| Author | Message | ||
     Rocket_in_uk |
It's finally up. Putin's speech. 46 min's (written and video) http://rt.com/politics/official-word/vladimir-puti n-crimea-address-658/ Be careful American's. You might end up in Guantanamo if you've the guts to watch this. Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Could you be wrong? Might the military invasion of a sovereign nation not rightly be viewed as an act of war? If not, why not? Might the massive popular uprising of the people in opposition to tyranny (their words) be a just and laudable action? If not, why not? A Soviet puppet was chased from the country by its citizens, and KGB comrade Putin reacts by invading under Hitleresque pretense of looking after ethnic Russians there? And you approve? I have no words. | ||
| Macbuell |
Rocket, every comment you make finishes with ... What was Russia supposed to do given the circumstances. Well, the short answer is nothing. Ukraine is a sovereign country and they have a right to determine their own fate. If Russia doesn't like it ... Tough shit. Quit making excuses for an aggressive military incursion violating another countries sovereign borders. | ||
| Reindog |
A wee bit of anti-Semitism spilling out, big guy. What does his religion have anything to do with your disparaging remarks about him? You are singing a really old song perfected by the Communists and the Nazis. | ||
| Reindog |
 | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Rocket, every comment you make finishes with ... What was Russia supposed to do given the circumstances. Well, the short answer is nothing. Ukraine is a sovereign country and they have a right to determine their own fate. If Russia doesn't like it ... Tough shit. Quit making excuses for an aggressive military incursion violating another countries sovereign borders. You obviously watched Putin's speech in its 46 minute entirety then. Rocket in England | ||
| Reindog |
What part of the unacceptability of the annexation of part of a sovereign nation do you NOT understand? There was no need to listen to Goebbels in 1938 because enlightened people already knew what he was selling. You can coo to your Soviet masters all you want and screech about evil America but that isn't selling over here. Your hatred of America is getting quiet tedious to borrow your parlance. (Message edited by reindog on March 22, 2014) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
A wee bit of anti-Semitism spilling out, big guy. What does his religion have anything to do with your disparaging remarks about him? You are singing a really old song perfected by the Communists and the Nazis. Good try. Except he's neither a Ukrainian, nor a politician. As for religion, if you care to do your homework, understand that 60% of Ukrainian people are non religious, 30% Eastern Orthodox (Christian). Few Jewish. Nothing to do with a wee bit of anti-Semitism. Not that I'm a fan of the Jewish occupation of Israel. Simply pointing out Ukraine has a non elected jewish Romanian lawyer as acting prime minister. I mean 'they' couldn't have gone any further afield to find someone so impartial to the Ukraine if they'd have advertised the job in America. Oh wait. They probably did. Shucks. Why didn't I realise that earlier. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What part of the unacceptability of the annexation of part of a sovereign nation do you NOT understand? What part of Putin's speech did you not understand? Do you not think for a moment Putin gave his reasons chapter and verse to Obama during those pre referendum phone calls? I'm pretty clear on my history of Crimea. I'm certain Putin and all of Russia are too. How many times must this nation and its representatives tell the west Crimea not only has its history based in Russia, it is inhabited nearly all by Russian people, and it's where Russia's Black Sea Fleet lives. You know. Russia's equivalent to Pearl Harbour. Wake up and get a clue before your country starts yet another war. Something they are experts at when it comes to invading sovereign territories is it not? Shall I list all of the invaded ones since WW2? No let's not. The continuous history lesson of American saviour nearly 100 years ago, and how Putin is Hitler incarnate are rather nauseating quite frankly. Let's just stay with current day shall we. As for me hating America. Be very careful there my friend. You're getting way too personal and need to step away from the keyboard if you're not capable of debating, disagreeing, or arguing the politics of Ukraine on BadWeB without you painting a picture of me which isn't in the slightest bit true. Rocket in America | ||
| Sifo |
when it comes to invading sovereign territories Ummm... Oh never mind. No point in pointing out the obvious... Again. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Could you be wrong? Yes absolutely. But the evidence, and historical facts, do not point to Russia or Putin being the aggressor in this. Might the military invasion of a sovereign nation not rightly be viewed as an act of war? If not, why not? Indeed it may, except in Crimea's case Putin gave a very detailed accountability as to Russia's actions. The west has portrayed this as they being the aggressors. Looking at the history and geopolitics of the region, and the current economic war which is raging, it's not difficult to understand Putin's thinking in this. Ignoring such was only ever going to lead to one course being taken by him. Russia was never going to stand by and watch the west move into Ukraine economically, politically, and geopolitically, and threaten the future of Russia's Black Sea base, nor open up shop next door. Might the massive popular uprising of the people in opposition to tyranny (their words) be a just and laudable action? If not, why not? I'm not sure which part of the world or event you're referring to here as no such event took place in Crimea. But yes, an uprising against tyranny is just and laudable. Of course. A Soviet puppet was chased from the country by its citizens, and KGB comrade Putin reacts by invading under Hitleresque pretense of looking after ethnic Russians there? Well, Soviet puppet is a bit wide of the mark since Putin pointed out said person has been (and not on his own) laundering billions of dollars into a fake Irish investment company for quite some time. Thus destabilising Ukraine's economy by 25% if memory serves, which has forced millions of Ukraine's to seek work across the border in Russia as their own countries economy fails to provide enough pay or jobs to enable them to live anywhere but in poverty. Yes you're correct. Putin is an ex head of the KGB. And? As for Hitleresque. You're wiser than that Blake. Why stoop so low as to name calling him? And you approve? If you mean. do I approve of Putin's efforts to keep peace. Yes I do. Putin said it himself. Must I dig out the quote? He's willing to work and help with NATO, but not on his doorstep. Would America like Russia next door? Welcome to 1963. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
when it comes to invading sovereign territories Ummm... Oh never mind. No point in pointing out the obvious... Again. You won't be a fan of David Lindorff then Sifo? In which case I'll paste his words here. Please do read them  Quote: How Can the US Accuse Russia of Violating International Law? by DAVE LINDORFF If you want to make moral or legal pronouncements, or to condemn bad behavior, you have to be a moral, law-abiding person yourself. It is laughable when we see someone like Rush Limbaugh criticizing drug addicts or a corrupt politician like former Sen. John Ensign (R-NV) voting for more prisons, more cops, and tougher rules against appeals of sentences. The same thing applies to nations. And when it comes to hypocritical nations that make pious criticisms of other countries about the “rule of law” and the sanctity of “international law,” it’s hard to find a better laughing stock than the United States of America. After invading Iraq illegally in 2003, with no sanction from the UN, and no imminent threat being posed by that country to either the US or to any of Iraq’s neighbors, after years of launching bombing raids, special forces assaults and drone-fired missile launches into countries like Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia, and killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, after illegally capturing and holding, without charge or trial, hundreds of people it accuses of being terrorists and illegal combatants, after torturing thousands of captives, the US now accuses Russia of violating international law by sending troops into Crimea to protect a Russian population threatened by a violently anti-Russian Ukrainian government just installed in a coup. How many times has the US sent troops into neighboring countries based upon the claim that it had to protect American citizens during a time of turmoil. We have Grenada in 1983, Panama in 1989, the Dominican Republic in 1965, and Haiti in 2003, for starters. Would the US hesitate for even a moment to send troops into Mexico if the Mexican government were overthrown in an anti-American coup, and if demonstrators who had led to that overthrow were attacking Americans? Of course not. The Panama invasion, and the overthrow and arrest and removal to the US of Panama’s elected President Manuel Noriega, is particularly instructive, as it involved protecting a strategic US overseas base — the US Canal Zone — much as Russia is protecting its naval bases in Crimea, operated under a long-term lease from Ukraine but threatened by the recent Ukrainian coup. The US, headed at the time by President George H.W. Bush, invaded Panama under the pretext of protecting Americans in that country, but the attack (which had been planned well in advance of any threats to Americans) quickly morphed into an overthrow of the Panamanian government, the arrest of its leader, and the installation of a US puppet leader. But the US mocking of international law goes far beyond that. Washington is currently calling, for example, for Mexico to extradite to the US, on drug and murder charges, Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman, the head of the Sinaloa drug cartel. But only weeks earlier, on January 23, Texas executed a Mexican citizen over the protests of the Mexican government, because his rights under international law to have had Mexican authorities notified at the time of his arrest, so that he could have been provided by Mexico with a well-funded attorney for his defense. Instead, Mexico was not notified, he got the usual over-worked, underpaid, and uninvolved public defender, lost his case, and was sentenced to death. International jurists and American legal scholars all called for his execution to be halted, but to no avail. This was not the first time the US has gone ahead with executions of foreign nationals who were not tried in accordance with international law. Such mockery of the rule of law is common in the US. Despite this outrage, the US acts piqued that Mexico is resisting handing over Guzman to US prosecutors, who will undoubtedly be seeking his execution. Of course, we also had, last year, the outrageous case of the US pressuring European countries to bar their airspace to the official jet of the president of Bolivia, Evo Morales, which was ultimately forced to land in Austria, where it was subjected, also under US pressure, to a complete search in a vain attempt to find National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden. US government authorities thought Morales, who had just been on a state visit to Russia, might be flying Snowden back to Bolivia, where he had been offered political asylum. Now this crude interference with the flight of a national head of state, not to mention the searching of his plane, was the height of illegality under international law. A presidential jet, or even limo, like a foreign embassy, is under international law considered to be part of a nation’s territory. Violating it is as much a violation of international law as would be the military invasion and occupation of a piece of a country’s territory. It is in fact an act of war. One need only imagine what would happen if Air Force One, carrying the president of the US, were diverted and forced to land by some foreign nation. Does anyone doubt that the US military would be put on full alert, and that a fleet of bombers and aircraft battle groups would be immediately dispatched to punish the offending nation? What Russia has done, in sending troops into Crimea, is in fact a minor action in terms of international law compared to what the US has done just over the past two decades alone. It’s not as though Ukraine was a functioning nation, after all. Its elected government had just been violently overthrown, and its president hounded out of the country by demonstrations that had included the storming of the presidential palace, and the armed occupation of the parliament building. Under such circumstances, for Russia to have stood idly by while its own Russian nationals as well as ethnic Russians in Crimea, a majority Russian region that until 1954 was a part of Russia, just across the border, were threatened by what is essentially a mob-run government based in Kiev, would have been irresponsible. Moreover, the autonomous regional government in Crimea had actually apparently sought Russian protection from the central “government” in Ukraine. Of course there’s also the matter of the US role — overt and covert — in helping to fund and organize the mobs who ousted the elected government of Ukraine. That too was a violation of international law. For years now, the US has, through its National Endowment for Democracy, US AID, and other government and quasi-government bodies, been funneling money to anti-government groups in Ukraine (as it did also in Egypt and Russia itself, and as it is doing now in Venezuela and other countries whose leaders it opposes). The leaked tape of the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing how to staff the new government of Ukraine after the anticipated collapse of the elected government shows how deeply the US was involved in the undermining of the government of Ukraine. Again, this interference in another country’s political system is a horrendous violation of international law. Just as the same kind of interference and subversion of the elected government of President Nicolás Maduro is in Venezuela, where the US decries government police actions against the street demonstrations by middle class citizens of that country, even as the US has been helping to finance those demonstrations. As I wrote earlier, there is also the hypocrisy of the US criticizing police actions against demonstrators by governments like Maduro’s, while here at home, the US has been increasingly behaving like a banana republic in crushing virtually all domestic dissent. Just look at the brutal federally-coordinated crushing, in cities across the US, of the 2011 Occupy Movement. And look, too, at the federal government’s largely successful efforts to destroy the very right to publicly protest — most recently featuring a Supreme Court ruling saying it is illegal for anti-drone-war activists to protest outside of Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, even on the side of public roads. The US, at this point, after eight years of the Bush/Cheney administration and five years of the Obama administration, has forfeited any right to criticize any country over violations of international law, or even to criticize tyrannical regimes over their repression of their own citizens. The sad truth is that the US no longer has any moral or legal standing at all in the world. It stands these days fully exposed as a naked aggressor and trampler of international law globally and as a police state at home. from counterpunch..... http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/04/how-can-the -us-accuse-russia-of-violating-international-law/ Rocket in England | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I guess that's ONE way you can look at it.  | ||
| Aesquire |
http://news.yahoo.com/britons-rate-russia-more-pos itively-eu-poll-shows-003103687.html;_ylt=AwrTWfx3PS5TkwEAwQHQtDMD Britons rate Russia more positively than EU, poll shows This actually makes sense. Russia only threatened to turn the British Isles into seething radioactive fire. The EU has actually done serious damage.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/u kraine/10716235/Defiant-Ukrainian-soldiers-sing-na tional-anthem-as-Russian-troops-storm-their-base-i n-Crimea.html Smart Ukranian Soldiers. RE: Lindorf's article. Guys has a couple of good points. We really should fire, and if need be exile a major portion of the US government. Actually it may be needful to exile them. It would be cheaper to all chip in and buy them tickets for an all expense paid vacation in Rio. ( It's not like we have to actually pay their expenses after they get on the planes. Just like they don't plan to actually pay us back for the money they stole from us. ) Never let them come back. Oh, Sanctions are needed too. Freeze and take the bank accounts and all holdings of the Executive & Legislative branch. I'll let Rocket tell them they won the Grand prize. A lot of Lindorf's argument is bogus, though. For Example... Would the US hesitate for even a moment to send troops into Mexico if the Mexican government were overthrown in an anti-American coup, and if demonstrators who had led to that overthrow were attacking Americans? Of course not. First, like the marvelous example of Comrade Putin shows us, you have to keep the border nations friendly and allies. Second, I thought the Mexican Government WAS anti-American. And..... Wasn't it Putin himself who complained that Obama was Communist? That his ideology was bad? ( It may have been a different Russian.... they all look alike when there is no picture to go with the headline ) As to the Jewish occupation of Israel IIRC that is on England. Mostly. Plus the Arab nations that created the "Palestine Refugee" situation for their own purposes. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I guess that's ONE way you can look at it. You're almost convinced Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373856/empty -threat-future-judgment-jonah-goldberg The right side of history is bunk. In domestic politics, people (mostly liberals) tend to say, “You’re on the wrong side of history” about social issues that are breaking their way. It’s a handy phrase, loosely translated as, “You’re going to lose eventually, so why don’t you give up now?” To be fair, the author of this piece has an accurate grasp of Obama's wisdom. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373617/not-y our-fathers-cold-war-jonah-goldberg It turns out, the Berlin Wall wasn’t blocking us from a new world order, it was holding back the tide of history. Western Europe was especially slow to realize this. Its politicians and intellectuals persuaded themselves that they had created a continental “zone of peace” through diplomacy, when in reality they were taking U.S. protection for granted. They let their militaries atrophy to the point of being little more than ceremonial. The contrast with Russia and China (not to mention Iran and Saudi Arabia) is amazing. In Moscow and Beijing, they still believe foreign policy is about military and economic power, “spheres of influence,” formal alliances, and political control. In Western Europe (and much of this administration), it’s about moral authority, international norms, and other kinds of “soft power.” Soft power is great, but it’s useless against people who respect only hard power. And that lesson predates the Cold War by a few millennia. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You don't half read some shit Patrick. If you want an opinion on soft power, here's a pretty frank and candid quickie from America's least favourite British MP, George Galloway. A tad ironically, it's from December 13. Do enjoy some home truths. http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_12_29/The-US-is-a-kn uckle-dragging-low-grade-moronic-culture-George-Ga lloway-7718/ Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Britons rate Russia more positively than EU, poll shows What's the point? Said poll from January. I expect the result would be ever more supportive of Russia had it been conducted this Saturday. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Why is the EU, bolstered by the US and UK, so keen to get it's hands on a country raped of its economy by its leaders for the past decades, leaving a country of mainly poorly paid or no paid no work populous, such is Ukraine, when Spain as part of the EU is economically crippled and has been for years now. The propaganda filled news is well reported of Russian military using force to expel Ukrainian military from a now Russian base in Crimea. One Ukrainian soldier slightly injured, as no real force was used. Spain, 101 are injured whilst protesting against EU austerity. Yep the EU really needs the Ukrainian money making machine onboard, though no economist could tell us why. Perhaps because wanting Ukraine has nothing to do with economics. http://rt.com/news/spain-protest-cuts-crisis-509/ Rocket in England | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
This (U.S.) is knuckle-dragging, low grade moronic culture I think you all over in Europe ought to look in the mirror. I agree, the United States is devolving into a cesspool of morons but the same can be said of most nations. The world in general appears to be becoming dumber. One thing America has on it's side is it's size. It will take our culture longer to disappear then say, Great Britain. You morons will be living under Sharia law a lot sooner. | ||
| Sifo |
You won't be a fan of David Lindorff then Sifo? Not a fan is an understatement. That was nothing but half truths, and less than half truths. Liars suck! That's who you want to align yourself with? Why is the EU, bolstered by the US and UK, so keen to get it's hands on a country raped of its economy by its leaders for the past decades, leaving a country of mainly poorly paid or no paid no work populous, such is Ukraine, when Spain as part of the EU is economically crippled and has been for years now. I won't speak for the UK, but trust me, here in the US, Ukraine was not on our radar at all. We have no designs on getting our hands on them. Had they had a referendum on their own to join Russia, it would most likely have passed as a minor headline. When Russia occupied their country, and forced a referendum under their watch, that's far from the free will of the people. That does raise out hackles. It's a shame it doesn't do the same for Europe. They will suffer most from turning a blind eye to this. Useful idiots who support this will fare no better. | ||
| Reindog |
RIE: Your words speak for themselves. You are clearly pro-Russia, anti-America, and possibly anti-Semitic. There is no need for you to get emotional and order me what to do or not do. It says a lot about your character. Again, what part of the danger to everyone when a totalitarian nation invades and annexes a sovereign nation do you NOT understand? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I think you all over in Europe ought to look in the mirror. I agree, the United States is devolving into a cesspool of morons but the same can be said of most nations. The world in general appears to be becoming dumber. One thing America has on it's side is it's size. It will take our culture longer to disappear then say, Great Britain. You morons will be living under Sharia law a lot sooner. Perhaps you're right given the point said by many is it's America's fault for making the world dumber. Dumber being your word for whatever 'it' is. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You won't be a fan of David Lindorff then Sifo? Not a fan is an understatement. That was nothing but half truths, and less than half truths. Liars suck! That's who you want to align yourself with? I'm all ears. Which are Lindorff's half truths, and less than half truths? What is he lying about? Please do tell, though I bet you can't. I won't speak for the UK, but trust me, here in the US, Ukraine was not on our radar at all. We have no designs on getting our hands on them. Had they had a referendum on their own to join Russia, it would most likely have passed as a minor headline. When Russia occupied their country, and forced a referendum under their watch, that's far from the free will of the people. That does raise out hackles. It's a shame it doesn't do the same for Europe. They will suffer most from turning a blind eye to this. Useful idiots who support this will fare no better. Trust you? Comments like this just show how ignorant of the facts you are. America is not denying their involvement in Ukraine affairs. America's been openly involved in the economic battle to wrestle Ukraine into the EU rather than Ukraine sway toward Russia. All this well before the issue and catalyst which forced Crimea to take its future into its own hands rather than Ukraine swallow it up as part of the mess. The mess which west and east Ukraine are still embroiled in. Two very different nations of people within one troubled nation. I should imagine Crimeans are counting themselves fortunate to be part of Russia again. I mean, for a nation said to have been involved in an illegal referendum, and a nation of people known for their protesting, should we not be amazed we are not hearing of Crimean uprisings and street protests at the very least? You would think so wouldn't you, unless they're all under some strict Russian control. Worse still. Their lives under threat from the big bad black bear. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
RIE: Your words speak for themselves. You are clearly pro-Russia, anti-America, and possibly anti-Semitic. There is no need for you to get emotional and order me what to do or not do. It says a lot about your character. Oh I get it. You mean you get to decide, rather like your country does, as to who is what, and what is right or wrong. There are several comments in this topic from individuals who do nothing but cement, all be it on a much tinier scale, the way your country works around the world. If you don't like what you hear you label the source, be it man or country, as something bad so all will condemn them. You sure do have a handle on US foreign affairs. Again, what part of the danger to everyone when a totalitarian nation invades and annexes a sovereign nation do you NOT understand? You mean America right? Rocket in England | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Why are the Russian Military and some citizens of Crimea treating the Ukrainian Military like the enemy or criminals that do not belong there?? Why don't the worldly kind and gentle Russian Military give the Ukrainian Military the time and means to retreat back to their other bases with their assets?? Why treat them like enemy or criminals,...that is what Putin and the Russian are doing. Putin put his troops in areas, where he wanted.. then he got the vote in,.. Now Crimea is part of Russia... goodie gum drops. It may not be so much what he did/does... it's the method. (which has no parallels to the USA in that story you posted) I think Putin just wants his own version of Disneyland and Hollywood. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Why are the Russian Military and some citizens of Crimea treating the Ukrainian Military like the enemy or criminals that do not belong there?? Why don't the worldly kind and gentle Russian Military give the Ukrainian Military the time and means to retreat back to their other bases with their assets?? Why treat them like enemy or criminals,...that is what Putin and the Russian are doing. Ignoring the US spin / propaganda, Voice of America might enlighten you as to what went on. http://www.voanews.com/content/russia-backs-osce-i n-ukraine-not-crimea/1876873.html Then you can hear it from The Voice of Russia. Of course, you'll need to ignore the spin / propaganda too http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_23/US-criminally- invades-countries-without-pretext-Bruce-Gagnon-326 7/ Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Putin put his troops in areas, where he wanted.. then he got the vote in,.. Now Crimea is part of Russia... goodie gum drops. It may not be so much what he did/does... it's the method. (which has no parallels to the USA in that story you posted) So, ignoring ALL news reports and other sources of information, you believe Putin sent Russian forces into Crimea. Took control of a nations people. Millions then. Forced them into an illegal referendum where 97% of those voting, 84% of the population, voted in favour of becoming Russian citizens in a Russian nation. Do you believe you speak for many American's? Rocket in England | ||
| Xdigitalx |
That's all fine. Seems like it is pretty much a done deal if everybody lays off the Vodka. BUT I am sure you know... he can not continue. (He can have Ukraine as far as I am concerned... give him all east of river), But just do not cross any Nato countries... then he will be up a creek. |
