| Author | Message | ||
     Rocket_in_uk |
http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html INTRODUCTION In October 1992, the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, which has Senate oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act (EAA), held an inquiry into the U.S. export policy to Iraq prior to the Persian Gulf War. During that hearing it was learned that U.N. inspectors identified many U.S. - manufactured items exported pursuant to licenses issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce that were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and missile delivery system development programs. On June 30, 1993, several veterans testified at a hearing of the Senate Committee on Armed Services. There, they related details of unexplained events that took place during the Persian Gulf War which they believed to be chemical warfare agent attacks. After these unexplained events, many of the veterans present reported symptoms consistent with exposure to a mixed agent attack. Then, on July 29, 1993, the Czech Minister of Defense announced that a Czechoslovak chemical decontamination unit had detected the chemical warfare agent Sarin in areas of northern Saudi Arabia during the early phases of the Gulf War. They had attributed the detections to fallout from coalition bombing of Iraqi chemical warfare agent production facilities. In August 1993, Senate Banking Committee Chairman Donald W. Riegle Jr. began to research the possibility that there may be a connection between the Iraqi chemical, biological, and radiological warfare research and development programs and a mysterious illness which was then being reported by thousands of returning Gulf War veterans. In September 1993, Senator Riegle released a staff report on this issue and introduced an amendment to the Fiscal Year 1994 National Defense Authorization Act that provided preliminary funding for research of the illnesses and investigation of reported exposures. When this first staff report was released by Senator Riegle, the estimates of the number of veterans suffering from these unexplained illnesses varied from hundreds, according to the Department of Defense, to thousands, according to the Department of Veterans Affairs. It is now believed that tens of thousands of U.S. veterans are suffering from a myriad of symptoms collectively labelled either Gulf War Syndrome, Persian Gulf Syndrome, or Desert War Syndrome. Hundreds and possibly thousands of servicemen and women still on active duty are reluctant to come forward for fear of losing their jobs and medical care. These Gulf War veterans are reporting muscle and joint pain, memory loss, intestinal and heart problems, fatigue, nasal congestion, urinary urgency, diarrhea, twitching, rashes, sores, and a number of other symptoms. They began experiencing these multiple symptoms during and after -- often many months after -- their tour of duty in the Gulf. A number of the veterans who initially exhibited these symptoms have died since returning from the Gulf. Perhaps most disturbingly, members of veteran's families are now suffering these symptoms to a debilitating degree. The scope and urgency of this crisis demands an appropriate response. This investigation into Gulf War Syndrome, which was initiated by the Banking Committee under the direction of Chairman Riegle, has uncovered a large body of evidence linking the symptoms of the syndrome to the exposure of Gulf War participants to chemical and biological warfare agents, chemical and biological warfare pre-treatment drugs, and other hazardous materials and substances. Since the release of the first staff report on September 9, 1993, this inquiry has continued. Thousands of government officials, scientists, and veterans have been interviewed or consulted, and additional evidence has been compiled. This report will detail the findings of this ongoing investigation. Since the Banking Committee began its inquiry, the position of the Department of Defense regarding the possible causes of Gulf War Syndrome has altered only when challenged with evidence that is difficult to dispute. Yet, despite the vast resources of the Department of Defense, several independent and congressional inquiries with limited resources continue to uncover additional evidence of hazardous exposures and suspicious events. The Department of Defense, when first approached regarding this issue by Committee staff, contended that there was no evidence that U.S. forces were exposed to chemical warfare agents. However, during a telephone interview on September 7, 1993 with Walter Reed Army Medical Center commander Major General Ronald Blanck, Committee staff was informed that the issue of chemical and biological warfare agent exposure had not been explored because it was the position of "military intelligence" that such exposure never occurred. Then, during a November 10, 1993 press briefing at the Pentagon, the Department of Defense acknowledged that the Czech government did detect chemical agents in the Southwest Asia theater of operations. After analyzing the results of the Czech report, the Department of Defense concluded that the detections were unrelated to the "mysterious health problems that have victimized some of our veterans." According to former Secretary of Defense Les Aspin, in some cases the wind was wrong and the distances too great to suggest a link. For instance, Seabees serving to the south and east of the detection site have complained of persistent health problems; but according to the Pentagon, the wind was blowing in the other direction at the time of the detections and the concentrations were too low to do harm over that kind of a distance. The fact is, no one has ever suggested that there was a link between the Czech detections and what occurred during the early morning hours of January 19, 1991 near the Port of Jubayl. (These two events will be described in detail in Chapter 2.) Former Defense Secretary Aspin said at the briefing that this incident could not have been from the Coalition bombings of the Iraqi chemical weapons facilities because the winds were blowing to the northwest. Yet according to available Soviet documents, the dispersal of chemical agents and other hazardous substances is controlled by other factors in addition to surface wind direction and velocity, such as topography, temperature, precipitation, vertical temperature gradient, and atmospheric humidity. These factors all contribute to the size and type of dispersal that will be observed. Unclassified visual and thermal satellite imagery confirms that the fallout from the bombings of Iraqi targets during the air and ground war moved to the southeast, with the weather patterns and upper atmospheric wind currents, towards Coalition force positions. (See Chapter 3.) According to a knowledgeable source who has requested confidentiality, the Czechs believed that the detections were caused by the weather inversion which occurred that day (January 19, 1991) as the weather front moved southward. The Czechoslovak chemical detection unit reported this information to U.S. command officials immediately, but the responding units were unable to confirm their findings when they arrived, according to the Pentagon. Nonetheless, at the November 10, 1993 briefing, the Department of Defense admitted that the Czech detections were believed to be valid. The Department of Defense failed to disclose that the Czechoslovak chemical detection team also detected yperite (HD) that morning. The presence of both of these agents in such close proximity could only reasonably be the result of one of two possibilities: (1) direct Iraqi mixed agent attack, or (2) fallout from the Coalition bombings of Iraqi weapons facilities and storage bunkers. Defense Department officials, having had possession of the Czech report for over a month, were at a loss to explain the chemical mustard agent detected by the Czechoslovak chemical detection team in the Saudi desert near King Khalid Military City on January 24, 1991. This despite the fact that both the Czechs and French claim that this detection was reported to U.S. command authorities during the Persian Gulf War. Additionally, during the Gulf War, the Czechs claimed that they detected Chemical nerve agent after a Scud missile attack. These statements, heretofore only reported in the press, have been confirmed by a member of the U.S. 1st Cavalry Division and by an entire platoon of a U.S. Army chemical detection unit who trained with the Czechoslovak Chemical detection unit near King Khalid Military City. These reports have not been addressed publicly by the Department of Defense and will be addressed in this report in Chapter 3. The contents of this report supports the conclusion that U.S. forces were exposed to some level of chemical and possibly biological warfare agents during their service in the Gulf War. Any review conducted by the Pentagon must extend far beyond the information being reported by the Czech Ministry of Defense. The Czech information, while important, represents just a small fraction of the evidence currently available, only some of which will be detailed in this report. It is now the position of the Department of Defense that it has no other evidence that U.S. forces were exposed to chemical agents. Yet this report contains descriptions and direct eyewitness accounts that provide evidence which suggest that gas was detected, along with many other events which may have been actual attacks on U.S. forces. This report supports the conclusion that U.S. forces were exposed to chemical agents. The assertion that the levels of nerve agents detected by the Czechs and others were not harmful is flawed. In subsequent requirements for chemical detection equipment, the Department of the Army acknowledges that the principal chemical agent detection alarm deployed during the war, the M8A1 was not sufficiently sensitive to detect sustained low levels of chemical agent and to monitor personnel for contamination. Further, U.S. Army Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) indicate that chronic exposures to levels of over .0001 mg/m3 for Sarin (GB) is hazardous and requires the use of protective equipment. (See appendix A.) The minimum level of chemical agent required to activate chemical agent detection alarm M8A1, commonly in use during the war, exceeds this threshold by a factor of 1,000. (See appendix A.) As the chemical agent alarms began to sound during the "air war," French, Czech, and many U.S. commanders confirmed that they were sounding from the fallout from the bombings. Over time, even at these levels, after repeatedly being told that there was no danger, many U.S. forces failed to take precautionary measures. Other report that the alarms were sounding so frequently that they were turned off. M8A1 alarms do not detect blister agents. The findings of this report prepared at the request of Chairman Riegle detail many other events reported by U.S. servicemen and women that in some cases confirm the detection of chemical agents by U.S. forces. In other cases these reports indicate the need for further detailed investigation. But still the question remains: Is exposure to these and other chemical agents the cause of Gulf War Syndrome? We have received hundreds of reports that many of these symptoms are being experienced by family members. Numerous developments have taken place over the last several months which suggest that, while chemical agents and other environmental hazards may have contributed to the Gulf War illnesses, bacteriological, fungal, and possibly other biological illnesses may be the fundamental cause. This position is supported by the following. First, Dr. Edward S. Hyman, a New Orleans bacteriologist, has treated a small number of the sick veterans and several of their wives for bacteriological infections, and has developed a protocol of treatment that has resulted in symptom abatement in many of his patients. Second, during the November 10, 1993 unclassified briefing for Members of the U.S. Senate, in response to direct questioning, then Undersecretary of Defense John Deutch said that the Department of Defense was withholding classified information on the exposure of U.S. forces to biological materials. In a Department of Defense- sponsored conference on counter-proliferation, held at Los Alamos National Laboratory on 6-7 May, 1994, Dr. Deutch admitted that biological agent detection is a priority development area for the Department of Defense, since there currently is no biological agent detection system fielded with any U.S. forces anywhere in the world. Third, the Department of Defense has named Dr. Joshua Lederberg to head its research team into the causes of Gulf War illnesses. Dr. Lederberg, among his other credits, is a Nobel Laureate and an expert in the fields of bacteriology, genetics, and biological warfare defenses. Fourth, in detailed informational interviews conducted of 400 Gulf War veterans, it has been learned that over 3/4 of their spouses complain that they have begun to suffer from many of the same debilitating symptoms. (See Chapter 4.) This report, like the one which preceded it, will discuss the relationship between the high rate of Gulf War illnesses among Group I individuals (those possibly exposed to a direct mixed agent event), and the lower rates among those in Group II (individuals exposed to the indirect fallout from coalition bombings of Iraqi chemical, biological, and nuclear targets) and Group III (individuals who suffered severe adverse reactions to the nerve agent pre-treatment pills). Despite the varying rates of illness between the groups, however, the symptoms are similar. While other possible causes of the Gulf War Syndrome such as petrochemical poisoning, depleted uranium exposures, and regionally prevalent diseases, have been discussed elsewhere and must be pursued, there is a great deal of compelling evidence which indicates that all of these possibilities must now be seriously considered. We believe, however, that no other explanations prove as compelling as the ones which will be presented in this report. This report includes a great number of first-hand accounts and other documentary evidence in addition to the anecdotal information that appeared in the print and electronic media during the Gulf War. It establishes convincingly that the Department of Defense assertions are inaccurate. We believe there is reliable evidence that U.S. forces were exposed to chemical and possibly biological agents. But regardless of whether U.S. forces were exposed or not, the entire official body of information, including all classified or heretofore unpublished information, available research data sets, case histories, and diagnostic breakdown information must be made available to independent civilian medical researchers in order to further the research into the causes of and treatments for these illnesses. Absent a release of information by the Department of Defense of the science which forms the bases for their theories, the Department of Defense position must be viewed by qualified scientists as anecdotal and unsubstantiated. Given that there is also a growing body of evidence indicating that spouses and children of Gulf War veterans are vulnerable to similar illnesses, the Department of Defense must now share all of its information with civilian, non-governmental researchers. These family members are civilians who may be at risk. This illness was first reported over three years ago. On February 9, 1994, Chairman Riegle sent a letter to Secretary of Defense William Perry asking that he release all U.S. military personnel from any oath of secrecy they may have taken regarding classified information specifically pertaining to chemical or biological warfare agent exposure in the Persian Gulf theater. This request was based on a recommendation of the National Academy of Sciences, National Institute of Medicine in their 1993 publication Veterans at Risk: The Health Effects of Mustard Gas and Lewisite. On May 4, 1994, the Secretaries of Defense, Health and Human Services, and Veterans Affairs responded to the Chairman's letter stating that there was no classified information on chemical or biological detections or exposures. This directly contradicts the statement of Deputy Secretary Deutch in his November 10, 1993 unclassified briefing to Members and staff. Why isn't the Department of Defense aggressively pursuing the answers to the questions surrounding of the events which may have caused illnesses being suffered by many Gulf War veterans? One possible explanation lies in a 1982 article. Then Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Tower wrote, "Chemical training in the United States armed forces is, at best, perfunctory. It is rarely conducted in a simulated contaminated environment and stocks of individual protective equipment are too limited, and therefore too valuable, to risk them in the numbers necessary to allow troops to operate in them for realistic training. As a result, most U.S. personnel are relegated to a minimal and highly artificial exposure to the problems and hardships entailed in performing their respective combat missions should they have to 'button up'." As numerous U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) reports have noted, the U.S. was not much better prepared prior to the Gulf War than it was when Senator Tower wrote in his article. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
The Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee, where I serve as chairman, has oversight over the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to that act, I asked my committee staff to contact the Department of Commerce to request information on any biological materials that might have been exported from the United States to Iraq in the years prior to the gulf war. I did this not only to find out if we had done that, but also to get information on what kind of items they might have had to incorporate into their biological weapons program. These materials may have gotten loose. And that, in part, may be a cause of many of these medical problems experienced by returning veterans. After we finally got the information from the Commerce Department, we then contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine exactly what materials were exported to Iraq which could have contributed to their biological weapons capability. The records which we were able to get from the supplier were for the period since 1985. We were not able to get any records prior to 1985. But let me tell you what we have now learned about exports since 1985. We found that pathogenic, which means disease-producing items, and toxigenic, meaning poisonous items, and other hazardous materials were exported from the United States to Iraq following a licensing and application procedure actually set forth by our own United States Department of Commerce. That meant our own Government had to approve the shipment of these materials and obviously did so - approving the shipment of these items to Iraq before the war started. Now, we further learned by talking to the suppliers that these exported biological materials were not weakened when they were shipped over there. In other words, many were full pathogens capable of being reproduced by Iraq once they got there. Between the years of 1985 and 1989, the United States Government approved the sales of quantities of potentially lethal biological agents that could have been cultured and grown in very large quantities in an Iraqi biological warfare program. I find it especially troubling that according to these supply records, hazardous biological materials were requested by and they were sent to Iraqi Government agencies, including the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission, the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, the State Company for Drug Industries, and the Ministry of Trade. While there may be some legitimate need for what are called pathogens in medical research, obviously much closer scrutiny should be exercised in approval of exports of materials of this kind to countries known or suspected of having active and aggressive biological warfare programs. Iraq has long been suspected of conducting biological warfare research in addition to its known chemical and biological warfare research programs. Now, listen to the summary report of the Department of Defense to the Congress on the conduct of the Persian Gulf war which was written in 1992. I am quoting a paragraph out of this report. This is the formal report of the Department of Defense on the war. By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. Its advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world. . . . The program probably began late in the 1970`s and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria. . . . Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities near Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles. Now, that is our own Department of Defense acknowledging the capability of Iraq`s biological weapons capability after the war. Let us talk about in detail about what we sent Saddam Hussein and his government before the war to help them develop that very capability. From here....... http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Riegle_Report Rocket in England | ||
| Geedee |
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| Xdigitalx |
If only Saddam didn't invade Kuwaiti, rape and torture the women, beat the elderly... and then continue to defy the US and UN resolutions and shoot at the planes guarding the no fly zone and continue development of longer range missles.... for 12 years... he'd still be alive and there just might be 1,000's of Muslim children playing in the fantastically huge Bagdad Disneyland. | ||
| Aesquire |
If, and it so appears from your post, Rocket, the US supplied WMD material to Iraq the guilty parties deserve to be hung. We will cheerfully build the gallows, since obviously it's going to take a few days. No problem. Perhaps if Canada conquers us, ( which should be easy in a few years ) they can get to the bottom of it. Odds are better that I'll end up in a concentration camp for badmouthing the President's dog. Trouble is, all that directly contradicts your earlier post. As for Iraq and WMD's, there were non and non were ever found. Non were transported away. Had they been, they'd have been found, or at the very least found years later. Now, I have read multiple accounts that some were found. Not the thousands of tons the UN documented, which is troubling, but certainly not non. ( Where Did they go? ) If I had been in charge during the Bush years, after the Invasion, every single shell or chemical weapons container found would be parked under honor guard in the rotunda of the Capitol. ( I'm not saying I wouldn't have made sure they were empty first.... ) That would have been a powerful symbol. Then again George the Younger was never any good at that. Xdigitalx, Heck if Saddam had opened up his WMD stocks to the UN and played it straight, he'd still be in power. He tried to use his WMD's to keep his enemies off him ( everyone around him ) and thought the US wouldn't attack if he didn't obey the UN resolutions. After all, Clinton wouldn't have. When you believe, based on past experience, that the worst that will happen is a few underlings on night shift get bombed, but there will be no serious problems for you, why change? | ||
| Court |
Well . . I confess I was skeptical about the shoe WMD thing. But when Hillary Clinton, a seasoned politician with the creed to later become Secretary of State, assured me all accounts were accurate . . . what choice did I have but to admit Bush made an informed decision. I'll be more skeptical if she, the same person years earlier fired for ethical violations, of trusting her. | ||
| Aesquire |
I heard on the radio... ( salt please ) that the FBI agent assigned to baby sit/interrogate Saddam says...Saddam, told him.... that he ( saddam ) ordered the poison gas destroyed and the bio war program mothballed. The Bio program ended up in one of the scientists back yard, and the samples of anthrax and ( I forget ) were taken...... and nothing else was ever reported. Of course NBC wouldn't have reported a cache of nuclear bombs the size of the pyramids if it made GWB look good. Or more important, made John Kerry or Hillary look bad. The Nuclear program was pretty messed up by the Israeli reactor strike, and despite the tons of yellow cake Uranium that Iraq bought from Nigeria, turns out wasn't operational. The Uranium has now been shipped to Canada for processing. ( since the US can't build a processing center. Despite making building a processing plant the law, they just never funded it. ) The Poison gas, that's the one thing we have independent confirmation on. First from the attacks on the Kurds, second from the UN inspectors. Third from Israeli intelligence & the Russian General on the convoys to Syria. Fourth from the binary gas shells used as IED's in Iraq. Fifth from the Polish troops and the mustard gas they found. Still a lot missing. It's possible that between the stuff sent to Syria, the stuff destroyed with no records, and the stuff found that it's all gone, but unaccounted for and thus a permanent mystery. I bet a dollar there's a butt load buried in some sand dunes. Someone knows where. We found Mig jets buried in the sand. Iraq is the size of California, and I'm pretty sure Americans could have hidden 10,000 tons of contraband from invading Chinese troops. ( different customs & language ) Then again if HILLARY said it was so.......... | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Trouble is, all that directly contradicts your earlier post. Nope. You did exactly what I told is common in these discussions. Rocket said The point you miss regarding WMD's is the lie that was told to both our nations by Bush and Blair, which certainly in the case of the British, had us going to war. It's long since been proven that Blair lied and there were no WMD's. LOTS OF FACTS / EVIDENCE SUPPORT SUCH. The other aspect which is always bolstered up by the US when it comes to WMD's, is in its original take where Iraq and Saddam were concerned is we were lead to believe these were nuclear weapons, or at least dirty versions of them. Let's stick to the facts and not concentrate on chemicals of little threat to anyone but an invading force, if anyone at all. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony -blair-and-iraq-the-damning-evidence-8563133.html Do pay attention to the third paragraph! http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/media/54976/2013-11- 04_Chilcot_Cameron.pdf It's all here if you have the time, still waiting it's final scathing last words. http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/ Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
As for Hillary, do you think Bill did her with a Cohiba too? Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
Not a chance. I think Bill is the wrong type for her. Here in the US we knew Saddam wanted nukes but unless he got Russian ones did not have them. Blair told you Saddam had nukes? No wmds? Long since been proven? Tell that to the Kurds. Don't you even believe the Russians? The antidotes for nerve gas are poison themselves. We may never know how bad the preventative drugs were because our D controlled Congress cuts Veterans medical while giving to the criminal trespassers that are signed up to vote for them. Didn't look today was working on Cyclone. Did Obama's secret mercs attack the Russian speaking folks again? | ||
| Geedee |
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| Cityxslicker |
Provocative and Unprofessional flights of Su-24's over our boat in the tub. http://tinyurl.com/l46lzvn we used to pull this stuff to them during the Cold War days. I was on staff for a squadron that overflew one of their boats at a rate that blew out their windows and fried their electronics..... and we were duly reprimanded - with a unit citation for it  The cold war is turning back on..... Ivan never really got tired of playing it. | ||
| Reindog |
Still believe the "United States saboteurs" are inciting civil war in the Ukraine? Still supporting the commie Russian bastards or have y'all awoken yet to poor victimized Moscow?  | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Geedee, show me something I don't know. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Still believe the "United States saboteurs" are inciting civil war in the Ukraine? Still supporting the commie Russian bastards or have y'all awoken yet to poor victimized Moscow? More than ever given todays news on several fronts. It'll filter through to the US soon enough, once the propaganda you're swallowing doesn't quite ring true. Want a clue? The facts are out there if you REALLY want to go find them. You won't though as you're too scared of being wrong. Ya know, being American n'all Have you considered discussion as opposed to your sanctimonious line of questioning? Rocket in England | ||
| Macbuell |
I find it funny that that you continue to lecture us about propaganda. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE? SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-0 4-15-11-46-01 http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-pushes-tanks-toward- flashpoint-separatist-city-155121616.html;_ylt=AwrSyCXuVk1TMxcAKPrQtDMD "Ukraine pushes tanks and troops into separatist east" http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-14/fragile-e urope-weakens-u-s-push-for-russia-sanctions.html Translation. Europe can get so screwed messing with Russia, while Obama is going for publicity stunts believing he is immune. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_RU SSIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2 014-04-15-08-37-14 Russia tests Obama's ability to stop its advances By JULIE PACE AP White House Correspondent WASHINGTON (AP) -- With the White House asserting that Russia is stoking instability in eastern Ukraine, President Barack Obama is once again faced with the complicated reality of following through on his tough warnings against overseas provocations. translation, Obama & his advisers are cretins. ( I'm being nice. I want to say they are delusional and ignorant. Actually.... I do say that. ) I am really thinking that for Obama, this is all about Obama. People getting shot only matters if it makes Obama look bad. I may be unfair. I could be wrong. He, OTOH can never be. Rocket, I take it that Russian tv is reporting on the attacks by the evil Ukraine on innocent Russian civilians? http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-brink-civil-war-russ ian-pm-144443553.html We find ourselves in a position of trying to decide who is lying more. A leader that may be a KGB Agent who we now know seized power illegally and has promoted violent overthrows of US friendly governments, and Vladimir, a KGB agent who seized power illegally. ( just kidding about the KGB agent thing. Vladimir was an OFFICER in the KGB. ) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Lindsey Hilsum, international editor for Ch 4 news. http://blogs.channel4.com/lindsey-hilsum-on-intern ational-affairs/we-accept-ukraines-government-legi timate/3775 Broadcast UK Tuesday evening news. http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-russia-barack -obama-vladimir-putin-united-states We hear threats from jumped up self appointed military idiots. http://rt.com/news/ukraine-general--protesters-des troyed-704/ We hear threats from a superpower nations leader, yet Putin, ever the diplomat, still reiterates a peaceful solution is necessary. I've not heard Putin threaten the US or Obama at all. http://rt.com/news/putin-ukraine-military-operatio n-740/ That said. Putin is no fool and he is willing to play Obama at his own game. Didn't someone say chess earlier in this topic? This could be a grandmaster move if Putin pulls it off...... http://www.sott.net/article/277104-Russia-and-Chin a-announce-decoupling-trade-from-Dollar-The-End-fo r-the-USA-is-nigh%E2%80%8F Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I find it funny that that you continue to lecture us about propaganda. If I've done such a thing, I assure you I meant no humour! This is f^^^^^g serious. Some need to wake up and smell the shit coming their way if they allow their government to act like a bully against a powerful nation like Russia. Obama and Cameron are like dogs with a bone. One thing is for sure. When the time is right, Cameron will be targeted by the press as a war monger. Just as Blair was. And like Blair, it will be Cameron's fall from grace too. It's just a pity, and a well calculated move on his part, general elections don't take place until next year. That f*****g glory boy is gonna be out at the same time Obama is ending his warmongering days. Tragically I fear, next year is not soon enough for these two utter fools. I just hope Putin has the tenacity to play it cool and hit them in other ways rather than letting them have what they're pushing for. A land based war. Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
What does Vitaly Klitchko say? I tend trust his word. | ||
| Alfau |
http://www.viagogo.com/au/Moscow/Sports-Tickets/Wl adimir-Klitschko-Tickets?AffiliateID=49&PCID=PSAUB INSPOWLADIFC892F7DDB-SL2 | ||
| Cityxslicker |
say... the end of the dollar ? ... off the damn horizon.... gee.... if only someone had seen that coming.... BRICS has been off the dollar for nearly a decade. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What does Vitaly Klitchko say? I tend trust his word. He's been told by the Yanks to go down in the 5th! Just to make it look convincing. Yeah right Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Al, Wrong Klitchko. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Well Blake, you could call Victoria Nuland. Or Geoffrey Pyatt. They're the ones pulling his strings ^^^^^^^^as was demonstrated weeks ago in this topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QxZ8t3V_bk You know, for a while I thought you were joking. Klitchko is you're trusting voice in this? Wow. Clearly you are not following this at all. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake it's a bit depressing that ( other than a century of leftist Russian track record re: truth ) the biggest reason I have to dispute Rocket's take is my firm belief that he completely miss reads Obama's competence. It's possible that Rocket and our ( US not Badweb ) conspiracy guys may agree that Obama is just a tool the super rich Dr. Evils use. They may disagree on which rich guys.............. If so I could be wrong and should respect the Russian news. Rocket. Any opinion on George Soros? I thought he'd screwed England & Russia? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Interesting as I believed Obama and Putin had formed a good relationship between both nations unlike any I've known in my lifetime. That was until now, and Ukraine. My understanding of US politics is where I am let down as I have no idea who really is in charge there. For example, taking Tony Blair as PM, as with all PM's they have to work to a system where one person can't just make a decision of such great importance. But Blair did. He convinced, pretty much as Thatcher always did, that his word was final in the matter of striking Iraq. In effect, the UK went to war because Tony Blair was in possession of facts that Iraq had WMD's. Now we can argue here that Iraq did, but the reality of such was that Iraq had no capability of using WMD's in any situation that could or would have lead to mass destruction, and certainly not to the extent the UK was under threat from Iraq with such weapons. This was the point of my posting the links to the Chilcot enquiry. But not to digress too much, it appears David Cameron is similar in his approach to Ukraine events as Blair was with Iraq. That is to say, Cameron seems to be pulling the strings, but it's likely the reality is, no matter all his blustering, and that of Foreign Secretary William Hague and the rest of Cameron's more than supportive Cabinet, that Cameron cannot be in a position to order ultimate control in a lone decision to do as HE pleases in Ukraine despite the apparent support of his fellows. The Blair issue has surely put paid to that. Whatever the UK does in Ukraine, I believe (and it's only my opinion) Cameron will not be able to take any sort of military action whether he has the support to do so or not from his Cabinet. The British people will simply not allow it for starters. And of course, this is why NATO is the bolstering up force. So getting back to Obama, and US politics. I really don't know who is the ultimate decision maker or how your system works. Is it ultimately a decision the President can take. Does Obama have the authority to single handedly call the shots should he so please. Which leads me to Kerry. Now what is the deal with Kerry? He is the more vocal one in this. It's Kerry we see on the news. It's not so much Obama. Is Kerry powerful enough he has influence enough to bring about differences to Obama's favoured actions reactions? Here is an interesting observation worthy of half an hour of anyones time. http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/us-eu-ukraine-sanctio ns-300/ Rocket in England | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Soros is in Ukraine; his 'Open Society' organization is there. And if you read his White Papers on Social Justice, Voting Rights, and Access to 'Capital' - you can almost hear Obama's Teleprompter. He is also a fan of Resilience - the go word for ethnic cleansing, and let the rich protected 'progressives' survive; especially if it is at the cost of the prepared conservatives. | ||
| Aesquire |
Kerry has no power. He's a pos lying politician who is appointed by the Prez. Part of the pro-communist authoritarian jerks but not a real player. Parrot. Ego ignorant and under remote control. Unfortunately by fools with real power who take no responsibility. Just credit. | ||
| Trojan |
How does anyone (including poiliticians) think that a ground war will achieve anything? Doesn't experience teach us anything at all? How much better off are the people of Syria since their uprising? Maybe if we forced all our politicians to put their children into the armed forces for for a few years they would start to think differently. One thing is for sure. The people of Ukraine will be the pawns in the middle of yet another pointless power struggle between the USA and Russia, and nobody wil come out as a winner  |
