tied to the Catholic church seems a little less clear. If the Obama regime had allowed exclusion of abortion and abortion drugs I think they would have won the Hobby Lobby case. Anti-birth control activists are a small minority. But that wasn't the point for the Obamacare folk. For them it's a matter of control. My way or the highway well describes the intent of Obamacare. They simply refused to give on their agenda......and #1 is "ram it down their throats" and silence the opposition. #2 the moral reasoning was secondary.....except in the need to assert dominance and suppress dissent. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Well if its implantable its Life A Unique human if you prevent its implantation its abortion, That's what the point was. IVF is just a fancy word for transplanting or in some cases replanting in a different season. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Patrick have you considered how much terror along with fears of inadequacy that Fredrica/ Freddy lives in. The way his handlers keep him worked up and screeching I m betting he Over doses before he pops a Stroke or a Heart attack. What's your take? Should we start a pool? Crowdsource funding for a EBR of your Choice top prize then Gift Cards for Badweb sponsor companies. Hey tormenting libprogtards is fun and every one has one guilty pleasure and unlike Silly Putty the fall out won't stain my throw rugs lol | ||
| Reindog |
Tony, Welcome back. Kick your shoes up and stay awhile. --'dog. | ||
| Ducbsa |
This attitude of assuming that male justices only vote to preserve patriarchy instead impartially following the law ties into the standard Prog approach. If it matches our Party Line, it is good; if it conflicts, it is bad. This bogus straw man argument about controlling womens' bodies can be demolished every time by what was said above: buy your own damn birth control and then use it. | ||
| Reindog |
Whining about male Supreme Court justices is perhaps the stupidest argument ever made. This cartoon spells out exactly what happened.  | ||
| Aesquire |
Starting a pool for when someone strokes out is cruel and just not nice. Put me down for 11:45 election day.  Well if its implantable its Life A Unique human if you prevent its implantation its abortion, That's what the point was. IVF is just a fancy word for transplanting or in some cases replanting in a different season. Hmm, I can't say I agree. You need 3 things to have a pregnancy. An egg. A horde of sperm. A place to grow. Only 2 of those things and you don't have a baby. I'm skipping artificial wombs, ( not ready yet ) and parthenogenesis techniques that I don't think have been tried on humans. ( stimulate an egg to divide without a sperm. No more need for men at all. That day will come, right now AFAIK it's fiction ) Eggs and sperm get together and don't implant all the time, it's not murder. Barrier techniques prevent all 3 factors from happening, usually it's keep the sperm and egg apart, but sometimes it's keep it from finding a place to grow. Nature has it's ways, and every method had failures, including willed abstinence. I was unaware of the paradigm you guys are talking about. It seems by that logic that "wasting an egg" or Sperm would also be murder, and I just don't buy that. It was believed last I looked that a women is born with her eggs and eventually runs out. Men produce more sperm throughout life. I could be wrong on that, but I wouldn't accuse a woman of murder if she fails to get pregnant a thousand times, or a man if he fails to repopulate the planet by himself, that's just silly. So a drug like Plan-B that prevents ( if you are lucky, it's far from sure ) pregnancy by preventing egg release can no way be considered abortion. Even if it did prevent implantation, I see no way that it is. Just birth control. An abortificant like ru-486 sure can be. It is. Those drugs have been with us since the days when "Doctor" was a word only used to describe that time traveler that taught us how to make fire. ( Dr. Who... 1st episode ) Sharp rocks were considered WMD's and we were nowhere near the top of the food chain. And they had abortion drugs. Not as reliable, and more unpleasant, but that's progress for you. ( speaking of old school, perhaps FF needs a good trepanning? ) I fully support a woman's right to control over her body, and consider what goes on behind bedroom doors no one else's business, especially uptight tribal elders, politicians, and activists of any stripe. Government interference in your life IMHO, has 3 levels. None of your business. None of your damn business. No wonder you want to take our guns. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Hopefully some babies will survive with all this controversy. I can't believe the lies of the pro-choice folk...I saw Hillary and some woman from the NOW organization blatantly lie on national tv about what this ruling means. I guess it comes natural to some. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/woman- class-action-lawsuit-against-xerox-dies Looks like someone's baby didn't survive Obamacare. More to come. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Technology is making the abortion question even more complicated. First, by making it "safe" for the mother. It just gets harder from here. I work in the "technical policy making" field, and can't help but think of abortion in terms of a governable technical policy. A complete human DNA sequence, instantiated into an organism, becomes "human" and is autonomously entitled to all constitutional rights once the first cell successfully reproduces. Mothers have privacy rights, but those privacy rights don't trump all other rights of the child that is in her uterus. Just like my privacy rights don't give me Cart Blanche to kill someone in my home. Different but similar situations... I have some rights, the visitor has some rights, and both of us loose some rights. That covers current technology, but that policy will "break" soon because it will become increasingly difficult to define "human". If I take one of my cells, copy the DNA, modify the DNA so that the cell will develop into a body but without any brain, is that a human? Can I harvest replacement organs from it? What if I modify the cell to just directly grow a replacement pancreas? There is obviously a line somewhere, but it will be hard to draw. What about if someone were to take a hair I have shed in a public place, and used that DNA to create an exact duplicate of me. Do I have any rights to controlling my unique genetic sequence? It's just like software, it is a program that will do the same thing every time. There are copyright protections on software that let the original author control it's use on their terms. Is my DNA encoding "mine"? Technology might help with the abortion debate as well. If we could create an artificial womb, and practically extract a fertilized egg, then does that make it more practical to make abortion illegal, and instead have publicly or privately contributed funds to make the fetus independent while keeping the mothers privacy and expediently getting the unwanted person out of her body? It sounds horrible, but the most reasonable legal grounds for answering the abortion question to me seem to be trespass laws. If another person causes me to reasonably fear for my life, and I have no other reasonable avenue of escape, I am within my rights to employ deadly force to protect myself. So the "abort to save the life of the mother" question is already answered. The "castle doctrine" laws about trespass undercut this, which is an uncomfortable thing for me philosophically to think about. As a second amendment loving conservative, I should be in full support of the castle doctrine. But personally, I would never employ deadly force if there was a reasonable opportunity to escape. So the unwanted pregnancy thing becomes much like an unwanted house guest or tenant. The laws have already ruled on these things, property owners are within their rights to eject these unwanted tenants, but they have controls over them regarding how they can do it and the time frame involved, and these controls vary based on circumstances. In the whole scope of things, "wait 9 months to evict" isn't at all unreasonable when "eviction" before then would certainly result in a death. | ||
| Court |
>>>>it will become increasingly difficult to define "human" No. "it" won't become . . . "we" will make it more difficult so that folks can play semantical games with life. I look at my Grandkids . . . including all those wonderful high res . . "just inseminated" scans . . . and I find it very difficult to blame "it". At some point in time . . . . like in days gone by . . . folks are going to have to learn to be responsible and accountable. There will be unwanted pregnancies. There are ways we can diminish that number and there are ways to deal with unplanned births the never require us to invoke "it". I'm not one of the chest pounding right to lifers . . . but I am against murder. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Well Said Court! Rein the libtardsprogs are not behaving as human beings. They will regret that once the purge starts open conflict and the left will find less concern for their lives because they haven't acted human in years! The seemingly minor and petty issues that lefties have inflicted on the normal population will reach a boiling point. Having the PTA Prof lounge attitude in dealing with the people will be the final straw, Imagine the Faux Indian Warren Or the Harpy Hillary in charge of anything than a Faculty mixer is the definition of hell on earth. Sort of like having Fredrica next door. Hey Freddy is your Driveway Steep? Have Steep steps ? We can use you for a example of Slinky People! Blake has never seen it lol | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381538/obamac ares-contraception-mandate-ramesh-ponnuru | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/381710/liber als-hobby-lobby-doublethink-jonah-goldberg At the heart of this, and so many other recent controversies, is an honest disagreement about how society should be organized. For liberals (and far too many Republicans), businesses should be de facto, if not de jure, extensions of government. If something is desirable, businesses should be forced to impose it. The fact that the owner disagrees or that it is not in the business’s economic interest is immaterial. And it’s not just businesses. Recall that the Obama administration has tried to force explicitly religious groups to betray their beliefs as well. Obviously, there’s room for nuance here. Few people think that we should scrap minimal workplace-safety rules, for instance. No one thinks the Church of Satan should be permitted ritual human sacrifice. But when in doubt, the government should err on the side of laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui-même. Not everything is your boss’s business, or anybody else’s. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/07/02/berkel ey-plans-to-provide-free-weed-for-low-income-patie nts-marijuana-pot-collectives-dispensaries/ | ||
| S2t_bama |
Patrick, I disagree. A zygote (fertilized egg) is genetically unique from either parent, thus inherently different from either's sperm or ova. As such, it will develop into what we recognize as a human being. It can do so in its mother's womb or another woman's womb. Clearly the dividing line between waste cells derived from either parent, and genetically unique human, has been crossed at the time of fertilization. So, forms of birth control which prevent fertilization are definitely different from those which prevent implantation. I don't presume to recommend legislation based on this, but I can't ignore the facts either. | ||
| Aesquire |
Not to dispute your definition..... but it makes IVF problematic, since typically more than one zygote is produced. If implantation succeeds then the rermaining potential babies are discarded. This technology is a blessing to many but has moral issues I'm honestly not qualified to judge. Overall I see it as a plus but I see the problems too. Zygotes are formed and never find a home to grow all the time in nature. Are we to use technology to find them homes? Even today with host mothers and transplantation there is no practical way to "save" the many potential people that never get a chance to be born. I can't even think of a way short of "Brave New World" totalitarian control of biology to even try. Surely the power over your life this would require is far more dangerous than any good that might do? There is no simple way to determine if an egg was never fertilized or was and failed to implant in normal sexual affairs. I know of no test....no procedure to tell me if an egg was fertilized or not when a woman releases it into the wild.  nor of any practical means of examining every cell that leaves a human body in the course of daily events. I've known women who say they can tell when they ovulate.....and can't argue since my plumbing is different. IMHO your opposition to preventing implantation is based on a misconception of what is possible. Plan-b does not do so therefore you must not oppose it, right? Ru-486 does prevent implantation by triggering a period in some cases. In others the triggered period ends a very new pregnancy. I can understand your opposition to that. Your dividing line between simply a cell and a zygote/potential human seems sound to me. Your assertion that that event is pregnancy does not. The idea that a zygote floating around the universe is to be protected as a living human is laudable but not inclusively realistic. If including us finding a womb for it to grow in is absurd. Not practical possible or moral. IUD's prevent implantation by maintaining the womb in a non receptive state....I fail to see the moral issues Hoot seems to. IUD's are not abortion. If you don't pay for it, it isn't murder, and it's not your responsibility it's none of your business what others do. That's the Supreme Court ruling.... that you should not have to pay for abortion if you have moral objections. This has serious implications for socialized medicine and abortion. Note well that like "conscientious objectors" to war you need more than "I don't wanna" to be taken seriously. This Administrations view is you do have to pay. They accuse you of denying a "right" to women and call you names for denying them the power to tax you for abortion. (Message edited by aesquire on July 03, 2014) | ||
| Kenm123t |
Good explanation Patrick I dare you to give it at a NOW convention! And on the Pool You didn't say Am or Pm As Imperial Ruler of the Contest We will use Zulu + 5 Military Time for the Pool When I develop the Rule for the contest I ll start a new Thread Logical discourse to reinforce Creditable postions will be encouraged. Setting fire to strawman constructs with the light of truth to force a Libtards mental breakdown to happen on you chosen time slot captures the spirit of the contest. Remember a a unspurned Libtard progressive Is YOUR FAULT. Bring the Light of the Truth to his life!  | ||
| S2t_bama |
Regarding excess embryo production in the course of IVF, I too was troubled by that enough that my wife and I ultimately decided not to pursue it. There are "adoption" programs for these snowflake embryos. Before the adoption of the GW Bush policy on embryonic stem cells, these were also a proposed source for ES cells for research. The fact that some zygotes implant and others don't absent "outside" intervention, I consider a straw man. I thought we were talking about contraceptives here. Contrary to the way it was perceived, I did not mean to say that fertilization is pregnancy. It clearly is not. It is, however a bright line, in a sea of gray. There are adequate birth control methods that stay on the "right" side of the line, such as barrier methods (i.e. condom, diaphragm) and prophylactic hormonal treatment (i.e. the pill). I am not a luddite, but I really do think there is a difference between preventing the formation of a genetically unique human life, and denying that life the opportunity nature may (or may not) provide it to develop. Given that perspective may be shared by the folks at Hobby Lobby, I can see why they might not want to be coerced into paying for it. Edited for etiquette's sake. My apologies. (Message edited by S2t_bama on July 03, 2014) | ||
| Aesquire |
Kenm, don't you mean -5? Isn't +5 in the Indian Ocean? Diego Garcia? No... that's +6.... "ZP5 - Chesapeake Bay" ???? Huh? I hit my ignorance level here. In any event EST 11:45 pm. Or if DST... Anyhoo... When the Talking Heads in NYC think it's 11:45. I doubt we'll get the same revelations next time. When Barack Obama was elected President there's a great clip of 2 "libtards" as you put it, punch drunk with fatigue, start talking about how they have no idea what Obama believes, stands for, or reads. I found this amazing since that's their job to freaking know, and tell us, long before election day, and they obviously never even thought to ask. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzMas1bVidw They deserve to be sued for malpractice. re: zygotes & the line you draw.... I'm not up on this stuff as much as I used to be. Haven't had need of other than "normal" birth control methods in a long time.... I do recall, long ago... my "Girl friend" stopped at Planned Parenthood to pick up some free condoms, and got exotic Japanese ones to try. She thought it might be fun. Unfortunately, and hilariously, They were the only ones available one evening, and without bragging, I can only say they were, too small. Thankfully we both had a sense of humor. Is there a method/drug in actual use that prevents implantation? Other than as a side effect of either barrier methods or abortificants? The argument may be over a fine detail that does not have any real application. As i said, I can have my Opinions, and will defend them, but without basing those opinions on facts, they have no rational foundation. Like the "right" to free food, shelter, education, healthcare, and equality of outcome. | ||
| Aesquire |
As an aside, one of the lies used to attack George the Younger was his first veto ( after 5 years in office...I always figured no one told him he could  ) which was to prevent the commercial production of embryos for stem cell research. The rules his administration came up with, as a moral compromise, when they began Federally funded Stem cell research, was to use an existing supply of Embryos already in use... and limit research to them. The rationalization was that the research was a large good, but that we should not create and sell "potential human beings" or, simply unborn babies, to be destroyed in research. Not by any means a perfect solution. It was believed that simply allowing unused zygotes from IVF procedures would be hard to control, to prevent commercial "let's make babies for profit". AKA sold into slavery to die.... I personally thought it was fairly well reasoned policy...... not perfect, but reasonable. Others disagree. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Your finally getting the Church's position STOP PLAYING GOD WITH Children ! As Imperial Ruler of the contest I get to pick the time stamp. Its in the contest rules. Myron is moon lighting from the ACLU and his brothers insurance agency. Hey you get better pricing from a hungry Lawyer. He did go to law school at Columbia. Columbia Missouri We went Big Ag on lawyers you see how the Ivy league such as big O Turn out. Its operated under the rules of Sun Tzu! I figured you would understand. Are you Applying to be a NOW speaker for next year? Patty Ireland will love you long time or at least till security arrives | ||
| Aesquire |
While I'm a 'libber....NOW would have a fit if I spoke at a meeting...... While it's a little late to point out Bill's abuse of women while being supported by NOW, my still timely comments on Hill's abuse of those women would get me ejected. ( probably by armored vehicle mounted commando wannabes ) So I'd better start the short speech with a lecture on female genital mutilation, honor killings, and rape as a means of patriarchal control becoming an epidemic as Islam pushes it's influence in Europe, Africa and America. I might win back the crowd with my support for mandatory abortion funding. Best I not mention that it's free, and mandatory, for progressives who have not yet reproduced..... Imposed Darwinism should appeal until they find themselves the target. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Mandatory that liberals PAY Their own Bills Whiney wussies Hmm if women didn't get knocked up by men whose children they don't find convenient. We wouldn't need to fund abortions! For most women other than the wealthy or gold diggers a woman's fast track to poverty is single motherhood. You will get beat up over that fact buts its reality. Patrick tell the truth your a libber so you can make out with the BSC crazy women of the left. | ||
| Aesquire |
... your a libber so you can make out with the BSC crazy women of the left. I assure you the BSC women in my life are of all political persuasions. "just joking honey....OW! put down the skillet!..." gotta go. | ||
| Cataract2 |
http://tinyurl.com/pferfrn | ||
| Sifo |
Whining about male Supreme Court justices is perhaps the stupidest argument ever made. What was the make up of the Supreme Court when Roe v. Wade was decided? Rhetorical of course. | ||
| Sifo |
This is the failure that keeps on failing. Obamacare Misses Its Target on the Uninsured by Half |
