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Gschuette
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 01:48 pm: | 
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All valid concerns and I see your point.
1) I won't buy this bike until I can not only afford the bike but the service. I'm willing to risk planned obsolescence because of...
2) I like experiencing new bikes. My Buell is the only bike I can't fathom selling. I'll likely pine for the latest and greatest before the KTM is a dead machine. I realize that isn't going to fly with every customer.
So the KTM is fine for me in that regard. I do share the same concerns and hope that people who enjoy working on their own bike won't be totally forsaken by the manufacturers in the near future. In the mean time I'll just have to hope the systems outlast my time spent owning the bike. I can certainly see the concern over the value of an obsolete bike. Though not wanting to lose everything, I work so I can ride motorcycles. I've never found it to be an inexpensive hobby and I don't see that changing, unfortunately. |
Gschuette
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 01:56 pm: |
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For your last part regarding the safety net. I obviously can't describe it properly. You just need to ride the bike to understand the sensation I'm trying to describe. They aren't intervening and preventing a crash from happening in every corner. They are just smoothing out a slightly harsh human input and minimizing a shock to the contact patch. Again, it's not a safety net keeping me from crashing. I really don't know how to describe it. I read about it and was excited to experience the electronics. Even with all the reading, the actual experience was still eye opening. You won't understand my position until you've experienced it yourself. I promise the electronics won't fail on a quick demo ride. Just try it before you knock it. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 03:41 pm: |
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quote:I have these concerns because it is common to hear that a five year old computer is not worth repairing- it's easier and less expensive to just replace it.
Apples and oranges. When high end motorcycles become only a couple hundred bucks, that will happen. It currently does happen with cheap beatup used cars/bikes. Transmisson won't shift above 2nd on a rusted out 89 Corolla? Junk it and upgrade to a 92 Civic. Computers have slowly become disposable over the years, back when I started working on computers 20 years go, it was common to dump $700 to replace a smashed laptop screen on a $3000 laptop. These days, unless the laptop is high end or fairly new, I'd just recommend getting a new one and then copying your files over. It would be cheaper and easier than repairing the screen in many cases.
quote:Where do you take your 10, 15, 20 year old computers to be repaired now? You don't, you say?
I also do work on legacy systems on rare occasions, there are plenty of 15 year old computers out in the business world doing things behind the scenes, hell many times in front too. Many gas pumps, ATMs, and similar point of sales systems are old as dirt, but because they still work fine the companies don't invest in upgrading equipment. You are right about the costs though, it does get expensive to keep old systems running as the parts are often discontinued or premium priced due to low production.
quote:Mechanical parts are easy, electronic parts are complicated- especially when designed with proprietary systems that allow only the OEM to operate them.
Actually you would be quite surprised, it is often easier to make electronics than mechanical parts. The ECMs used on motorcycles are nothing complex, and with a little R&D an aftermarket equivalent can be made, just like an aftermarket mechanical part. There are many open source hackable projects like Raspberry Pi that are dirt cheap and very capable and adaptable, it would not be hard to turn one into an ECM that can also email you about the health of your bike.
quote:Check the BMW recall on all Dynamic ESA models
While you are there, check out the Buell recalls on rear shocks.
quote:Wait a minute, I just want to buy the part that fixes the suspension issue- how did it get so complicated?
It didn't get complicated, it is simpler than you think, and you can get the part that fixes your dynamic suspension.
quote:While facing the reality that the OEM won't work on your bike anymore, and if they could still get the electronic parts they'd exceed the value of your bike.
That could happen any day with any bike. There are many parts of the XB that are unique to the XB like isolators and drive belts. If HD stopped providing belts tomorrow, there is no practical alternative than modifying the bike to chain drive. If isolators became unobtanium, you are really screwed as there currently are no aftermarket parts. The entire fuel injection system other than the throttle body and wiring harness is available aftermarket. At least you can make a wiring harness from scratch.
quote:And again with the amazement of how often the "safety net" intercedes when riding one of these new "wonder bikes". How on earth did you survive this long in order to ride this amazing bike that has now made motorcycling safe. It just doesn't add up.
Truth is, we haven't. greater than 99% of all vehicle accidents are due to human error. The more you take the human out of the question, the safer it becomes. All it takes is one momentary lapse in judgment or one incorrect action to end up on your ass or in the side of a car. The mistake doesn't even have to be on your part. Technology helps prevent these mistakes from happening, or reduces the consequences when they do happen. As result, the roads are getting safer by the day. Deaths, injuries, even accidents are on a downward trend. Hell I know my last bike accident could have been avoided if I had ABS to enhance my stopping ability.
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Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 04:47 pm: |
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"The more you take the human out of the question, the safer it becomes."
In this one sentence, you have eloquently expressed the crux of my issue with the path electronics are leading us down. It is a very abhorrent and foreboding mind-set for those of us with a passion for riding.
Motorcycle - human = pointless.
The upside to all of this is that the 20, 30, and 40 year old bikes we service every day in our shop will still be maintainable 30 or more years down the road. I don't see the current crop of technology-laden bikes faring as well 30 years down the line. This assumes, of course, that a human-controlled vehicle is allowed on public roads 30 years from now...
I will not go quietly. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 05:35 pm: |
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The more you take the human out of the question, the safer it becomes.
Which leads to some interesting questions. Bikers seem to want the ability to tune or even turn off these electronic aids. I understand their desires for this ability. Do they allow the same thing for some of the newer safety features on cars? I know I can turn off the traction/stability control on our Ford Escape. When I do so, am I opening myself to legal exposure by turning off these features. I understand that I am always going to be responsible for my vehicle, but can negligence be argued when someone turns off safety features? If you know our legal system, you know that question was rhetorical. |
Gschuette
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 06:05 pm: |
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I agree about the future dumbing down of personal transportation and where do we say enough? The line is obviously different for everyone. I was inclined to be more on your side until I rode this bike. I still want to have the last word in control. I don't want the bike pulling levers for me.
I think Honda is a good place to keep an eye on. They keep trying to force these god awful, unemotional two wheeled things on the market and luckily the enthusiasts are rebelling for the most part. The KTM is a world removed from a DN-01. To tune the traction control to be transparent while allowing the front wheel to hover and the back wheel to leave big darkies tells me they haven't forgotten the enthusiast.
I realize the dilemma. For example, I would like a dual clutch transmission that still has a clutch lever for feathering through lots, taking off from a dead stop, and other low speed maneuvers. I want to move the shifter and have the computer fire off a ridiculously fast shift. Another guy may want a dual clutch with no clutch lever? Who is right? No one but I am hopeful Ducati/EBR/KTm will continue to cater to the enthusiast market while Honda continues to cater to the dental hygenest who has never been on two wheels and never will, regardless of how easy a Honda is to ride.
I built that wildly analog Banshee powered supermoto. When I got off the KTM I honestly though, "Hmmm, I wonder how much someone would buy my Banshee bike for?" Take Porsche for example, read the forums and everyone who hasn't driven a 991 GT3 is bemoaning the loss of the manual amond other things. Everyone who has driven the car is emerging with a whole new respect for Porsche engineering. I think it will be obvious we have gone too far when you get out of a GT3 or off the KTM and no longer have an enormous grin on your face. The KTM has had me smiling non stop for days. I'd say that is a pretty big tell for how good the bike is. I've ridden a few bikes that didn't make me smile. If the bike doesn't make me smile I know something is amiss or needs to change. |
Torquehd
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 06:07 pm: |
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Motorcycle - human = pointless
Apparently you've never seen Terminator 2. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 06:59 pm: |
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>>>"The more you take the human out of the question, the safer it becomes."
Why does NASA put Astronauts in the Shuttle. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 07:06 pm: |
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Because unmanned space flight doesn't capture the attention of the public. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 07:13 pm: |
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I rode the KTM 1190 Adventure standard model. Hands down, best motorcycle I've had the pleasure to ride
Meh.... took one for a spin at Mid-Ohio today. It was a pretty nice demo but my chestnuts felt like they were roasting on a open fire.
So far I am still liking the FJR the best of all the bikes I have ridden since October, 2009
I hope someone shows up at the WV Buell Rally on a RX or SX that will let me take it for a spin. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 07:40 pm: |
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I can't afford any of them so I'll just take a seat in the bleachers on this one but if I could it would be an AX if it looks like a Uly |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 10:46 pm: |
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Some reading for some of you luddites.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/17/off-road-brak ing-test-pro-level-off-road-racer-against-ktm-abs/
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx
http://www.superstreetbike.com/features/mythbusters-abs-equipped-bike-good-rider-doesnt-need-abs
(Message edited by cataract2 on July 11, 2014) |
Darth_villar
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 11:29 pm: |
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He gained slightly less than 4% stopping over the non-abs stops. I would expect there to be little or no advantage on pavement (dry conditions).
But 4% is definitely better than nothing.
ABS is one of those electronic aids that have the potential to help a rider in SHTF situations, I believe it is a good idea for most riders. |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2014 - 07:30 am: |
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Keep in mind, that's a pro rider who is levels above all of us. He gained ~4% improvement over his own skills. For the rest of us the improvement will be greater.
(Message edited by cataract2 on July 12, 2014) |
Sifo
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2014 - 09:12 am: |
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Also keep in mind that beating the ABS took multiple attempts by a pro level rider. The ABS system delivers more consistency without practice. In a panic stop situation you are likely to not deliver your best performance either. The computer doesn't know panic. |
Gschuette
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2014 - 02:40 pm: |
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On a track I'd prefer a lack of electronics to continually hone my skills. In GP and Superbikes I'd love to see the rules change to get rid of electronics. Just man and a 250hp bike to wrestle.
The road is different. I enjoy a spirited pace but I also enjoy sleeping in my bed over a hospital bed and simply being alive. We are all obviously still alive to discuss motorcycles yet many are not. I'd rather remain alive and swallow some pride. If a computer will help me in a few crappy situations I am fine with that especially when they are so transparent and fun!
Trouble is a ban on racing electronics might slow the development of street electronics. Maybe not though. The KTM isn't too closely related to a racer and obviously has incredible electronics.
Anyway, as long as the analog feelings remain and I end my ride with a smile, I am fine with an increasingly digital bike. |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2014 - 05:18 pm: |
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You know, here's a place they've been hammering this to death.
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=989210 |
Torquehd
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2014 - 01:53 am: |
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I heard awhile back that there was a simpler bike in the works, an inside source sent me a spy shot. It's called the EBR 490 PX. It's carbureted and gets 70+ MPG.
I'd ride it! |
Strokizator
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 12:52 am: |
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"So far I am still liking the FJR the best of all the bikes I have ridden since October, 2009"
Funny you should say that. I sold my 990 ADV and bought an FJR last year. Currently sitting in a campground in Tok, AK half way through an 8000 mile trip. The FJR is nice but not exciting. Stuff that was dicey on it would have been a lot of fun on the KTM. I've got just one more motorcycle in me and I'm waiting for the AX before I make my move. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 07:52 am: |
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I wait and hope the AX is the be all end all.
Is that to high of a expectation? |
Biffdotorg
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2014 - 05:08 pm: |
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That PX photoshop is pretty bad. It's a nice try, but no where near as good as the 1125X we have seen all over as the prototype of the 1190ax. |
Torquehd
| | Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2014 - 12:06 am: |
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It ain't photoshop. It's MS paint shop.
It wasn't intended to be a masterpiece, it was intended to be a visual aid used to make a point.
As my instructors at MMI used to say, "These are the "good ol' days" of motorcycles". Gone are the days of drum brakes up front and oil-burning headlights. Gone are the days of points, carburetors, and pushrods (for the most part).
Even chainsaws and lawnmowers use computer programming these days. And the products perform all the better for it. The tradeoff is that it's harder to work on, but I believe the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. |
Gschuette
| | Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2014 - 08:01 pm: |
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Met a guy with a 1290 Super Duke today and I was drooling all over that bike too. Looks better than the adventure and is faster but I'd still take the adventure because those long fast paced days on unfamiliar roads would be a nice experience on that bike. |
Biffdotorg
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2014 - 01:56 pm: |
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No offense torquehd, didn't want to piss on your handywork at all.
I was trying to figure out if you were joking, or if you truly believed that the photo you posted was the "spy shot" you had received from the "inside source"
So did you actually get a spy shot worth posting? |
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