| Author | Message | ||
     Malott442 |
Why is this not a PPV? Use the proceeds to help the coping families of child victims and the children themselves. http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news /article.html/content/news/articles/ap/2014/07/10/ Florida_to_execute_man_for_rape_murder_of_girl.htm l I'm not malevolent, until you harm the helpless. You had better watch out if you do! | ||
| Zane |
My only question is why does it take 20 years to execute a killer? When there is solid incontrovertible evidence, we need to have an express line for killers. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Agreed Zane, and only one appeal then make it happen. Here in Utah when we had the, choose your form of execution, with one of the choices of that being the firing squad you can't believe how many folks volunteered for that duty when a convict would choose it. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I still don't understand why the stupid "show" aspect. The lethal injection thing.... Just put a .22 in the back of his brain and be done with it. Why does it take a squad to shoot a stationary guy? Better yet, use one of those things that they use in slaughter houses.  | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Why does it take a squad to shoot a stationary guy? Because I would shoot the pedophile/rapist in the groin.... as would a bunch of other people on the squad. SO!... they have to have at least one person to aim for the head/heart to make sure the deed gets done | ||
| Uncle |
I seem to recall somewhere that in a firing squad situation, some of the rifles have blanks. That way no one knows who actually does the killing. I may be wrong on this. Getting older...bad memory....stuff like that. | ||
| Jcjohnson33 |
Uncle you are correct there is only 1 rifle with a live round all others are blanks. All aim for the same spot all fire at the same time. So no one knows who fired the lethal round. All rifles are loaded by 1 person then they are stacked and are handed out by another and all rounds look the same afterwards so no one ever knows who shoot the live round. And to answer the question as why it takes 20+ years, the convicted has more rights than the victim. Even if they mutilated we have to be humain. Ca is the worse when it comes to ending the life of someone on death row. Just think how much money could be saved by only allowing 1 appeal then if still sentenced to death they are executed within 1 month. Not letting them die of natural causes cuz they got old. | ||
| Froggy |
Yea lets not forget about those situations where someone was falsely imprisoned for decades for a murder they didn't commit, then were later exonerated. http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Life-Innocent-25-Yea r-Journey/dp/1476756821 I'm not saying that is what happened here (I am unfamiliar with the case), but people are way too quick to jump the gun, especially in these situations where the crime happened decades ago when forensic tech and DNA evidence weren't what they are today. | ||
| Zane |
I'll stand by my original post. I specified "When there is solid incontrovertible evidence...". I'm not for whole sale killing, even of convicted killers. Froggy is right, there are cases where death row inmates are exonerated. They're few an far between but they do exist. Still some cases do deserve the express lane. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
On the firing squad situation. I believe that it is only one rifle that has the blank so each person on the squad (five here in Utah) has the option of saying "I know I had the blank", for ethical & guilt reasons. Now, nobody I have heard of here ever wanted the "excuse" and why we had so many volunteers over the years we had it. And if you have ever shot a blank in a rifle, you know immediately from the lack of recoil. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I would rather let 10000 guilty men go free than convict a single innocent man. Who among us is truly righteous? | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
I say if you can PROVE absolutely 100 percent without any doubt that someone did the crime. than I am for the death penalty. Otherwise I am not. I know of someone that spent two years in prison falsely accused of a crime. Was later exonerated and set free. He hasn't been the same, lost his family, job and what life he had before. Thank god he wasn't on the "fast track" for a death penalty offense | ||
| Torquehd |
I would rather let 10000 guilty men go free than convict a single innocent man. Who among us is truly righteous? No one is righteous, no not one. However, 10,000 guilty rapists and murderers to one innocent person - i would not make such a bold statement. Take, for instance, war. If we slay thousands of enemy troops, it is going to cost the lives of innocent people. While you can't put a pricetag on a human life, you must also accept that there is going to be a margin of error in victory. All you can do, is the best that you can do. That's why we have a judicial system. It can only do the best it can do. Were I falsely convicted and sentenced to death, I'm certain I would protest my conviction and sentence, right up until my dying breath. However, I highly doubt I would be willing to say, "free 10,000 rapists and criminals INSTEAD of condemning one innocent person". | ||
| Pwnzor |
How can you possibly compare a war to the conviction of an innocent man? The innocent man in this scenario is not being caught in the crossfire, he is not collateral damage. He is convicted by 12 people, a judge, and an entirely corrupted "legal" system. These aren't even apples and oranges, these are grains of sand and interstellar bodies. The innocents killed in warfare at least have a theoretical chance to get the hell out of the way before being killed. The man wrongly convicted is confined and chained before his accusers. I would rather nobody be incarcerated wrongly, even if it meant emptying every prison on earth. Of course, in my world, everybody is ARMED and there is very little crime. That's a conversation for a different thread. We will have to agree to disagree here, and I respect all your opinions. | ||
| Rick_a |
Kill 'em all and let God sort them out?  | ||
| Torquehd |
While the erroneous execution of an innocent man is by no means a good thing, it is a thing I am willing to accept in small percentages, if necessary to improve the overall safety for the majority. The system isn't perfect, but we can only do the best we can do with what we've got. Turning the prisons upside down and freeing everyone so not one innocent man would remain, would be a VERY BAD choice. It is similar to war in that innocent people die, and in both cases, that is a fact that you must be willing to accept. No conversion is 100% efficient. There will always be a loss associated with gain. Even if you are not willing to accept it, society as a whole is better because of the systems we have in place. Even if that means the occasional innocent man is executed. There is a Chinese saying, "kill the monkey to frighten the chicken". The execution of criminals is exactly what this saying is referring to. I'm certain that the fact that we have a death penalty is enough to keep a percentage of would-be murderers at bay. Look at this from a numbers analysis. If the fear of the death penalty keeps one would-be murderer from killing one person, yet our judicial system erroneously executes one innocent man, that is a one for one tradeoff. You're breaking even at that point. If the fear of the death penalty prevents the death of a dozen, a hundred, so on and so forth, while only allowing one or two innocent men to be erroneously executed, well, the numbers speak for themselves. You can not have a perfect system. All you can do is the best you can do with what you have. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I think you ought to pose these theoreticals to an innocent who is condemned to die, get their opinion on the subject. I don't agree that society is better because of the systems we have in place. I have a pretty good perspective on how the prison system works. I'm just one guy, and I respect your opinion. | ||
| Torquehd |
Would you propose an alternative? | ||
| Pwnzor |
I already have. Another solution to mitigate government sanctioned murder would be to abolish the death penalty. That last one, at least, would give the system time to have new evidence presented and possibly exonerate the individual... as we are seeing happen with greater frequency as time goes on. I don't expect anything to change. I know that in my own case, the arresting officer lied in his initial written report and he was allowed 30 days by the judge to amend and refile his statement and present new charges. If you or I were to file a false police report, we would be punished with thousands of dollars in fines, and at least a year in prison. | ||
| Sifo |
Having had a family member raped and murdered, I think I may have a somewhat unique perspective on this too. Illinois did not go for the death penalty in our situation. They did get a sentence that was over 100 years though. Little did we know that this killer would be released in 13 years. Little did we know that this 13 year time frame was about average for a convicted murderer in Illinois. Without going into details, there was evidence that pointed to this person with the certainty of finger prints. There was also a very long list of circumstantial details that pointed toward his guilt to. There was virtually zero doubt that this was the killer. With science providing more positive proof of having the right person in custody, I have a hard time using that science as a basis for going soft on the penalties. Illinois recently did exactly that with it's death row inmates. Using a single case where DNA evidence provided doubt in a case, not proof of innocence, but simply doubt of guilt, they tossed all death sentences in Illinois. I have to agree with Torquehd that the small potential of executing an innocent tends to outweigh the realities of letting animals roam the streets. The next best thing IMO is very lenient self defense/gun laws. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Sifo, The prison system, the parole/probation system, the government, are all FUBAR. My wife was a victim of rape. My youngest son was a victim of his 4th grade teacher. My wife's attacker never got any jail time. My son's attacker was released after 11 years on a 46 year sentence. These facts do not change my opinions. edit: misspelled a word (Message edited by pwnzor on July 11, 2014) | ||
| Sifo |
Pwnzor, as you have said, I respect your opinion. I consider it an informed one. We will have to agree to disagree. I just thought it was worth adding my experience to the conversation for those who are less decided. No doubt that the entire system is pretty FUBAR. | ||
| Torquehd |
I guess there is one alternative I'm perfectly OK with, but it is dependent upon there being enough upright criminals in correctional facilities. A friend of mine, when he was a little boy, was touched by a grown man. My friend told someone, the man was convicted, and put into prison. Little did the man know that my friend's father was in the very same prison. A short while later, the man was dead. That is a true story. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Sifo, your input is highly valued by me, and I am sure by others as well. I wish our legal system wasn't so totally jacked up. I'd be all for the death penalty in certain cases, but I just don't have enough faith in Mankind to mete out these types of judgements. My faith is in God, and I believe that our perception of time clouds our vision. Nobody gets out alive, and none can escape the Creator's wrath. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm on record as despising the current "lethal injection" process as inhumane and torture. An anesthetic, a drug to paralyze, ( to keep them from writhing in agony ) and a drug to burn in their veins giving them a massive and massively painful heart attack. Don't forget to use an alcohol swab first. Insane. I have no idea who cam up with this Lethal injection idea. Supposedly someone who wanted a more humane form of execution.... total fail. Must have been a sadistic psychopath. If you want to drug them off the planet just use an Opiate. Morphine, Heroin, whatever. Proven lethal and painless. They sleep, and stop breathing and the heart stops. I suppose as a substitute for the Electric Chair, a machine invented by Thomas Edison to discredit Tesla, which has a long record of failures and incidents, like setting the prisoner on fire, Lethal injection is logical. Don't want to tie oxen to the limbs and quarter them anymore, so we use a wood chipper. As to the Death Penalty itself... I'm opposed on a number of grounds, and can argue them with logic and passion. If anyone cares to hear them. But I also firmly believe there are folk I chose not to share the planet with. The OP's example is a very good one. There's also the moral grounds that the Romans used. With the exception of sentences into slavery ( to be worked to death ) Rome was not big on prison sentences, and didn't build a lot of prisons. They believed a Citizen should not be confined. If it was a minor offense, a minor stay in jail and fines. A major offense got you dead, and good riddance. A little black and white in today's nuanced world maybe. Stern but fair. Contrast to America where having an "illegal drug" in your car can get you the same long prison sentence as Murder. That's just crazy. And people that murder multiple times...... because they are released.... even after killing again. Crazy. And I admit to being on record to saying that rapists caught in the act should never make it to jail. He beat himself up then jumped off a cliff? Thanks for reporting it, have a nice day. I can understand having a one sided belief on this matter, I have a multi sided opinion. And am willing to listen to your arguments. Me, I'd just take all the child rape murderers and send them to Iran. Tell the Iranians' they slandered the Prophet, and tattoo their blasphemies to their foreheads.... Just a thought, and not a worthy one. | ||
| Blake |
Frank (Froggy), Michael Morton is a friend. He married our office manager last year. Amazing man. Unjustly imprisoned by an idiot jury for 25 years on a purely circumstantial case while the his wife's brutal murderer was free to brutally murder again. During that time, the corrupt DA who concealed evidence that would have exonerated Michael became a judge. He recently served a mere 10 days in jail, and was disbarred. Not much justice there. CNN carried Michael's story. It's on Netflix now. Excellent documentary... http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0019VM63I | ||
| Aesquire |
....I am willing to accept in small percentages, if necessary to improve the overall safety for the majority. Certainly no system is perfect, but how LARGE a percentage are you willing to accept? Illinois IIRC had a 16% error rate... ( nice clean phrase, eh? How about "we falsely convicted 1 in every 6 men on Death Row."? ) Is 1 honest man killed out of 7 an acceptable number? Not to me. I really wouldn't like to let 1000 guilty go to protect 1 innocent, but I don't want to kill 160 innocents to kill 840 guilty. I'm sure other, less corrupt states than Obama's adopted one have lower percentages. I have suggested that after conviction that a Capitol Crime prisoner be given the option of "truth verification" by otherwise forbidden means. Not waterboarding or torture, but drugs and brain scans. Optional only. Don't want to? Fine. Your execution will proceed by normal means. Take the Option, If found innocent, you go home. If found Guilty, we hand you a grenade and slam the door on your autoflush bangproof final contemplation chamber. Declared dead, and given last rites. After the Bang, your remains feed the gardens of remembrance for victims of crime. My reasoning is that there must be a truth detection technology better than the easily defeated ( and easily abused ) "lie detectors" used today by police and the State Dept. Better yet address the causes of crime. Bad Politicians. And kill THEM. Sorry, just dreaming. | ||
| Sifo |
Illinois IIRC had a 16% error rate... Not exactly true. Very few of the death row inmates were ever released as not guilty after the overturn of the death penalty here. That claim is based on 16% have had some piece of evidence (often a very minor piece) shown to be not what was claimed in the trial. It's a problem, no doubt, but doesn't suddenly make someone innocent (Granted, in some cases it can). Prosecutors, police, etc. should be open to prosecution and sever penalty if found to have engaged in purposely falsifying evidence. Actually, so should defense attorneys. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Prosecutors, police, etc. should be open to prosecution and sever penalty if found to have engaged in purposely falsifying evidence. Like the deputy who arrested me. Fine him $10000 and let him go to the county for a year. Open dorm, no yard time. | ||
| Sifo |
Fine him $10000 and let him go to the county for a year. I would suggest basing it on the severity of the crime they are falsifying. A year in jail for falsifying a speeding ticket is too extreme. A year for setting someone up on death row is far too light. | ||
| Pwnzor |
In California where I was convicted, the minimum sentence is 1 year PLUS $10k in fines. Plus court costs and booking fees, comes to a grand total of $11,600. Corrupting the legal system is never a minor offense in my eyes. Lie to the judge, he knocks your dick in the dirt. If you're a private citizen. If you're a cop and you get caught, then you get to rewrite your story while your victim sits in jail. | ||
| Ratbuell |
The penalty (or POSSIBILITY of the penalty) needs to fit the crime. Deterrence. If (and unfortunately due to our "legal system", this is definitely the case nowadays) criminals think they can get away with it...they do it. If they see their "comrades" caught, convicted, and killed by the system...they may think twice. If they see their comrades die "in the line of" committing their crimes without trial...they WILL think twice. Read into that as you will.... | ||
| Torquehd |
Ratbuell, I like your perspective. | ||
| Aesquire |
re: "caught convicted and killed by the system" It's been long shown that execution doesn't really make criminals think twice. Public hangings of pickpockets just made for a target rich environment for other pickpockets in England. That WAS a long time ago, so perhaps criminals are smarter now? We seem to have far less pickpockets and far more muggers than back in Olde England. The general trend in crime is tracking down in direct proportion to concealed carry permits. So your "in the line of" comment IS demonstrably true. I wonder what the numbers would show if we had vigilantes, as in the "Watchman" graphic novel & Movie. ( highly recommended! it answers the question, "what kind of weirdo dresses up in costume and goes out in the middle of the night to beat up criminals?" ) Or perhaps the "Kick Ass" comics & Movies. ( SPOILER! asks, and answers, the question, "How come nobody's ever tried to become a superhero?"..... "Dude, if anyone did that in real life they'd get their ass kicked! ) Just wondering. Don't really want crazy people getting killed in costume. |
