| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Rick, The 1911 is surely the better looking pistol, no doubt. It pains me some to say this, but aside from aesthetics, the Tokarev is an improved design from an engineering and practical perspective. It's quite elegant save for the crude "giterdone" quality of machine work. Hey, they had twenty years of studying the genius of John Browning before the Tokarev emerged on the scene.  Zastava Tokarev M57 7.62x25mm The Tokarev implements a captured recoil spring on a hinged guide rod. No more wrestling with the barrel bushing (yes I know, only puny girly men would care), since the spring and guide rod come out rearwards. Besides facilitating field stripping, it also is a neater, tidier scheme, no more worry of losing a separated spring or guide rod. The trigger pack is self contained and modular, just pull it out as part of field strip. Really neat! Mr. Tokarev ditched the beaver tail and moved the grip portion of the frame forward about a half inch. The frame then acts as the beaver tail. Not as aesthetically appealing, but very practical. No grip safety. Fine by me! The grip panels are held in place by levers accessible via the magazine well; no screws to fiddle with. Neat.  Zastava Tokarev M57 7.62x25mm Field Stripped Photo from http://gunningtx.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/yugoslavian-tokarev-a-guide-part-1/ I'm sure Mr. Browning would have approved of the 1930's vintage Russian cousin to his 1911, at least the engineering. Not so much the finishing and attention to detail. Same as all Russian weaponry. Put on Tchaikovsky, pour some Vodka, and peal open some Dostoevsky; it's not so important. Nice documentary of a field strip of an M57... http://youtu.be/jWWrpZhwhc8 | ||
| Blake |
Bill, The CZ is prettier, but the Yugo/Zastava version is nothing but solid. AIM Surplus just had some shooter grade (cosmetically not so wonderful) specimens for $136. That 7.62x25mm is one seriously effective round, and it's begging for some modern bullets. Nice to see Zastava producing new copies, just not fast enough. Ruger or Para Odrinance or one of our other quality bargain 1911 factories ought to pick up on the cartridge. Why not? A double stack (18 round) Para Ord version would be impossible to resist. http://www.slickguns.com/search/apachesolr_search/?keys=Yugo+m57&op= That www.slickguns.com site is addictive. (Message edited by Blake on March 24, 2014) | ||
| Rick_a |
I'll agree to disagree with you. What makes the 1911 great is the nearly limitless modularity and flexibility of the design. It's about as perfect a union of cartridge and arm, ever. The Tokarev is no doubt simplified, but calling it an improvement is a stretch. I don't believe the pistol or cartridge are better. I'm no engineer but am working on hand fitting a 1911. The ease at which it can be optimized for accuracy while maintaining reliability is something special. It fires that big cartridge with amazing smoothness and control. The Tokarev, like most com bloc weapons, is optimized for being cheap to produce, for lesser trained personnel to maintain, with a cartridge that favors penetration over terminal effects. The best cartridge the Russians came up with is the 7.62x54R. That venerable cartridge is something I liken to a Russian 30-06. | ||
| Blake |
Oh sure, I wasn't comparing cartridge or feel, just the engineering innovations. The M57's do shoot quite nicely too though. Hey, I now see manufacturers selling 1911s in 9mm. Talk about heresy. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Blake, I've been very close to getting one of those Tokarevs. Aim is 20 minutes from where I work, so I can go there on "will call" days and save shipping / buy direct without FFL. The only thing keeping me from buying it was the fact that I can't reload the ammo. I'm sure dies are available and the S&B brass probably has the right primers, but I expect they would be a hassle. Sticking with .38, .357, .45, .9mm and .22lr would make it easier to stockpile ammo for a nice range of guns. But 7.62x25 would make a really neat round for use in both a handgun and a carbine. I wonder how far apart it is from 9mm. The CZ52 has some pretty cool features... In particular the roller cams for barrel lockup... (pictures here: http://www.harringtonproducts.com/rollers/ ) They are really ugly as built, but if you refinish and replace grips I have seem some that are very neat looking guns. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And since this thread is all over the map also, let me also say how slick the takedown of the Baretta M9 is. One button, one lever, and the slide is off and ready to clean. The captive spring on the Tokarev is very cool though. | ||
| Sifo |
As of this afternoon, I'm down a gun. It's kind of a sad feeling, even though it was far from a favorite gun. Gone is the Beretta Neos. Time to shop for a Ruger 22/45. 22 LR is great for plinking. | ||
| Rick_a |
I love my 22/45. Amazing performance and reliability for an inexpensive gun. While I'd love to have a S&W model 41, the Ruger is lighter, smaller, and more practical.  | ||
| Sifo |
Nice! How are the 1911 switches? Who make those too? First thing I will want to do is defeat the disconnect. Terrible feature IMO! Only question is, should I just drop in an aftermarket trigger too, while taking it apart. I kind of got spoiled by the trigger work on the Neos. Beyond that the Neos just never really gelled with me. I let a co-worker take it home for his wife to try out. He came by with the cash today. Suddenly I feel like something important is missing. It's a weird feeling. Soooo... uhhh... Want to sell it?  | ||
| Blake |
I'm just gonna have Rick commission all my future firearms purchases. The man has impeccable discernment for quality weaponry. I'm a sucker for milsurp antiques. Need a Swiss K31, but may need to settle for a a K11. Why didn't that bolt scheme sweep the industry??? | ||
| Blake |
Hey Rick! Nice crabgrass ya got there. | ||
| Rick_a |
No way. I still have my first batch of handguns purchased on my 21st birthday. That's one of them. A company called Broken Gun Ranch used to make those extended controls. I haven't seen them sold anywhere in years. If you have kids and/or ladies in the house that may want to shoot it as well the "Lite" version is a nice option. Just a hammer and sear makes a huge difference in the trigger, but an over and pre travel adjustable trigger is always nice to have. Back on the AR-10, I came across this old promotional video: https://archive.org/details/AR10_Promotion The original AR-10 only had very limited use worldwide, with most going to the Portuguese and Sudanese special units. At the time the FN FAL and it's variants became the arm of the free world (with the US doggedly sticking to it's guns with the M-14). | ||
| Rick_a |
No antiques for me. My oldest gun is this 1950's 'Smith that I'm still paying off:  It's not the most collectible, but a pre 27 or model 27 in a 3.5" barrel is the best thing S&W ever made in a regular production gun, IMO. That crabgrass is from our old rental property. The lawn was at least 50% weeds. If I were to buy an old mil surp an M1 Garand would be the only thing on my list. | ||
| Sifo |
Good for you Rick. I hope to develop that sort of attachment to my new one too. Lady of the house has her own rimfire BTW.  As well as her own centerfire.  Last week she shot her first .45 1911. She's a bit all over the map on looking into her own semi-auto centerfire right now. Somehow I married well. | ||
| Rick_a |
That's my second favorite 22lr pistol and you can't go wrong with a 327 8-shot. Sounds like you done good. If she likes the 1911 have her try a Browning High Power. That's what my wife settled on. She also wants a PPK and a P22. The PPK I like, but I'm not a huge fan of the cast zinc 22lr. | ||
| Sifo |
So I googled Broken Gun Ranch. I found a picture of Rick's 22/45. Can't find the company though. JBN Enterprises does similar stuff though.  | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
I have one of these hard hitters: Beretta Minx .22 Short  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Taurus makes a very nice cheap alternative to that Beretta for about $200, which makes it nice carry gun that you don't worry about getting wet or beat up. .22lr of course isn't the best defense round, but look at it like being able to stab your attacker with a screwdriver from 15 yards away. The PT22. And it's hard to beat a Ruger .357 revolver for under $500. Shoots .357 when you are in that mood, shoots .38 very comfortably when you are not. Brass stays in cylinder so it is easy to keep to reload in "don't cross firing line even with a broom" shooting ranges. I've taught a lot of people to shoot, and that gun is always one of the favorites. And a .38 chiefs special is impossible and surreal in terms of how accurate it is with that tiny barrel. It must be a quantum physics thing, there is another 3 inches of barrel in some parallel universe somewhere. | ||
| Rick_a |
I recently discovered how well I can shoot a five shot snubbie. The mechanical accuracy is definitely there if you do your part. These pros demonstrate: Munden passed away last year. | ||
| Torquehd |
I find both of those videos hard to believe (that a shot like that could be made without dumb luck, after the 10th or 20th try). Google couldn't tell me; does anyone know the MOA of a snubnose like that? Not saying that wouldn't be a handy gun, just hard to believe the MOA would allow for an accurate shot at that type of range (not to mention operator inadequacy). | ||
| Reepicheep |
I believe it in the hands of a good shooter. Not every shot, but not impossible either. I couldn't believe how accurate those snubbies are, not just in my hands, but in the hands of new shooters as well. | ||
| Sifo |
The short barrel isn't much of a hindrance to accuracy. The short sight radius is what makes it difficult. It's all about the shooter at that point. It's far beyond my abilities. I've see Jerry Miculek in that first video do some pretty impossible stuff. You should see him speed shooting a revolver. That seems impossible to me too, but he does that consistently. Tough to say how many takes may have been involved though. | ||
| Rick_a |
Of course it looks impossible. For most of us it is. Munden was the best trick shooter in modern times and Miculek is considered the best revolver shooter that ever lived. The equipment is capable. That's all shooter. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Shoot some IHMSA pistol competition matches and you will know that those long shots are easy with correct discipline. Five snuff cans ...laying down...were shoot-off targets at 220 yards to settle ties...and that was with open iron sight pistols.Regulation targets were soon standardized for shoot-off...usually 50 meter chicken targets set at 200 meters. I've done in pop cans many a times at 220 yards with an open sight 10" T/C 7mm TCU.It feels as good as riding a wheelie and upshifting............ | ||
| Sifo |
This one's for Aesquire, or anyone else looking at the Remington R51. I would like to see this gun do better. This video makes me want to run from it. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
12 shots from a revolver in 2.99 seconds. Jerry is magic! | ||
| Just_ziptab |
If you have ever shot a Barrett 50 BMG,you know the gun is a beast. I have no idea how Jerry does it,but he can do it with any semi-auto rifle he picks up....... | ||
| Sifo |
The wife's out of town this weekend, so it's left me some time to pay some attention to to some guns. Polished up the sear/striker on the XD(m). Came out better. It's still a stock XD(m) trigger, really long pull, but it's nice and smooth now. Did the same for the AR-15. Similar results, good, not stellar. Then I pulled out the wife's Buckmark. She's been complaining about the safety being impossible to use. For some reason it was REALLY stiff. It requires a pretty complete tear down to get to it though. I found a pretty good step by step guide with some pretty good tips. http://tinyurl.com/ml3gfrk I have to say that the trigger was pretty good to begin with, but now it's fantastic! It's kind of a pain in the neck gun to dissemble for the first time, but after going through it about 5 times fitting the safety lever to work smoothly I got pretty good at it. Well worth the effort. Nice to have those guns nice an clean inside and out too! The XD(m) was filthy in there! | ||
| Rick_a |
We went on a family shooting trip today. Brought my new AR pistol, my Airweight revolver, and the wife's Ruger P89. The wife fired the revolver just a few shots and hated it. I love it. A friend tried it as well and did not like it. I shoot it well and love the heck out of it. At 10 yards in slow fire shots were touching or nearly touching, with a few fliers falling within a 3" circle. At full speed center mass hits are no problem. The 5.56 pistol worked flawlessly and placed shots at will in 100 rounds of 5.56 and in 120 rounds with the 22lr conversion. It ended up quite filthy between the two. Two gray haired gents beside us shot dirty looks as I enthusiastically enjoyed my creation. They complained to the staff and got moved. Oh well, ya can't please everyone. It wasn't as loud as expected but did belch a flame ball that goes nearly unnoticed by the shooter, but quite apparent viewed from the side. The wife and her friend got their introduction to the AR-15 with it. The wife found it awkward but pleasant to shoot. Her friend fired it with the 22lr conversion and looked like a natural. The kid shot up his target with a good degree of control as he deliberately walked his shots up and down the target. That's three people introduced to AR's in short time through a silly pistol thingy. | ||
| Sifo |
DAMN YOU RICK! Beautiful day here to day. First one in months! Fired up the Buell for the first ride of the season and decided to head out to one of the better gun shops as an excuse for a couple hours of riding. Just browsing around and noticed a 9mm AR pistol on the wall. A few months ago this would have gone under my radar. Now I'm thinking. That's NOT good!  They did still have some 22lr in 500 round boxes, one to a customer, so I picked up another box! On a serious note, how's the accuracy with a 22lr conversion in the AR? Is it still pretty good groups at 100 yards? Any idea what the practical limit is with that set up? |
