| Author | Message | ||
     Macbuell |
Maybe it's just me but I find Rocket's logic to be very convoluted. | ||
| Aesquire |
Soviet propaganda often seems that way. You lack the cultural context of Russians that have had their country invaded over and over. Usually by Germans but the French have taken a shot at it too. Also the sense of inferiority. Europe has long mocked Russia as backwards and slope browed........etc. Then a century of exploitation from murderous thugs. Like Putin's former bosses. | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't forget I ASKED for a different point of view. I'm not happy Rocket seems to buy that view uncritically, and I am very skeptical of it myself. Partly because the "we need a buffer zone between Moscow and the Imperialist Europeans" has been the excuse for conquest in the past. The desire for that buffer zone however is understandable. We don't want Mexico but holding it as a buffer zone against S American illegal activity has an appeal. Not going to happen. But Mexico isn't Lithuania. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
You lack the cultural context of Russian's .... um... some Vodka will clear that right up!! | ||
| Fredfast |
I think that the answer to Rockets question as to why the US has interests in the Ukraine probably has little to do with keeping Russia within it's present borders or keeping a buffer between Russia and western Europe. I think the US interest in the Ukraine is economic and making sure it becomes a market place for goods from the west and probably a source of cheap labor for western corps. I think it's more difficult for western corps to operate freely within the realm of Russian bureaucracy. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Patrick, the US are not in the Ukraine? The phone call from assistant US Secretary of State for Europe and Eurasian affairs, Victoria Newland, to United States Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, implicates the US. Fact. Well, you keep asking what we think the US should be doing in our opinion. Nope Sifo. I have never asked such. I thought USA was in Ukraine to stand behind a country that wants freedom and democracy. Am I to assume you mean Ukrainians can only have this if they head west? Ukraine already has freedom and democracy. Or did have until recently  What do the Ukrainian government want? Can't say. They left town in a big hurry! What do the Ukrainian people want? Whatever they want we will stand behind them. Half want what the other half don't. Standing by might prove rather difficult seeing as the US already has its own agenda in play. They are not the aggressors. Yes, some Ukraine's are aggressors. Proven nazi party activists and members. Maybe it's just me but I find Rocket's logic to be very convoluted. No, I'd say you understand the logic (it's not exclusively mine after all, but that of millions), you just don't want to accept it, for what are obvious reasons to me Also the sense of inferiority. Europe has long mocked Russia as backwards and slope browed........etc. I can't speak for Europe but this is certainly not the case in the UK. I've no idea where you've come across this? I'm not happy Rocket seems to buy that view uncritically, and I am very skeptical of it myself. Which view do I buy uncritically? Skeptical of what? This so called uncritical acceptance or 'that view' of which I know not which you refer to? Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I think that the answer to Rockets question as to why the US has interests in the Ukraine probably has little to do with keeping Russia within it's present borders or keeping a buffer between Russia and western Europe. I think the US interest in the Ukraine is economic and making sure it becomes a market place for goods from the west and probably a source of cheap labor for western corps. I think it's more difficult for western corps to operate freely within the realm of Russian bureaucracy. Ukraine can enjoy anything it wants right now. There seems to be some misunderstanding by some here that Ukraine has not moved on since the Soviet days. Russia does not control Ukraine. Therefore there is no bureaucratic blockade in existence. On the contrary. Russia pays Ukraine handsomely for its gas pipelines passing through Ukraine. All be it a diminishing financial pot, with new pipelines in place diverting away from Ukraine. Ukraine, as Europe's 5th largest gas buyer, buys its gas from Russia. At a much reduced cost, and by way of loan agreement. That was until Yanukovych's government were overthrown and all has changed. Western Ukraine's are said to favour more ties with Europe. Eastern Ukraine's said to favour remaining close to Russia and not sign agreements with the EU. Eastern Ukraine is the countries industrial heartland. Make of that what you will. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
You are being obtuse. The "view" is Rtv. Said by some to be the view of the Russian leaders. As to the European contempt for Russia it goes back to the Czars and is hundreds of years old. England has fought Russia in the Crimea. ( into the valley of death ) England also has had a good relation with them and many Russians attended your military academies as you helped bootstrap them into modern times. England is not Europe. ( since your kings quit claiming France..... so it's been a while ) I understand many in the UK don't wholly think of themselves as European. ( a lot of wars are involved ) I don't consider England peripheral. ...... more somewhat other than Europe. A leader in personal freedom when pogroms and purges, oppression and tyrants swept across the land across the Channel. I don't know the US agenda. Other than selling everyone Coca-Cola. There's the Fifty odd years we've been at war with the Soviets and the hundreds of millions killed around the world in the cause of the Revolution. I freely admit that influence in my thinking. | ||
| Fredfast |
"Ukraine can enjoy anything it wants right now." Revolutions are not caused by ideologies alone. The people there must have been under economic depression to throw the old administration out. I agree that it may have been ignited by a militia politically opposed to those in power but there were a lot of people in that square that demanded change. Perhaps they felt that their lives would improve with closer ties to the west. Just speculating. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm typing as I find. Ok, so I say the view is this and that, and you tell me those views according to some are those of the Russian leaders. How does that work? I happen to watch news broadcasts too. I can see what the people are saying. Whether the news is real, and the people to be believed or not is a matter of my choice. My choice does not get steamrollered over by your choice because you've had it blown up your backside since infant school the Ruskies are coming. The people have spoken. The people are speaking. You know what. The word on the street is the US has dirty hands in this. That's the word on the British streets. The streets of Europe. And the streets of America. Yes I have what's called social media. Friends all over the world. Greece, Pakistan, Russia, Qatar, New Zealand, US, Canada to name a few. The majority social media word from my Interweb hub appears to be the US are stirring the pot. I suppose most types that use multi media are tree hugging ban the bomb peace marchers though, which amounts to my findings being expected. Expected and hysterical of course. As for America selling the world Coca-cola. Whilst I'm not being obtuse it's ok for you to be blatantly so? I thought we'd put the personal stuff to bed? Or at least I had. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Revolutions are not caused by ideologies alone. The people there must have been under economic depression to throw the old administration out. I agree that it may have been ignited by a militia politically opposed to those in power but there were a lot of people in that square that demanded change. Perhaps they felt that their lives would improve with closer ties to the west. Just speculating. Look, you don't need me to keep repeating myself. The Internet news sites, Youtube, and many other places, are full of information which does not support the simplicity of your description. Yes economic depression is terrible in Ukraine. But the people did not throw the government out, even if they might have done at some point anyway. We are talking a well organised coup of which this topic provides plenty of evidence. Victoria Newland's phone call should have enough alarm bells ringing for you, which I mentioned not more than a handful of posts ago. It's a good starting point if you backtrack from it. Rocket in England | ||
| Fredfast |
I agree that my comment was simplistic and maybe my support for the present administration (unlike others here) doesn't allow me to believe that the Obama administration would resort to covert operations in the Ukraine. If that truly is the case, and Putins influence in Ukraine is now diminished, those like Asquire should be commending him for his methods. But that will never happen. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Maybe it's just me but I find Rocket's logic to be very convoluted. It takes all types. We still have people claiming Bush brought down the twin towers. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
maybe my support for the present administration (unlike others here) doesn't allow me to believe that the Obama administration would resort to covert operations in the Ukraine. You're actually admitting to a blind faith belief in Obama and his admin. It's no surprise really. About a half of your nations people come across similarly wired, which has kinda being an underlying point of mine in this entire topic. Despite their protestations otherwise. Thanks for admitting it. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
It takes all types. We still have people claiming Bush brought down the twin towers. Indirectly he did when he invaded Iraq. But that's another story. The story here isn't riddled with conspiracy theories on Youtube. This story is riddled with American politicians up to their neck in Ukrainian politics. And yes, the factual accounts of such are on Youtube. No conspiracy theory needed. It's pitiful how this topic has an overriding attempt to discredit me. Still, it's not too bad a price to pay for the expense of my comments proving irrefutable. Rocket in England | ||
| Court |
>>>doesn't allow me to believe that the Obama administration would resort to covert operations in the Ukraine. After they revealed the big guys' "kill list" and the fact that they ordered the murder of an American citizen without the nasty due process guaranteed by the Constitution. Scares me when a hoodie from Chicago becomes the "king of drones." | ||
| Cityxslicker |
>>>doesn't allow me to believe that the Obama administration would resort to covert operations in the Ukraine. ' You aren't paying attention. He has no qualms of eliminating anyone with the push of a button - it is a video game to him. He has never had to face conflict or be in uniform ; you are chattel - and if you are noisey enough chattel - a threat. Treats get drones. Welcome to the show. | ||
| Blake |
>>> This story is riddled with Russian politicians up to their neck in Ukrainian politics. And yes, the factual accounts of such are on Youtube. Infinitely more truthful. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The country isn't so divided geographically as the news wants to paint it. Miki is from the Eastern Part of Ukraine - her parents from Donetsk ; She is not happy about the Russians taking Crimea and their threats to come over the boarder. I am betting that her family feels the same way. This shiate get hot and stupid before it gets better.... We have to make it through the summer without some head of state getting whacked in assassination..... I am not betting on a safe summer - I don't know the leader that will get whacked - but it feels about that time again. | ||
| Fredfast |
"You aren't paying attention. He has no qualms of eliminating anyone with the push of a button - it is a video game to him. He has never had to face conflict or be in uniform ; you are chattel - and if you are noisey enough chattel - a threat. Treats get drones." Nobody bitched about him taking down Bin Laden and most would agree that taking out Al Qaedas leadership is a priority. If he did nothing you would complain about the lack of security. You can't have it both ways. Send in hundreds of thousand troops at immense cost or use drones. Which is it? I didn't perceive Ukraine as a threat to US security. If Obama used a covert operation to overthrow the "legitimate" government, shame on him and on us. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
>>> This story is riddled with Russian politicians up to their neck in Ukrainian politics. And yes, the factual accounts of such are on Youtube. The difference being, the Russian's up to their neck in it, be this good or corrupt, are neighbours with history intertwining both nations throughout all of time. I would however be interested to see which 'incriminating' Youtube stuff you refer to? Pray tell though. What business do America have meddling in Ukraine politics when they have a somewhat defiant heavyweight Russian residing next door, both nations being thousands of miles away from the US? Whether you believe it or not, Newland's phone call puts the US in Ukrainian politics time before the very likely corrupt Yanukovych ran away in fear of his life. The point being America's hands are in Ukraine for a reason which has little to do with freedom and democracy of a diverse mix of, a distant to America, nations people. So let's not kid ourselves. We all know what the US is really up to. For some American's this seems fair keeping the big bad Russian at bay. Your Superpower nations have become natural enemies. Not so here in the UK. Since the Cold War dissolved into European's able to move around our continent freely, British people are not natural enemies to Russia. Significantly we do not see Russia as a threat to us. Rather more as long lost friend. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Miki is from the Eastern Part of Ukraine - her parents from Donetsk ; She is not happy about the Russians taking Crimea and their threats to come over the boarder. Judging by what is reported, it seems fair to say there is a divide. One which has run somewhat harmoniously, at least at people level, since the split from Russia. Adding to the mix are east Ukraine's seeking better paid work across the border into Russia, and west Ukraine's seeking work in the east of Ukraine. Ukraine's industrial heartland. It's a large country after all, running much more west / east, and occupying a large chunk of mid east Europe. Miki might have a good point, and is no doubt not alone. There are many that don't agree with her. This is for them to sort. Not America. Especially so given Russia resides next door. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
Long lost friend. England yes. As I said a long history of "uplift". Sandhurst alone accounts for a massive influence the UK has in the world. ( discussion of the fate of the former colonies of the UK vs. Other powers is instructive. Australia vs. Vietnam? Kenya vs. Congo? ) The feelings Russians have about the Mainland European nations and the snobbery they expressed is different.. the perception of inferiority, the cartoon image of the backward yokels....... this stuff hangs on for generations. If not for the raw evil that was the Soviet version of the neo-marxist cults the US and Russia are kindred spirits in many ways. Funny how Russians warn Americans about the dangers of that cult's growth in the US. Ironic not humor. The parrots of the Pravda here show the same dishonesty as they did/do in Moscow Berlin Havana Caracas Pyongyang and Beijing. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Nobody bitched about him taking down Bin Laden I did. It was a disgrace to see US politicians with smiles on their faces watch the murder and assassination of innocent people. There was only one Bin Laden in Abbottabad that night. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
City, Another assasination.......the Yellowstone Super Volcano. ..... Ebola epidemic........ WW4....... interesting times. Drone attack on protesters might be a trigger for some real troubles. Should we start a pool on that one? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Patrick, could you please spare us the history lessons. Or at least write it in English rather than American, your words sometimes hard to follow. No doubt you're a learned fellow, but your drifting is often too much of a distraction away from the main event Thanks. Appreciated  Rocket in England | ||
| Fredfast |
It's not understood in American either. I think it's written in a stream of consciousness not to be understood by anyone other than the author. | ||
| Aesquire |
Rocket, good Point. It is the history of these players that I look at, and much of that history is suppressed.... Leftist efforts at purging history are in full swing here. It was a disgrace to see US politicians with smiles on their faces watch the murder and assassination of innocent people. I was all for capturing Bin Laden, and not unhappy to hear of his passing. While some idiots doubt his guilt, they didn't bother to see the video Bin Laden posted where he not only bragged about the Sept. 2001 attacks, but bragged that his recruits didn't know they were to be agents of plane crash attacks, and thought they were hijacking for hostages and the greater glory of Bin Laden and Allah. ( in that order ) Even so, the decision to kill instead of capture, the disposal of the body, and the long and heavy handed "I killed Bin Laden" campaign propaganda...... not good. The difference in respect for human rights with the current US regime and Stalin's is getting harder to see. drifting....... drifting....... oh! look! Shiny! (Message edited by aesquire on April 03, 2014) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I have severe reservations that he was taken out as the story goes...... you will notice that every spec op credited with that mission is now dead .... and that body never was met the light of autopsy. Stinks of wag in the dog Staged Written Scripted Produced Pure maskirovshaya | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/04/who_was_rig ht_on_russia.html US domestic political idiocy. How do we fire these people? |
