| Author | Message | ||
     Gschuette |
Who knows what the AX will bring but I assume it will be competing with the KTM 1190 and BMW GS. I rode one of the two today. I rode the KTM 1190 Adventure standard model. Hands down, best motorcycle I've had the pleasure to ride. I guarantee I'd be faster on any public road riding that than I would be on my old non traction control equipped crossplane R1. The lean angle sensing ABS is incredible. Deep trail braking is no problem as the bike just dives into the corner with no drama. The traction control keeps the front wheel skimming the ground while leaving darkies out of the corner. BTW, I promise it leaves big fat darkies. I did the same corners a few times and noticed they were increasing in number with each pass. The electro suspension was transparent. The bike just seemed perfectly planted on big bumps and cracks in the back roads. Incredible machine. The best part is that I didn't feel like a passenger and the bike was doing all the work. I still felt in control and involved in the process. It checked all the appropriate motorcycle emotional boxes. The performance was just incredibly accessible. I've never hopped on a bike and felt so at home. Great gearbox too. The R1 had the best box of any bike I've ever owned yet I never really thought it was all that great, just better than my other bikes. I'd love to own a bike with a pleasing transmission. I think I found my next bike! Anyone else have one or at least ridden one? Were you as smitten as I am? | ||
| Malott442 |
I agree on the trans and TCS. I went on a demo ride, and when I got back on my 1100GS, it was like going from cruising in this Lambo  to plowing in this Lambo : | ||
| Prior |
I'm looking forward to seeing what the 1190AX ends up being as well. I'm a few years out on getting a new bike, Uly is still on the road and I haven't been logging tons of miles lately, but the KTM 1190 ADV and the R1200GS/A have been the bikes I've been looking at. The KTM sounds like an absolutely awesome machine. Thanks for the review! | ||
| Gschuette |
Yeah my TR650 has a transmission that is probably less accurate than the aforementioned tractor. That was the worst part of riding home. I had the chance to ride the BMW after the KTM but chose not to. I don't like the boxer sound, it's more expensive, it's a shaft, and I'm not as big on the looks. So I didn't want to risk ruining the experience and lusting after a bike even more out of reach. Though neither are unobtainable they are pricey. I think I could swing one with careful planning. Wanting the cheaper of the two makes it that much easier. I was amazed at how good the front felt. I thought that coming from a long line of 17" front wheels, the front end traction and feedback would be lacking. I am happy to say my fears were unfounded. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I just cannot warm up to the idea of riding in such a manner that if it were not for the computer, I'd crash. I don't think I will ever be able to place that much trust in computer/software systems, especially when I witness their glitches/failures on a daily basis. But more than that- I guess I'm just old-fashioned and take pride in my ability to actually ride a motorcycle instead of praising my bike's ability to save me from my own inability. At the current rate, motorcycles won't even need a rider in the near future- and what's the point of that? | ||
| Gschuette |
It's ok, I was a luddite once too. I wasn't riding in a manner that would result in a crash without the electronics. It wasn't saving me from my own inability either. I too take pride in riding a motorcycle well. Trouble is, that riding takes place almost exclusively on public roads. Roads with the occasional unexpected decreasing radius turn full of gravel with a pothole on the exit. They also have errant wildlife, people backing out of their driveways, turning left in front of you in intersections, etc. At those moments my "pride in my ability" goes out the window and is replaced by a desire to wake up again tomorrow. You aren't a perfect rider and neither am I. I'll trade some pride for an incredibly transparent safety net on the street. Of course, you can always turn the systems off. | ||
| Sifo |
Been having some minor starting issues with my Triumph Sprint ST lately and my wife has been beating the drum on the Tiger 800 telling me I should ride one. She loved it when she rode it. So I went to the local shop and it was out on rental. After talking a bit with the salesman he suggested riding the KTM 1190. How could I say no. It really is an incredible bit of work. It made simple work of riding a wheelie through each gear way past the speed limit. Simply pin the throttle and let the computer do the work. Strange. Fun. Unnerving. I kind of liked it and kind of hated it. Switching modes on the computer was straight forward and could be done while moving. It just tells you to close the throttle so it wont switch modes while under power. Each mode showed definite differences. The computerized suspension setup was a great system too. Great comfort and pretty good wind protection. Here's my problem with a bike like this though... You pay a huge premium for that kind of performance, then pay even more for state of the art electronics to dial it back to make it rideable at lower speeds. It does a great job of it, but it really is dialed way back for the first couple of gears. If you really need the power at high speeds, then it might make sense. I'll let others make the call for themselves. I did ride the Tiger 800 a few days later and found it to be a great bike that simply doesn't need the electronics to be rideable. It costs much less too. The seat height of the Tiger was far more suitable to street riding than the KTM, unless you are pretty tall and like being way up there. If there were no price difference the KTM would be the obvious choice for me. Given the thousands of dollars in price difference though I can say that the Tiger 800 may find a place in my garage in the future. Both are very impressive bikes IMO. I have to admit I'm curious how the AX will compare, but I'm still waiting to see the SX at the dealer. Still no SX as of yesterday. | ||
| Gschuette |
I rode the 800 last year and did not care for it. The ABS was herky jerky and it had some odd vibrations and noises. It might have just been issues from a hard ridden demo. The Street Triple I rode on the same day was incredible and the two speed triples I've ridden in the past were also amazing. So I can't totally write off the Tiger 800. Have you been on the 1200? I haven't had a chance to try out the 1200. I have a friend with a latest generation multistrada that has offered a ride but I try to refrain from riding friend's bikes. I'm kind of curious now, how the Duc stacks up. This KTM is so transparent thought, and the power!  | ||
| Sifo |
This KTM is so transparent thought, and the power! YES! The sales guy said the Duc was a lot like the KTM but just urged you to keep the throttle twisted even more. We agreed that this was probably not the droid I'm looking for, so I didn't bother to ride it. No, I haven't tried the 1200. I'd really like to keep things lighter. I would be very happy with the 800 for it's purpose in my garage. As an only bike, I might want a bit more punch. Still, it gets out of it's own way quite nicely. Odd that the 800 you rode had vibration issues. I rode their rental bike that had 24K on the clock. One thing that I noticed was that I was cruising at 60 mph and felt virtually zero vibration anywhere. The Street Triple is a terrific bike in it's class. The seat is VERY uncomfortable for long rides though. Upgrading to a Corbin was much better, but they don't have anything for the latest revision of the Street Triple. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
How have we possibly survived this long without our computers? The point is, how does one gain (or gauge) ability if the rider's ability is removed from the equation? Can one be an experienced rider if it doesn't require any experience to operate a motorcycle? Is it a good thing to not need any experience to operate a motorcycle? These are the questions I find myself asking, but they're not the really big issue. The big issue is that software/electronics give manufactures power over their product unlike anything seen before- leaving "owners" more at their mercy than ever. Repair issues can be "created" and "fixed" with a few strokes of a keyboard, and planned obsolescence (repair cost vs value) becomes a cinch. All this technology is great for the manufacturer, but at the expense of the user/"owner". For me, however, it's much more simple than that- I just don't trust it. There isn't any electronic/computer/software device I use that doesn't have routine glitches or issues. Even if they work perfectly I haven't required a computer to "save my ass" for over forty years, so why do I need one now? Sure, technology is a good thing, but NASA and the military learned early on that even remotely reliable software systems require simple tasks and multiple redundancy. Is that what we're getting in our cars and motorcycles? And that leads to the next issue- is the path leading to less, or more computers/software on vehicles? More, you say? Indeed. Why, you might ask? Because they're "safer". And safety systems should be required on all vehicles, right? So, I may be able to "turn the systems off" for now, but for how much longer? Sounds good for the manufacturer, sounds good for "nanny state" political types, but is it good for the consumer? Oh, they're way past that already- the trick is convincing the consumer that it's not safe to operate a vehicle without the technology "safety net", that way the manufacturers are only supplying what the consumer demands. Happily, I might add. So, does this make the seemingly invisible systems that protect us from ourselves a good thing? I think not, but who listens to a Luddite? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Piling on the tangent here... But I am deep in the Risk Management business, and deep into the computer software and hardware business. There are extremes. I am the *last* person to "trust" a computer, I know too much about them. But when you start talking about embedded controllers, they perform with a level of reliability orders beyond what a normal computer could ever do. The firmware is embedded in the chip, it is 1/1000000 as complex, there are 1/1000 as many components in the system to fail. I built a little "audio meter" project as my first PIC-16 project just for fun. It's been measuring the ambient noise level in my office and driving a little bar graph of 8 LED's for 4 years now, through power outages and everything else, without missing beat. It doesn't even have a case on it, it is a bare circuit board hanging on a bulletin board with a thumb tack. In terms of computers, the thing is amazingly stable. A fair argument is that vehicle control systems are getting closer to desktop computer than they are to embedded controllers, and there is some truth in that. But it's possible to make an incredibly simple and reliable embedded system if you want. | ||
| Gschuette |
I'm not an advocate of any type of government required safety gear, electronics included. Actually I'm not a fan of government but that's a different conversation. All I know is I want to be able to regularly ride fast paced 400 mile days. If the bike has some systems that make it safer, faster, more enjoyable to do those days, I'm fine with that. You may have survived all these years without computers but a lot of people haven't. Not that these bikes are uncrashable or ride themselves but they are undeniably safer than a non electronic bike. I don't enjoy crashing and fewer ass clenching moments is also fine with me. Finally, electronics don't make the bike ride itself or remove the rider from the equation. If that were the case Dani Pedrosa would be able to challenge Marc Marquez but he can't. | ||
| Lake_bueller |
Sorry but I just don't see the need for a high performance "adventure" bike. I've ridden the KTM and BMW. For the best bang for the buck, I'm going with the Super Tenere. I'm hoping to add one to my garage next spring. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
you can't control some of the elements around you... like tar snakes and painted white/yellow road markings. I went thru Chicago once while raining it was not fun at all. (well, to be honest.. looking back now... it was AWESOME!!) What about the new front braking sensors in cars.. those will be GREAT for texting while in bumper-to-bumper traffic!!! (or passing the pipe)  | ||
| Gschuette |
I'll always pick the high performance version of something if available. I'll have a high performance power chair when I'm 97. | ||
| Slaughter |
I try avoiding test-riding something that I DARE NOT BUY - especially since my F150 is all paid off. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I test rode a KTM a couple years ago and it was too naked for me. I prefer my Ulysses! | ||
| Azxb9r |
I traded my F800st in on a 2014 R1200GS a few months back, and I am digging it. The water cooled boxer twin is an impressive engine. Lots of torque and a healthy dose of horsepower. this bike has no problem breaking the rear tire loose on dry pavement, and as others have mentioned you cant control road conditions, so the TC is a welcome addition imo. I giggle a little every time it intervenes. I try to ride in a manner that keeps me in command of power application, but it is nice to have that safety net if I get a bit hamfisted or hit something on the road surface. While electronic aids could be seen as removing the skill from the rider, I think that is a bit of an overstatement. The rider does not need to display as much control with throttle and brake application but you still have all the other nuances of riding, and no amount of electronic intervention can make up for poor judgement. | ||
| Etennuly |
I totally agree with Redbuelljunkie. If we are over riding the bikes to the point that the ABS needs to save our asses, we are simply over riding it. If tar snakes are a problem you are going too fast or turning, gravel, too fast or turning, "Sally Texting Subaru driver", Darwin award time, should have driven the truck. Azxb9r: The rider does not need to display as much control with throttle and brake application but you still have all the other nuances of riding, and no amount of electronic intervention can make up for poor judgement. It seems to me that poor judgment or bad luck is what the electronics for the common rider is to compensate for, but in the highest forms of racing it can be like sharpening the knife, getting just a little bit more, a tuning device. I don't want ABS on my bikes either, I don't want a computer driven safety net lulling me into "feeling safer". That safety promotion is a BS sales pitch anyways. Your ABS is not worth a crap if you got T boned by a car. Even a car with the intelligent braking system won't save many people from accidents, because there is no way it could "see" you coming from a side angle into the path of Sally Text A Lot's Subaru, that is sure to be when your ABS stops your bike, just as she hits you. Darwin was right about population control. You go on TV advertising how the "safer" car can see for you and people will lean on the system and test it beyond the laboratory test conditions. Not all objects are stationary, or moving in the same direction. If you tell some people it is there for when you are not paying attention.....they just lost their need to pay attention at all. Skills and luck are what get us through this world of motorcycling. Too many safety nets can dull your skills and make you sloppy about luck. "I'm not worried my bike will do it for me".....yeah, right. I do, however look forward to a good airbag type suit or system in case of one of those "Sally Subaru" days. | ||
| Azxb9r |
If you tell some people it is there for when you are not paying attention.....they just lost their need to pay attention at all. Sad but true. Traction control does have one other benefit that has not been mentioned yet...depending on the level it is set at, it does allow some wheel spin, so you get a chance to see how the bike feels as it is coming loose. | ||
| Gschuette |
Funny how those in this thread who have some seat time on the latest generation ADV bikes are raving about them while the posts with no first hand experience are knocking these new bikes. I'd say it's obvious that no ABS system is going to save you if a car t-bones you. Now if that car pulls out in front of you on a tar snaked road and you are doing 45 mph, having a perfect application of brakes is fine with me. If that means a simple computer is making up for a bit of ham fisted panic, I'm ok with that. I'm also fine with others being against it. Enjoy your pride as you careen across the hood, I hope you air bag suit that also relys on a nice bevy of algorithms saves you! The electronic suspension has not received too many negative comments in this thread. I suspect that's because the naysayers can't even fathom the phenomenal wheel control they are missing out on. I'd like to know the anti position on electronic suspension. When adjustable suspension came along did it reduce the purity of the sport by taking away from those who could effectively ride around the short comings of more basic suspension? "Ah Bob isn't a good rider, he has that new fangled adjustable preload, rebound and compression adjustment which hides his shortcomings as a rider. A real rider doesn't need that." "Jim can't ride sport bikes, he just bought one of those new four strokes because he can't manage the hit of power on these two strokes like us real riders. Huh? I high sided last year? I don't remember that." "Those radials Tom bought are so sticky you don't even have to know how to open the throttle smoothly. Us bias-ply guys are the real riders." "Dave can't stop better than me, it's just those new disc brakes he has doing all the work." "The only reason sam went faster over the mountain was because his bike has a steering dampener and he didn't tank slap into the weeds like the rest of us real riders." Now we have the computer dialing in the suspension countless times per second. Be a detractor all you want, it simply works. On the smooth section of twists the bike felt stiff and aggressive. On a more bombed out section of road with braking bumps and cracks from erosion the bike still felt sporty, yet the wheels were always in contact with the road. The chassis also wasn't pitching forward and back with each bump. It just followed the line I wanted. Key words, I wanted. I still had to pick the line. I still had to manage the transition from brake to throttle, I still have to determine my exit point to set up for the next corner. Having a bike set up for smooth pavement is a great feeling until you get to a rough patch. This bike gives you that great feeling on smooth stuff and then doesn't lose it's composure on the big bumps 1/4 mile down the road. To do all that and not have to stop and adjust the clickers was a revelation. If these bikes aren't for you, that's fine. More for those of us who have seen the light! For those who are on the fence, I'd say ignore the naysayers in the thread who haven't tried one of these new bikes, go out and ride one for yourself. You'll feel sorry for the detractors since they won't get to experience such an amazing machine. | ||
| Azxb9r |
Now you have gone and brought up electronic suspension. I didnt think I needed that...until I used it. The ride to Arivaca sold me on it. Set the suspension to soft and set the cruise control for the stint down I-19, then toggle the switch to the firm setting for the twisties on Arivaca road. The best of both worlds, I almost feel guilty. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Gschuette, you'll have to excuse them. Many of them are unhappy that they have digital ignitions. They long for magneto systems to come back or even points. To many on here are stuck in the past. My next machine WILL have TCS, ABS and even possible and electronic suspension. One test ride was all it took. | ||
| Gschuette |
I was excited to ride the bike but wholly unprepared for the coming experience! I've never felt more instantly comfortable with a motorcycle. My friends and family are starting to avoid me because I won't shut up about how phenomenal the ride was. lol While my Husky was serviced over the past few years I'd keep turning down test rides on these expensive bikes because my financial situation has been crap. I didn't want to lust after a bike I that was financially unattainable. Things are starting to turn up and I can see myself being able to afford a bike like this in the near future. New motorcycles are how I stay motivated to work. This KTM is now my number one source of motivation. WOW! What a machine! One test ride was all it took for me too. | ||
| Sifo |
Let's not forget those new fangled fuel injection things. Real bikes have carbs! Like it or not, computers are on modern vehicles and are here to stay. They will do more and more in the future. Some comments from the sales guy, who I've come to know and develop a certain level of trust in. He mentioned that there is a pro rider who has tested his braking ability against many of the various ABS bikes out there. I don't recall who that rider is, but supposedly, the KTM 1190 adventure is the first bike where he could not out brake the ABS system. These systems are getting better all the time. Of course this testing by a pro rider is under controlled conditions (which probably means ideal). Real world, where you may be braking over oil spots, tar snakes, gravel, pot holes, etc. can you really out perform the computer? Can you out perform the computer under any conditions? It's getting difficult for even the best riders to out perform the computer. Other systems are getting tuned better and better too. As the salesman mentioned to me, the 1190 can be put in a mode where a new rider can manage the bike just fine. I understand that the 1290 Super Duke is a real hand full with the computer controls turned off, even for experienced riders. If that's the experience you want there is good news. They usually provide a mode without the computer control. Don't be surprised when a less skilled rider rides smother than you do. I do have concern about certain commercials for cars that seem to make up for distracted drivers. Then again, if it keeps me from being plowed into from the back by someone who isn't paying attention, that's not all bad. I've had that experience too many times now. It won't be long before real world cars are offering hands off control. No doubt this will be a bag of mixed blessings. I trust that for the foreseeable future this will be a mode that can be turned off. The KTM system, with it's fly by wire throttle control really worked incredibly well. It does exactly what you would expect it to without getting intrusive. Unless of course you are trying to do things that will get you a reckless driving citation. If you want that, you may need to turn off the computer systems. As I mentioned though, for me personally, I just don't feel the need for a bike that has to be dialed back until you have exceeded the speed limit, and pay a premium for all of it to boot. Some systems though, I can really enjoy. ABS to me is a nice safety feature. I've only engaged it once on my Sprint. Still came close to a high side. It's hard to react well when you are taken by surprise leaned over in a blind corner. Yeah, that was my bad. Have you never done it? The electronic suspension settings are awesome. Probably not up to par with a suspension tuner working on it in the pits, but it sure beats what most of us do... Set it and forget it. I see this all as a mixed bag. Some will be awesome. Some not so much. Some will be totally misunderstood by some folks. I'm still surprised by people up here in snow/ice country that don't understand what ABS can do for them in a car. | ||
| Strokizator |
I've followed this thread with interest. I'm currently in Anchorage having just crossed Hatcher Pass in the rain on an FJR and wishing I still had my 990 ADV. I've held off on a new 1190 as I figure I owe EBR a chance to show me what they can do with the AX. It's admittedly a daunting task but I eagerly anticipate its release and hope the bike hits all the buttons. If not, plan B is right there at my KTM dealer. | ||
| Gschuette |
I'm excited to see the AX too. I hope it gets my blood flowing like the RX and doesn't leave me disappointed like the SX. That's strictly from an appearance perspective. I'm thinking it will outgun the Ducati and be the most powerful bike in the large ADV class. I think it will have 17" front and rear wheels. The 19" on the road was my main concern with the KTM which turned out to be completely unfounded. It handles like a sportbike and still gives you more options off road. I'm interested to see what EBR does with the suspension. Will it have any electronic features? If the AX seems to mostly take the fight to Ducati I think I'd still go with the KTM, because as my dead horse can attest, it is an amazingly well rounded bike. If they surprise me and it seems like they incorporated enough off road items to make it down a dirt road my interest will be on high alert. As much as I love my Buell I have a few concerns about the EBR design on a bike that might be dirt road capable. My brother dropped my XB12 and dented the frame even with a frame puck. So I'll never sell my XB, because of the dent and because I love it. I've been enjoying the dirt road scene recently and I would want to use mine on local dirt roads. I assume EBR won't do an entire frame redesign so their frame protection solutions are quite important to me. I want to be able to drop the bike at mile 279 on a dirt road, pick it up and still complete mile 432 as I pull into my driveway for dinner. Dropability is important. Drop it, pick it up, no broken levers or frame damage. Scuffs are fine. I don't have seat time on a RX but have read great things. I am sure EBR can create an amazing TC and ABS system that matches the KTM in transparency. By the time I am ready to proceed with a purchase I am sure the AX will be out so I will certainly give that bike strong consideration and a hard test ride before forking over the $$$. Have fun up there in Alaska. Sounds like a hell of a trip. | ||
| Sifo |
As much as I love my Buell I have a few concerns about the EBR design on a bike that might be dirt road capable. I hate to say this on this forum, but KTM might be the way to go if that is a concern. They have been in the adventure and dirt market for a long time. They have the experience. I dropped my XB12Ss once. It didn't even take out my bar end mirror, but the foot peg went bouncing across the gas station lot. I was 360 miles from home and had to create a solution. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Again, I'll point out the issues I have with computers/electronics/software that seem to get overlooked. This is not an argument about whether electronics work, I have never claimed they don't. I am sure they do everything as described... when they are functioning properly. My question is what happens when they don't function properly? What is their durability/lifespan (assuming no pre-programming for failure)? What is the cost to repair/replace them when they fail? Can they be maintained/repaired by non-OEM sources? What happens after ten years when the OEM dealer refuses to work on them? (research it- this is common now) Who do you go to with a ten plus year old motorcycle with seven computers that is having software/electrical issues that make the throttle, brakes, drive and suspension malfunction? I have these concerns because it is common to hear that a five year old computer is not worth repairing- it's easier and less expensive to just replace it. But what do you do when necessary components (formerly mechanical devices with potentially unlimited lifespans) are replaced with proprietary electronic devices that will be obsoleted within a few short years? Where do you take your 10, 15, 20 year old computers to be repaired now? You don't, you say? Well, how does that bode for your 10, 15, or 20 year old vehicle with 5, 6, or 7 computers then? It becomes disposable. Think about it- can you design a mechanical part that works on only one vehicle? Now, how hard is it to design an electronic part that only works on one vehicle (mates to the ECU, maybe)? See how that works? Mechanical parts are easy, electronic parts are complicated- especially when designed with proprietary systems that allow only the OEM to operate them. No one has complained about electronic suspension issues yet, you say? Check the BMW recall on all Dynamic ESA models. This illustrates my point exactly- take two bikes, one with conventional suspension and one with electronic suspension. Ride them for thirteen years, and then assume you have a failure. What will you be facing to fix the conventional suspension vs the electronic one? Oh, wait, you say the electronic suspension is tied in with the ride-by-wire, and the brakes, and the traction control? Wait a minute, I just want to buy the part that fixes the suspension issue- how did it get so complicated? While facing the reality that the OEM won't work on your bike anymore, and if they could still get the electronic parts they'd exceed the value of your bike... all the while the conventionally suspended bike has been fixed for not much money with an off-the-shelf part available everywhere. See how it works? And again with the amazement of how often the "safety net" intercedes when riding one of these new "wonder bikes". How on earth did you survive this long in order to ride this amazing bike that has now made motorcycling safe. It just doesn't add up. | ||
| Sifo |
Good points RBJ. You did leave something out. With a bike that becomes disposable, resale value goes right in the toilet in a hurry too. It's where things are going though, at least at the high end market. Will the OEM parts supplier be able to keep producing replacements after the OEM stops supporting the vehicle? I hope they will. There may be legal issues with software though. I really don't have a clear answer. What happens when I can no longer get the isolation mounts for my XB? Similar situation without the high tech complexity. |
