| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
This is kind of a disturbing story... Feds accused of leaving trail of wreckage after Nevada ranch standoff I'll hit some highlights...
So we now have a crisis, created largely by the federal government when they basically told these Nevada ranchers that not only is their way of life over, but their multi-generation investment in their ranches is not close to worthless. Their lives have just been destroyed by the government. Cliven Bundy decided not to cave into the government however. The government is claiming about $1.1 million is owed to them. This is a civil, not criminal issue BTW. They are willing to spend almost that much to destroy what Bundy has left. That's absolutely insane! More recently though, they are claiming $640 million in damages is owed by Bundy. That too is absolutely insane! There's no possible way you could ever justify $640 million in damages from a few cattle grazing on open land in less than a years time. Clearly the federal government is throwing it's full weight against a family business that they want gone. The funny thing is, Bundy is probably no worse off for taking the path he chose, rather than packing it in and doing I don't know what he would have been qualified for. Possibly being a government hired range warrior? He really was put into to a lose/lose situation by the government. I do wonder why. I've seen first hand how the government pressures land owners when they want your land. I'm in the middle of it right now. The government works at a pace that most people aren't used to seeing though. They like to suffocate family land owners over the course of generations. My personal fight is in it's second generation. Bundy's kids are also involved in this dispute. There came a time in my area in MI that they wanted a certain tract of land, and things did get ugly for the hold out land owners. My dad knew some of these folks personally. They were forced out being told that it was to preserve the land. The land was then quickly flipped, for a huge profit to a developer to build a golf/ski resort. I'm willing to bet that Bundy is about the last hold out for something that the government wants to do that has nothing to do with preservation of the land. By the time it's known however, the Bundy name will be long forgotten. What I really don't understand here is those who always claim to be about the hardworking little guy. That's exactly what the Bundy's are. If they were being crushed by some big business (which I would at this point just about bet the farm on), the liberals would be screaming bloody murder. What was the Occupy Wall Street thing all about if not for the family business operator? The Bundy family is going through the grinder for the sake of the 1% type that you so vilify. Sometimes they deserve vilification. This is one of those times. I really hope that all of this makes some people think a bit. | ||
| Gschuette |
Aesquire, forgive me but I believe you have contradicted yourself. First you say, "I'm not a fan of the usual tax protester using buzz words to justify not paying taxes." Then "Surrounding their house with snipers and tanks while you kill their animals should not be an acceptable pattern of behavior. Period fracking dot." You think you have a legal option when the government, born and bred of the taxes you first said cannot be avoided due to a simple disagreement with a policy, is aiming a gun at you? The same government funded by your taxes and inflationary deficit spending is armed to the freaking teeth and their first reaction is force, not due process? You think you stand snowball's chance in hell against that government? As a motorcyclist who knows his rights regarding roadside checkpoints, searches, etc. and a former Wells Fargo employee who was in a legal dispute with that company, my confidence in the system is shot. He who has the most money wins. Can't afford to keep paying ungodly amounts to your lawyer? You lose. Didn't arrive in court with a shiny badge, shaved head, and a mustache? You lose. The book was long ago thrown out and some totalitarian monster has arrived in it's place. It is being paid for by you with taxes and inflation. Give me all the damn buzzwords out there because I am sick of being charged out the rear for big government program after big government policy that I don't agree with or see any benefit from. So what option do we have left? What is fair and why should we pay taxes on things we don't support for whatever reason? Also, Perot had some interesting suggestions on tax issues back in the 90s elections. I'm not endorsing him just saying there is more than just, pay your taxes and abide. The fear of shaking things up that permeates the culture in the U.S. drives me crazy. There are countless options out there that don't involve runaway government or continuing to feed that runaway government. Sorry for rambling, I'm really really unhappy with the world we live in these days. I'm not trying to personally attack you, just trying to illustrate that the options the common man has available to him anymore are very few. | ||
| Blake |
The Bundy ranch area was designated as a mitigation area for the solar industrial complex. That was straight of the BLM web site. Not sure what it means, probably that enough percentage of the property is left undeveloped, kinda like the whole carbon credits scheme for industry that uses large amounts of energy. The grazing rights fees were by contract to be used to maintain the property for cattle grazing. Instead the feds used it to support tortoise sanctuary, including the draconian declaration that no more than 150 head be permitted to graze on the tract.. So Bundy did his own maintenance on the property and ceased paying BLM due to their breach of contract. Then the issue went before a federal judge, who works for the same boss as the BLM, the executive branch of the federal govt. The king doesn't want us using his property. All such federal land ought be turned over to the states. | ||
| Sifo |
The Bundy ranch area was designated as a mitigation area for the solar industrial complex. This somehow seems like an appropriate time to add... FIFTYS! | ||
| Sifo |
Funny thing, but my families land in the "Bow Lakes" area used to be ranch land. I've pulled up miles of old barbed wire from that land. We've also planted thousands of trees, which oddly, the government now tells us we aren't allowed to cut. Yeah, that seems right! | ||
| Thumper1203 |
STG "Bundy ranch, what you aren't being told" youtube video taken down... someone must have been "talked to".....ahem it was going viral.. FIFTYS? | ||
| Rick_a |
Interesting insight into mindsets on both sides: | ||
| Reindog |
"What You are not Being Told" is available at this link at least for now: April 16, 2014, 9:03PM PDT. All Americans, left and right, are in danger because of an exponentially expanding Federal Government that is increasingly being selective about what laws to enforce. If you disagree, left or right, you will be denied the Rule of Law and will be crushed with extreme prejudice. A roped in "First Amendment Zone" indeed. Wake up and join the Conservative movement. True Americans who understand and believe in the Constitution of the United States of America, left and right, can live together, but we must say NO in unison to the growing despotism that is engulfing us a little bit more each and every day. You know what I say is true. | ||
| Imonabuss |
This is a huge deal, and yet you see little on media. "First Amendment Zones" indeed. The zone is the 50 f'ng states of America. And Obama's brownshirts equipped with military weapons (which they used on bulls and water tanks since they weren't yet allowed to shoot the right wingers they wanted). "Bureau of Land Management" Kinda like "Work Camps" in an odd and terrifying way. This has to turn around soon or it is going to turn real ugly, folks. | ||
| Thumper1203 |
Thx for the find, Tom(Reindog) "left and right, can live together, but we must say NO in unison to the growing despotism that is engulfing us a little bit more each and every day" ..very well said Here is another video with good information to share.. (Message edited by thumper1203 on April 17, 2014) | ||
| Court |
If folks . . on BOTH sides of the aisle . . don't see what's coming . . . God save them. The same folks who are now espousing that Bundy just can't warp the law as he sees fit are the ones who have modified, amended, delayed and abate the ACA on 25 occasions. Folks really need to be talking this u0, mobilizing folks to vote. If we don't end this through the Constitutional process it's going to get ugly. The "First Amendment Area" . . the cage . . . was astounding. At the same time, I watch a bunch of foreign students, the ones you are paying for (I mean paying for everything) with your tax dollars, protesting silly stuff at Columbia yesterday. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Conservatives (which I distinguish from Republicans) are learning one thing from the left... The "walks like a duck / quacks like a duck" philosophy. Historically, I'm not sure Bundy would have had too much support because he didn't follow all the rules. Conservatives, now that the rule of law seems to be "whatever the hell the executive branch says they decided it is today", now aren't sweating the details as much. If it feels like government overreach, it will be treated like government overreach, and people aren't going to let details get in the way. Which obviously, is a really bad thing. If this goes south, which it seems we are very close to, I place the blame squarely at those that have consistently undermined the rule of law. This has been a creeping problem for the last 200 years, but I think the Obama administration has done more damage to the rule of law in 7 years than everyone else has done in previous 200+ years. If the country wants to pursue liberal policies, and we as a country elect liberals, then I think liberal policies are still wrong but we as a country have decided to pursue them. But they *must* be within a very strict reading of the constitution, and they must be fully funded by current funds. If people say they want something, but won't put down cash to achieve it, they didn't really want it. Debt is simply selling our children into economic slavery. It may make sense in a world war situation (where the alternative for our children is economic *and* literal slavery), but it sure as hell is not justified for "social reform". | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ditto the weaponization of the IRS. Before, it would be very hard to get conservative support for a lawless tax revolt. Conservatives would worked hard to change the law to fix the problem. But now that the IRS has been weaponized, then the rules don't really matter, as they are arbitrarily created and enforced for goals that have nothing to do with taxation. Again, this could become lawless anarchy in response to lawless tyranny, which always means a huge number of people will die, after which point the rule of law will be reestablished as a constitutional republic (NOT a democracy or communism) until tyranny gradually returns... I pray to God we can elect a lawful government that will clean up the mess without bloodshed. I don't think it is impossible. But like Court said, both the left and the right need to put a fight against against tyranny and for the rule of law in front of their own agendas. | ||
| Sifo |
Both of the above videos pretty well match point by point what I've been saying has been going on not only with the Bundy Family, but my own family too. Having lived it for most of my life, it's entirely too obvious. I can only hope that it's obvious to those who haven't lived this for 40 years. I feel like Cityxslicker talking about BO care here but, FIFTYS! | ||
| Sifo |
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| Sifo |
So what's wrong with this picture?  War on the West: Why More Bundy Standoffs Are Coming | ||
| Sifo |
So why is Harry Reid even involved in this? When did be become part of the executive branch? His involvement is in itself an overstep of his authority. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/17/harry-r eid-labels-supporters-of-rancher-cliven-bundy-dome stic-terrorists-reveals-federal-task-force-being-a ssembled/
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| Ourdee |
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| S2t_bama |
I can think of no reason for this NOTAM, other than to restrict access by the press. No civilian aircraft could pose any threat, given the military hardware the government has in place there. Quite transparent of this administration. It is certainly clear to me. | ||
| Aesquire |
Sure there's a reason. Predator drones have poor collision avoidance. | ||
| Oldog |
Good find Ourdee Didn't Obama brag about killing people with drones? the Bundy's may want to stay with their children or friends off of the ranch. chilling....... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I doubt it was about drones and think it has more to do with preventing a "Berlin Airlift" resupply from happening while the feds block the roads. Perhaps it's also for keeping news helicopters out. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&load=9624&mpid=105 Gschuette, Sorry, I realized that I would come off contradictory and wishy washy. In part because I don't know the specifics ( although i am learning them ) of this case. On the one hand, those people ( not talking about Bundy ) who declare themselves "Sovereign" something or other and claim that they don't have to pay taxes are kooks. I'm no fonder of the insanity that is US tax law than anyone else. AND I object to using taxes as political tools. ( NOT talking here about the IRS abuse of power in applying the law. That is simply Criminal and the whole bunch deserve free lodging in a Federal Pen. Period. ) But... That's pretty much what Congress does, they play with the tax code to give those who bribe them favor. This goes back to when taxes were taken in kind , and you actually gave some of your wheat to the tax collector so he could build Pyramids. Chunky stepped ones. ( waaaaaaaayy before the Pharaohs ) Unless you want to round up Congress and exile them to a Desert Island Reality Show Hunger Games Slaughter Fest on Pay per View... We're stuck with that. ( My personal preference, you may have a better idea. Probably involving Iron maidens? ) If the hippies had to pay for Vietnam, I had to pay for Bosnia, you have to pay for Afghanistan. Bummer. Just works that way. Feel free to vote the bums out. In fact, I will join you 99% of the time in telling people to vote for the jerk not in office, since HE hasn't ripped you off, yet. So, rule of law. Use the system, petition your Congressmen, blah, blah, the system sucks, deal with it. OTOH. You send tanks and snipers to a guys house to collect back taxes? Destroy his work and threaten EVERYONE with imprisonment and death if they don't Obey the Whim of bureaucrats.... that's not right. If, and I repeat If, Harry Reid is responsible for this ... another land bribery rippoff ( for which, being a Congressman, and above the law, he never gets in real trouble over ) Harry should go to prison. After a fair trial. Not sure when those are going to come back. | ||
| Ljm |
In some ways, those who Sarah Palin watches from her porch are refreshing. They at least are open and direct about their empire building and restriction of freedoms. Here in the USSA (increasingly the United Socialist States of America), it is hidden in the guise of tax codes, Obamacare, gun laws, judicial appointments to selectively enforce laws, increasing restrictions on freedoms through elected leaders allowing payoffs to themselves in the guise of campaign freedoms, etc. We are watching the last free empire disappear. | ||
| Ourdee |
The simplest statement I have is, "No Taxation Without Representation". This thread has brought up valid facts, theories, and passionate opinions. Americans will tolerate quite a bit of injustice up to a point. We are watching the last free empire disappear. I long to hear the empire is dead, long live the republic. It would be nice to reset the laws and live in a utopia of how it should be. I only have One hope. Would you choose the red pill or the blue pill? There will be hell to pay with either choice. The gubment already got rid of quaaludes "quiet interlude" (methaqualone). "Gene Haislip, the former head of the Chemical Control Division of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), told the PBS documentary program Frontline: "We beat 'em." By working with governments and manufacturers around the world, the DEA was able to halt production and, Haislip says, "eliminated the problem"." If there is a need for methaqualone, you can still get it in South Africa under the name Mandrax. Janis said,"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose, Nothing don't mean nothing honey if it ain't free, now now." I,d like to relate a story of one drunk man. Please, draw from it what you want. It wasn't me. I only observed him as I stood behind the woman. I was on the seen of a police woman responding to a disorderly conduct call. She knocked on the door of the intoxicated mans room. He answered and reached out with one finger touching her on the nose while saying slowly, "You Ain't No Thing" and slipping his finger down off of her nose. He then quickly shut and locked the door. | ||
| Sifo |
Talking about taxation in conjunction with this case pretty much misses the mark. The money he "owes" isn't even a tax, it's a grazing fee. Look at the bigger picture though. Back in the early '90s there were 53 cattle ranchers using those grazing lands. Suddenly the BLM said they would only allow grazing fees for 150 head of cattle. That's only 3 head per ranch! That's not a fee. That's a notice that your industry has just been shut down in that entire area. Even accepting the shut down, these ranchers are faced with the fact that their ranches, that they have a small to large fortune invested in, are now almost worthless. Who in their right mind is going to buy a cattle ranch in an area where ranching has just been made de facto illegal? I have no idea how many hundreds of jobs those 53 ranches represents. It's certainly a lot more than 53 though. There's a huge part of this story that isn't being told at this point. I would really like to know the whole story. Cliven Bundy decided that if he's not given the choice to legally continue doing what his family has done legally for over 100 years, he might as well do so illegally. The issue wasn't his not paying grazing fees. The issue is that he wasn't allowed to pay grazing fees for a herd of cattle that will support a ranching business. He was a law abiding rancher that has been turned into a criminal by an appointed government agency. This appointed government agency isn't doing what's best for Nevada, much less Nevada ranchers. They are doing what's best for the politicians that get money from a wide variety of political lobby groups. The groups these lobbyists represent didn't give a crap about local ranchers. Most of them want open land to be restricted from almost any sort of use, and they will use any excuse they can to achieve this goal. Enter the desert tortoise, that wound up being so "protected" by the BLM that the BLM has slaughtered hundreds of them in recent years. Try putting yourself in the ranchers boots and ask yourself if you would be pissed off. This is government insanity that killed off an industry that feeds the people of all things. We should all be pissed of at this. I can't see any good that has come from these BLM decisions, but I can certainly see a lot of harm that has been done. We need to demand better! | ||
| Sifo |
As I've been pointing out, this is about much more than one rancher in NV. Western lawmakers gather in Utah to talk federal land takeover | ||
| Blake |
Well stated Tom? You beat me to posting that same hyperlink. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57836973-90/ utah-lands-lawmakers-federal.html.csp | ||
| Reindog |
Maybe YOU are a domestic terrorist? * Do you believe in the Constitution of the United States of America? * Do you believe that a smaller Federal government is better just as most of our Founding Fathers believed? * Do you believe that the Bill of Rights emanate from the Second Amendment as our Founding Fathers understood? * Do you believe that First Amendment Zones are not a small roped in area but encompasses all of America? * Do you believe in the due process of law? Courts, liens, and due process are preferable to armed government thugs? * Do you believe that the BLM response to the current crisis in Nevada is shall we say "overplayed". * Do you believe in equal opportunity rather than equal outcomes? * Do you believe that Benghazi was not caused by a Youtube video and that the pResident should not have gone on a fund raising tour the following day? * Do you believe that the IRS has been weaponized? * Do you believe that 9/11 was a terrorist attack and not a "man made disaster?" * Do you believe that the first Ft. Hood shootings was something quite more than a workplace incident? * Do you believe that the current Administration qualifies for the Guinness Book of World Records for lying? * Do you believe that the current Justice Department is not color blind? * Do you believe that Obamacare is ripping apart and destroying the best medical care system in the world? * Do you NOT believe in Socialism and Communism? I MIGHT BE A DOMESTIC TERRORIST, SENATOR REID. COME AND GET ME. | ||
| Sifo |
Speaking of domestic terrorists, here's some real ones...  |
