| Author | Message | ||
     Reindog |
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| Reindog |
From The Guardian Cover-up: Ukraine rebels destroying all links to MH17 air atrocity UN demands full inquiry but armed Russian separatists block access to crash site amid confusion over black boxes excerpt: Pro-Russia separatist groups in eastern Ukraine are hastily covering up all links to the Buk missile battery suspected to have been used to shoot down the Malaysia Airlines passenger plane, according to western-based defence and intelligence specialists. As the UN security council called for a "full, thorough independent international investigation" into the downing of the plane, concern that a cover-up was under way was fuelled by a standoff at part of the crash site between observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and rebel gunmen, which ended with a warning shot being fired. Postings on rebel websites immediately after the crash boasted of having shot down what they claimed was an Antonov Ukrainian military transport plane, but these have since been deleted. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/separ atist-links-malaysia-airlines-mh17-removed | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Let me get this straight. Two possibilities for consideration. 1. Poorly trained separatists get a sophisticated SAM. They lack the ability to positively ID an AC cruising at 33,000 ft, but assume Malaysian B777 is another military transport, so they shoot it down. Tragically, they killed 298 civilians by mistake. 2. The Ukrainian military and air traffic control (civilian?) purposely guided the Malaysian airliner into a slaughter. And, I assume you mean they also shot it down, rather than just putting them into the crosshairs of separatists. Either way, the result is the MURDER of 298 civilians from everywhere but Ukraine and Russia. Again, let me get this straight. You choose to believe option 2??? If so, that is a truly insane outlook. I don't recall stating I believed anything - other than Russia / Putin are being blamed before any factual evidence has been shown  Just about every British newspaper today carries headlines blaming Putin. "Putin killed my baby" being one of those headlines. Seems the West's media has its mind made up, like several do in this topic. The Russian media however takes a different view (option 2 as you put it). They're reporting the possibility of Ukraine shooting the plane down to lay blame with Russia, opening a door for U.S. and UN presence in Ukraine. Such they claim could be supported by the abnormal behaviour of Ukraine's air traffic control, directing the flight over a known war zone. This being 200 miles north of the usual route taken by this flight daily. All American flight operators, and British Airways, have been avoiding flying over the route taken by MH17 for several months. Confirmed also by Malaysian air, the plane being asked to drop from 35000 feet to 22000 feet. Then there's the Spanish flight controller tweeting in real time, flight MH17 was being escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it was shot down. The account and tweets now gone. All is not what it seems eh gunny. Pro-Russia separatist groups in eastern Ukraine are hastily covering up all links to the Buk missile battery suspected to have been used to shoot down the Malaysia Airlines passenger plane, according to western-based defence and intelligence specialists. If the Guardian are going to write this rubbish (rubbish because they provide no proof) where is the actual 'report' or 'information' from these western-based defence and intelligence specialists, and who exactly are they? The wording alone (western-based) is so transparent it's clear whoever wrote the Guardian's piece could have got it off a toilet wall - or more likely MADE IT UP. Otherwise the report would say EXACTLY who the western-based defence and intelligence specialists are would it not. THIS IS ALL A CROC OF SHIT UNTIL THE FACTS ARE KNOWN. UNTIL THIS TIME NO ONE, INCLUDING RUSSIA / PUTIN CAN BE BLAMED. When who to blame is known, then it's time to condemn, and not until. Rocket in England | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Some Chinese Humor... http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4da_1405779199 | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
On a more serious note...... Leaked phone conversation from Igor Bezler claiming to have shot down the plane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjJzBvfAtA Of course, we can't know if this is Bezler. Regardless, this is him. http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118770/who-igor -bezler-russian-rebel-implicated-malaysia-flight-1 7 Seems he's a bit of a self proclaimed anti-Ukrainian fighting force. Alexander Borodai, head of the Donetsk People's Republic, once an ally of Bezler, branded him a terrorist. When the Demon isn't going to bed at 10:30 and waking up with the Soviet anthem on his lips, he's creating problems. Almost as soon as the Ukrainian government restarted its offensive against the rebels at the beginning of this month, Bezler took advantage. He moved from Gorlovka to the regional capital of Donetsk, and tried to seize power there. He and his men attacked the Donetsk police headquarters, and the situation quickly devolved into a firefight between Bezler's men and those of Alexander Borodai, head of the Donetsk People's Republic, the self-declared separatist entity. Borodai, once an ally, was forced to brand Bezler "a terrorist." Whether Bezer shot the plane down or not, it appears he is capable of doing so by his own admission. He'd also be the perfect patsy for the job, by his own admission it would seem. Either way, Bezler being the one responsible, he appears somewhat detached from the separatists, and from Russia, but of course, if the shoe fits......or should that be shoes, both he and Putin will appear to be wearing it. Will we ever know the truth  Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
Either way, Bezler being the one responsible, he appears somewhat detached from the separatists, and from Russia, but of course, if the shoe fits......or should that be shoes, both he and Putin will appear to be wearing it. Yes, so detached that he was given a Russian SA-11 missile system. They have video of it being taken back across the border into Russia. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/18/is-this -the-mh17-smoking-gun-new-video-purports-to-captur e-rebels-transporting-key-piece-of-cargo-toward-ru ssian-border/ It's missing two of it's missiles. That seems to match the number of planes recently shot down. Then you have the separatists taking over the crash scene, not allowing UN investigators in to see what happened. Not allowing Malaysia to see what happened. Not allowing the NTSB in to see what happened (yes they belong there to being that it was a crash of a US made jet). They claim to have the black boxes, but are not turning them over to investigators. There's tons more evidence that points to Russia being heavily involved in this beyond what I've just pointed out. Please though, keep telling us how we know virtually nothing about what happened. It's very entertaining. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Russian fingerprints all over this. Can't deny the overwhelming evidence. | ||
| Aesquire |
The problem is this. Any SAM used is going to be Russian built. No doubt. On either side. the Ukraine was equipped with Russian gear since they were conquered a long time ago. Never a member of NATO, they won't have Italian missiles. They have Russian ones. So does Russia, and Russian gear is naturally in the hands of the Russian Army illegally in Ukraine, out of uniform, the Russian backed rebels, and the mercs Russia is shipping in by the convoy. Ukraine is an industrial nation and makes a LOT of airplane parts for American companies. Many Ukrainians were in the Soviet Armed Forces. Training in SAM's isn't that rare. Even the "manpads" or "Stinger" style shoulder fired rockets used up to a few miles altitude are going to be Russian made. Can't tell who's finger was on the button. I Don't believe MSNBC, or RT news, and the first news reports on this kind of thing is almost always wrong. It's a pretty screwed up world where deleted twits are supposed to be the critical evidence that Ends WW3. (Message edited by aesquire on July 19, 2014) | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Russian fingerprints on the trigger or at the command of trigger. Evidence is building... No doubt in my mind. We will here the story soon... I mean... the spin... in a few weeks probably.... when they come up with something good enough. Didn't previous wars allow the removal of the dead? These bastards are letting the victims decomposing on the side of the road. Coal workers helped but look who is in control in that area. Only so much you can do till some fat separatist points ak in ur face. (Same folks in control of area where missile was shot from) Putin on the Ritz. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Now would be good time to land some few thousand Ukrainian troops to take control of crash site.... crime scene.... | ||
| Reindog |
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| Rocket_in_uk |
They have video of it being taken back across the border into Russia. Neither audio or video recording of Bezler or the missile launcher have been verified. There are reports surfacing, the missile launcher was filmed over 200 miles away. Again not verified. Time will tell. Then you have the separatists taking over the crash scene, not allowing UN investigators in to see what happened. Not allowing Malaysia to see what happened. Not allowing the NTSB in to see what happened (yes they belong there to being that it was a crash of a US made jet). The leadership of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) has been accusing the international community of taking too much time to send international experts to the crash site. “We’ve been inviting them for three days, but so far no one has come except for four experts from Ukraine,” Kavtaradze told RT on Sunday. A day earlier DPR’s PM, Aleksandr Boroday, accused the international community of lacking enthusiasm to investigate the plane crash. “Several dozen experts are currently in Kiev,” he said. “Can they please come here faster? We are surprised and frankly angered that we have to keep the area untouched while we are waiting for them for so long.” ......... The international community, on the other hand, has been accusing the anti-Kiev forces on the ground of mishandling bodies and evidence at the crash site. The Dutch foreign minister said his country was "furious" to hear bodies were being "dragged around." Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott described the crash site in the territory controlled by anti-Kiev forces as "absolutely chaotic." Boroday explained all of the actions undertaken at the site of the crash were dictated by urgent humanitarian need to take care of the decomposing bodies. The government of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) once again said it was waiting for the international experts to come and said it guaranteed their security, but wanted the Kiev authorities to agree to a ceasefire in turn, according to statement by DPR’s deputy PM, Andrey Purgin. "We declare that we guarantee security of international experts at the site of the tragedy if Kiev agrees to a ceasefire,” the statement reads as cited by RIA Novosti. “We call on Kiev to immediately sign this agreement with DPR at least for the period of time while experts are going to work at the site of the plane crash.” Meanwhile, foreign journalists managed to get to a station where a train with the dead bodies stood. Their tweets from the site made many internet users wonder why journalists were able to make it to the crash scene, but experts could not. There's tons more evidence that points to Russia being heavily involved in this beyond what I've just pointed out. Please though, keep telling us how we know virtually nothing about what happened. It's very entertaining. Oh pipe down with your foolish finger pointing. What the f**k would Russia be doing wanting to down a passenger full 777 over Ukraine? Please enlighten me as to why this would be of any value to Russian interests in east Ukraine. I am all ears to hear your intelligent response based on these tons of evidence I've not heard of. Has anyone? Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
Russia deliberately shooting down an airliner? The only motive I can think of is naked power show of force. "Don't Mess with Me" They've done it before, and lied about it after. Still lie about it. Always will. But that doesn't make sense to me in this context. Unless it's an escalation against the sanctions..... and counting on Obama to cave, or Obey His Masters..... works out the same. Makes more sense that it was the Russian supported and supplied locals making a mistake. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/the-spotl ess-sun-and-climate-change-models-what-was-russia- thinking-peer-review-and-a-mixed-bag-of-other-inte resting-comments/ What Was Russia Thinking? Jerry, To make any sense at all of the airliner shoot-down, you have to look at what Russia was (apparently) trying to accomplish in the region. In brief, in recent weeks they seemed to be trying to impose a deniable "no-fly zone" over eastern Ukraine. "No-fly zone", because Ukrainian government forces in eastern Ukraine recently had started systematically rolling up the Russian-supported ethnic-Russian separatists. Taking away Ukrainian air-support, air transport, and air reconnaissance would put the separatists back in the game without Russia having to blatantly raise their military presence on the ground. Deniable, because Russia’s economy is already hurting from sanctions, and Russia very much needs to avoid forcing Western Europe to stop turning a blind eye and hanging back in the matter. Overt Russian attacks on Ukrainian aircraft over Ukrainian territory, just like formations of Russian troops inside Ukraine, would be hard even for the Western Europeans to ignore. Of course, the separatists have had shoulder-fired AA missiles for a while now, and Ukraine has been losing occasional helicopters and transports at low altitude for weeks. This hasn’t been enough to stop their offensive. This week though, things changed. A Ukrainian An-26 twin-turboprop transport was shot down at 21,000 feet (above practical shoulder-fired missile range) Monday. At the time, Ukraine said they thought the SAM may have came from Russian territory. A Ukrainian SU-25 ground-attack jet was shot down Wednesday, Ukraine says by an air-to-air missile fired from Russian airspace. The pilot survived, and there also would have been radar coverage; they may well actually have known where the missile came from. And then there are the recent-days press reports I sent you yesterday of the separatists having at least one mobile SA-11 "BUK" launcher, and of that launcher being spotted on the ground by an AP reporter in separatist hands. (Much more social-media and eyewitness evidence of this – and of the launcher minus-two-missiles being hastily moved back into Russia – is surfacing, now that there’s no choice but to pay attention.) The clincher as far as I’m concerned is one early Russian reaction to the airliner shootdown: Indignation that the Ukraine ATC center had failed to realize that high-altitude aircraft were now at risk, and thus to route civilian airliners around the area. This is an implicit admission that the Russians thought it was already obvious that high-altitude heavy aircraft were now at risk over eastern Ukraine. And who but the ones delivering the message would assume so, after only two under-reported and somewhat ambiguous high-altitude incidents, both recent enough that details hadn’t yet really circulated? My assumption, based on this: The SA-11 battery ended up in separatist hands with Russian support, with the intent of providing the visible fig-leaf for a Russian shutdown of Ukrainian air assets in the region. This fits the circumstances far better than any other theory I’ve heard. But the Russians apparently miscalculated on two counts: They wrongly assumed their message would get across to the rest of the world quickly and unambiguously (which may indicate far too high an opinion of western civil aviation bureaucrats.) And they may have left the separatist SA-11 battery too loosely supervised. (It’s also possible the local Russian "advisors" either assumed or were told that three days after their first shootdown, anything coming over would have to be Ukrainian military.) The only good news in the whole murderous mess is that the Russians now would have to be barking mad to continue their "no-fly zone" attempt. I wouldn’t totally rule out their doubling down, though, as they were pretty damn crazy to try it in the first place. But their obvious play now is to push for a cease-fire in place, which would also have the original desired effect of stopping the Ukrainian push to reassert control over the region. All the while denying and obfuscating furiously as only guilty Russians can. Henry A good analysis, and about the conclusion I have reached. Thank You Downed airliner Jerry: It seems to me that given the manner in which Ukraine disintegrated, it was almost inevitable that the Russian separatists would have acquired BUK missiles and launchers from captured Ukrainian military bases. Even if the rebels did not capture the missiles, Russia had an obvious and arguably legitimate national interest in preventing Ukraine from using high altitude aircraft to wipe out the Russian separatists. I seem recall the US setting the precedent of supplying SAMs to rebels in a place called Afghanistan. The US is currently supplying SAMs to rebel forces in Syria who just happen to be the same rebels who now control much of Iraq. The salient point is that Eastern Ukraine is a war zone. There have been quite a few aircraft shot down including several in recent weeks. Any airline with a brain would fly around a war zone. James Crawford= Which is about all you can say about it. It’s a war, and we don’t need to be in it. And as Putin says, if he cannot make friends with the West, there are potential friends for Russia in the East… MH17 and the Ukraine crisis. The way Russia is behaving, is a step back into the great power politics leading up to the 1. and 2. world war, and continued into the cold war. One might have hoped for a different kind of politics in this day, and the fall of the Soviet Union did give a hope of a world where international law and civilized behavior between nations, would be the norm. Should we all recognize that is was an error, an unobtainable goal? In that case we will need well armed alliances again, willing to use or threaten with war again. Or a steep further along the distribution of ultimate force, where more and more nations will build a nuclear arsenal. Or try to make an example of out of Russia, of what happens when a "great power" tries to bully its neighbors, effectively isolating and impoverishing it? One thing is quite certain: Russia under Putin is no use as an ally. Regards Bo Andersen Denmark I would not agree, but it is rapidly coming to that point. Russia and the US have many common interests, but given the anti-Slavic attitude – and bombings – in the Balkan during Albright foreign policy, the continued encirclement of Russia – some of it botched – and Mr. Obama’s mood swings, President Putin may have concluded that the US is no use as an ally or even a friend. But you are correct: it is a new era of Great Powers, and requires a realistic approach to foreign policy. And I continue to believe: John Quincy Adams on American Policy: Whenever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. Fourth of July, 1821 That’s an interesting point about the Alabama Claims. A class-action suit against Russia by the families of the dead passengers? Russia may have more reasons than they realize for hastily hiding any evidence they supported the separatists. I am not a lawyer, but there already looks to be enough evidence for lawsuit purposes that the separatists did it. Russia meanwhile has deep pockets, and was all over the scene of the crime. They could conceivably lose such a lawsuit on a mix of circumstantial evidence they supported the separatists plus evidence of trying to cover up that support. I might want to get this in front of a Dutch judge, were I a lawyer. Or Australian… 298 dead people times some substantial number of millions each? I’d be surprised if the lawyers aren’t already circling. Henry http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/19/white-ho use-leadership-reagan-on-kal-007-vs-obama-on-mh17/ ?intcmp=obnetwork | ||
| Aesquire |
Also.... Separatists and missiles Jerry: I would point out that A), the separatists have captured a LOT of Ukrainian materiel and ordnance, and B), they’ve already been shooting down aircraft with it. Dunno if they have anything with 33,000 feet of reach, but remember that the Russkis had 60,000-foot reach in 1960 (when they shot down Powers’ U-2 and one of their own pilots who was trying to shadow Powers). I wouldn’t be surprised if Ukraine had (and lost) systems that can down jetliners. Pix of the crash site show that the plane was relatively intact and in a steep but NOT VERTICAL descent when it hit the ground, which is consistent with damage caused by hits from fragments of what was almost a near-miss, pointing to the possibility of missiles launched by semi-skilled operators. Control systems or surfaces don’t take much damage before being rendered ineffective. I have no explanation for a lack of distress calls from the plane. It would have taken as long as a couple of minutes to go from cruise altitude to the ground, more than long enough to have let someone know there was a problem. Keith Gary Powers died believing he was shot down, but Possony and I concluded long ago that he was downed by a bomb planted in his U2 in Pakistan. The Soviets had no surface to air missile capable of reaching that altitude anywhere near the site of the supposed interception, and it is doubtful that they had anything capable of that at all. Not as off topic as it may seem.... Could the Soviet Union have won the cold war? Interesting speculative piece. But missed the main event. Yes – if Lenin had lived. Lenin started out an orthodox communist – but when he saw that it wasn’t’ working, he was flexible and adapted to a "New Economic Policy" (NEP), which was a lot like modern China. As Churchill said, the greatest tragedy of Russia was that Lenin had been born, the second greatest was that he died when he did. That let Stalin take over, and not just kill all the smart Soviets, but also cancel the NEP and move back to the dead hand of completely centralized economic planning. If Lenin had lived ten more years and been healthy? One never knows… One can speculate what the world would be like if Churchill had been listened to in the early 30's, and Britain had seriously prepped for war with Herr Hitler and supported Czechoslovakia. The loss of the Skoda munitions works and one of the best Armies in Europe hurt the allies far more than commonly taught in schools. Today, under Commie Core, I don't think they mention WW2 at all except perhaps as Imperialist Aggression against the Socialist Utopias.... Doomed to repeat........ | ||
| Aesquire |
And.....anecdotal, to be sure.... From a Russian pilot on a Airplane thread, they know Putin is a former KGB guy, and don't trust him, or Russian news to be honest. To be fair they have a century of getting murdered and lied to, so I'd call that the voice of experience. From a Dutch pilot.. People here in the Netherlands - while outraged - realize that citizens aren't the same as the deeds of a country/government. In fact, the dubbing of Russian state television made the news here yesterday. They (Russian national tv) covered a press conference by our PM (in Dutch). Unfortunately, the Russian dubbing had little to nothing to do with what Rutte actually said about his conversation with Putin, in many points the translation was the direct opposite of his actual words... Speaking of not trusting... we've got Obama. Bush the Elder might puke in your Prime Minister's lap, but he didn't bow to Kings. Not so happy with his treatment of Iran.... but that's been true since Jimmy the Peanut Farmer. ( Now a paid shill for the Arabs ) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Here's the Spanish ATC's real time tweets. http://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controlle r-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down -boeing-mh17/5391888 Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
http://worldtruth.tv/nwo-attempted-assassination-o f-vladimir-putin-but-got-the-wrong-plane/ Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
Just keeping a small touch of skepticism here... How in the world would someone sitting in a control tower in Kiev possibly know who shot the plane down? As far as I'm concerned, that would need to be explained before anything from this twitter account can be taken seriously. Of course the first thing stated in the story is that this twitter account is questionable at best. | ||
| Aesquire |
New World Order? And RTV already said Putin's plane was nowhere near the area.... Is Vladimir Putin's security guys so stupid they would fly over Ukraine while he's supporting a war there? Give me a break. I know there really are vast evil conspiracies in the world... The folk wanting to bring back the Soviet Union, The folk wanting cheap labor and want to crash the US labor market so they can pay us less, and what the heck, the EU bureaucracy that wants to have absolute power... Actually that last one is completely open, as is Obama's desire to make Western Civilization second class, his support for Islamist terrorists, and the fact that he never plays golf with anyone who will tell us he cheats... So....that "spanish ATC" fellow. Is he real? It's a global world, of course he could have used a program to send his twits from a different country. England? Is Rocket the Spanish ATC? Inquiring minds want to know. Rocket, check your link there, they've had updates. Update: Since posting this article, we have received reports to the effect the Spanish Air controller is fake and that the twitter message were sent out of London. Upon further investigation, the Spanish Air Controller conducted several media interviews in the last 2-3 months, see his interview with RT: http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/127516-am enazar-controlador-espanol-ucrania-crisis The Spanish Air Controller’s twitter account was closed down. So, "they" ARE telling us lies. That is the only certainty. "They" could be the EU/Obama conspiracy. ( F... the EU must be some french term of loyalty and brotherhood ) The evil slime that run the EU. ( see, no argument from me on that possibility ) The scum in charge of some of Ukraine. The other scum in charge of part of Ukraine. The leader of the third, or maybe second, most powerful nation on Earth. ( One which has the truth credibility of a crack dealer ) You pick your evil bastards. Be prepared to be wrong, but enjoy going by incomplete data. Hmm... motives...motives.... Who is winning? Vladimir. Sure isn't Obama. Don't think it's anyone in Ukraine. Doubt it's the EU. I'm still mostly guessing it's Vladimir with Obama as his minion. | ||
| Sifo |
That would be his "more flexible" minion. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
How in the world would someone sitting in a control tower in Kiev possibly know who shot the plane down? Look, I've kept an open mind on this, but for the sake of your question, as I understood it the Spanish ATC claimed Ukrainian jets were following the 777 up until minutes before it was 'lost' from radar. Given this alleged Spanish ATC was supposedly tweeting in real time he stated the control tower was said (tweeted) to have been taken over by military at 10.25, with continuing tweets stating the 777 disappeared at 10.27. At 10.30 MH17 was said to be shot down, and at 10.35 tweeted those in the tower were threatened and their phones about to be confiscated. Of course, I got that the tweets were later said to be fake, but read the same report to say further investigation showed Spanish ATC had previous communication history with RT, which I took to mean he and the tweets were not fake nor from 'London'. I have no idea if the Spanish ATC is for real and the tweets being factual. What I do know is there's no conclusive proof YET either way. The important thing here is the bigger picture. That being the consistent blame upon Putin and Russia from almost the moment MH17 crashed. This being not just extremely poor reporting by the Western media, but the threats of more sanctions against Russia from the U.S., UK, Netherlands, France, and other nations just hours after the tragedy adding to the condemnation of Russia without a shred of evidence to its involvement. What does seem clear is Putin yet again being the only nations leader speaking with any clarity directly relating to the events surrounding the loss of MH17. Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
Given this alleged Spanish ATC was supposedly tweeting in real time he stated the control tower was said (tweeted) to have been taken over by military at 10.25, with continuing tweets stating the 777 disappeared at 10.27. At 10.30 MH17 was said to be shot down, and at 10.35 tweeted those in the tower were threatened and their phones about to be confiscated. I gather that you are looking at this as a chronological series of events based on time stamped tweets. You seem to suggest that the military is taking over the control tower just before the plane is shot down. I would suggest that this is an incorrect assessment of what your are looking at. His first tweet suggests that something is being blamed on pro-Russians. He already knows the plane has been shot down at 10:21. That only tells us that the military was in the tower building at 10:21, but tells us nothing about the shooting down of the plane. I don't find it the least bit surprising that they would show up at the tower to gather and preserve evidence of what happened. This of course assumes he is actually an ATC person. This fact is not verified, and has been questioned. This still leaves the question open though. How would someone sitting in a control tower know who shot the plane down. He has no access to any information that would give him this insight. At best he is jumping to conclusions. | ||
| Reindog |
RIE said:
Please tell us that you are joking. Putin came out within hours of the massacre and blamed Ukraine. (Message edited by reindog on July 21, 2014) | ||
| Chauly |
http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 Interesting take on TV imprisoning Putin, in a manner of speaking... | ||
| Court |
I'm waiting for the big o to boldly draw a line in the sand . . . we've done that in the past and it scares the crap out of other countries as they go ahead and do whatever they please. All this stuff is threatening to cut into valuable fund raising time . . . | ||
| Reepicheep |
Or sanctions. So Putin has say he really wont ever never ever do anything like what he may or may not have done but won't admit to. Nothing terrifies an ex KGB agent like having to make an unaccountable promise with no admission of wrongdoing. That $hi+ terrifies those guys. | ||
| Reindog |
On second thought, I 100% agree with Rocket. Putin does speak with clarity because he knows exactly what happened as he is ultimately the responsible party. | ||
| Aesquire |
In related news... ( Wars sponsored by Russia ) http://www.timesofisrael.com/tens-of-thousands-ral ly-in-london-against-israels-gaza-op/ At one point, a woman on the podium shouted “from the river to the sea” — a call for the elimination of Israel — and protesters responded by yelling “Palestine will be free.” http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.60 6036 http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_FRANCE_G AZA_PROTEST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT& CTIME=2014-07-20-13-36-16 http://news.yahoo.com/looting-paris-europeans-prot est-against-gaza-conflict-201348479.html;_ylt=AwrBEiRyQsxTxBUACGnQtDMD And riots in Paris... I note that the Green Party supports the Terrorist side. ( naturally, since the Greens are Bright Red inside ) How do you think England would react if Ireland shot hundreds of unguided rockets into England from Liverpool to London, for the purpose of randomly killing civilians? For years. After asking for cease fires so they could regroup and get more shiploads of missiles from Russia. And Iran. | ||
| Aesquire |
Correction. Thousands of rockets. Even Hitler didn't hide his V2's inside civilian's houses. http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/07/21/how-israel-is -winning-the-pr-battle-against-hamas/ Sometimes the truth finds it's way past the lies. Moral equivalence is dead. When Bill Clinton, the “international community”-blessed architect of Oslo, can blatantly declare "n the short and medium term Hamas can inflict terrible public relations damage by forcing (Israel) to kill Palestinian civilians to counter Hamas. But it’s a crass strategy that takes all of our eyes off the real objective which is a peace that gets Israel security and recognition and a peace that gets the Palestinians their state." it is obvious that Hamas has finally shot themselves in the foot with the terrorists’ ideological weapon of choice. So, why do news agencies insist on reporting nothing more than body counts in evening news reports, as if the latest conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians is nothing more than a sports game? Clinton may be a pervert, but he isn’t stupid. He acknowledged the “public relations” battle because he knows that the press follows the cues given by Hamas, the terrorist organization that holds reporters in Gaza against their will. Unless they have the intellect of toddlers, these reporters cannot be blind to the brainwashing from birth that turns children into human shields. Nor can they be so totally blind to the rocket launchers hiding behind schools and mosques in residential neighborhoods. Yet, the best they can muster is a body count followed by sarcastic commentary like that of CNN’s Ben Wedeman: “There is no Iron Dome in Gaza to protect civilians.” Amazing. Toddler Ben gets a gold star for that stellar observation. CNN is no longer programming in my house. If I bothered to watch, it would be to list the sponsors and send them a nice letter telling them I no longer buy any products their company makes because of their support for Hate Propaganda and a Anti-semite bias. http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/07/09/obama-adminis tration-threatens-israel-under-fire/ If only Obama's Sponsors would respond to such tactics. When my Refrigerator died, GE was not an option. I sent them a letter telling them why. They responded by putting me on their e-mail contest list. It's a good thing I don't travel in the circles of the GE CEO. I'd be in jail now. Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, the same guy Gordon cites as a courageous and reliable peace partner, hasn’t uttered a word to stop his government’s partner from firing in Israel’s direction. Nor has he bothered to reveal that his own Fatah members are joining in the rocket barrage. In fact, the most this “peace partner” can say is, ”it all started when Israel fired back”. Doesn't that sound like a certain troll's logic? |
