| Author | Message | ||
     Xdigitalx |
If only Mexico had an army like Putin,... | ||
| Sifo |
Thus far I've seen nothing which suggests the voting was anything but DEMOCRATICALLY carried out. Russia sends troops into Crimea. Russia sets up a referendum. Invading Russian troops stand guard at the polling places. The vote has historic turnout, and and amazingly lopsided result. Yeah, that sounds like democracy.  In other words the EU (UK and US included) are provoking Putin into a fight. Yes, nothing "provokes a fight" like pointing out the tyrant invading sovereign nations. | ||
| Court |
Well . . at least the Russians are reasonable sorts of folks . . . . that comment about leveling the United States into a pile of radioactive dust is the type of thing that just cries peaceful negotiation. The good news is . . . . the Russians could be brought to their knees with the Keystone pipeline, some banking restrictions and telling their wealthy (there are tons of them thanks to some chicanery) they can't get to The Hamtons this summer. | ||
| Reindog |
Sorry this is tedious for you, Rocket. Chin up, lad. Understanding tyranny is hard, just like math for some. How is this any different from the Sudeten Germans who "yearned" for freedom in 1938? Now to gobble up Eastern Ukraine and then the remainder of Ukraine. Feel free to tediously blame the EU and the United States of America. A 97% vote leaning in one direction is suspect at best. There were voter anomalies, invading Russian troops guarded the polling places, and segments of the population boycotted the election. When I was in the Teamsters Union, there were elections for the President of the Union. One had to go to the Union Hall to vote and I swear every door was guarded by a guy named Cheech. Care to guess how the vote went? At least Rocket hasn't called anyone who disagrees with him a racist...yet. | ||
| Sifo |
Sorry, I forgot to also mention the build up of even more troops at the border. | ||
| Aesquire |
Just to refresh my memory. When was the last time that Russia dealt honestly with Europe? When they had a Czar? | ||
| Britchri10 |
Russia has never been an honest broker in it's relations with anyone. (To be fair, no other nation ever has either - it's all governed by self-interest first.) This "situation" will not get better or worse in the long run. Whatever the outcome, it will be what it will be. No one is going to go to war for this & no one is going to be completely satisfied with the outcome. Some of us more sensible folk ran away from Europe just so's we could avoid all of this nonsense. Chris C | ||
| Aesquire |
That describes most Americans. Or their parents. .. grandparents. .... (Message edited by aesquire on March 17, 2014) | ||
| Xdigitalx |
No one is going to go to war for this .... Ok then...what is THIS?? When will THIS stop?? Will anyone ever try to stop THIS?? If so....when?? | ||
| Britchri10 |
Domino theory died with the demise of US involvement in Vietnam. Russia will continue to try to re-establish itself into something akin to what it was prior to the fall of the Berlin wall. There are too many economic ties involved in the interrelationship between Russia and the West & too much destructive power on both sides for the current situation to devolve into a shooting war. Both sides will play the "brinkmanship" game & will look to play third parties off against the main protagonists (East & West) & nothing concrete will happen. There are too many people too afraid to do anything other than cajole, threaten, bribe or pontificate. The world will become a less friendly place & humankind will go forward into whatever awaits it. Less security for all. More reliance on the controlling factors on both sides by the general populace & millionaires will continue to make money off the back of all the players insecurities. But, what do I know? Chris C | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
A referendum on the status of Crimea was held on March 16, 2014 by the legislature of Crimea as well as by the local government of Sevastopol, both subdivisions of Ukraine. Regionally, Crimea has a long and complex history whose demographics have undergone dramatic changes. The referendum asked the people of these regions whether they wanted to join Russia as a federal subject, or if they wanted to restore the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine. The 1992 constitution accords greater powers to the Crimean parliament including full sovereign powers to establish relations with other states. The parliament previously made a declaration where it expressed its desire to return Crimea to Russia. The available choices did not include keeping the status quo of Crimea and Sevastopol as they were at the moment the referendum was held. The referendum was characterized by widespread condemnation in the Western world regarding its legitimacy and the events surrounding it, drawing a parallel with the current illegal occupation of Islas Malvinas, primarily that one of the choices was seeking to join Russia while both Crimea and Sevastopol were under a military intervention by Russia itself. Furthermore, both the Crimean parliament and the city council of Sevastopol considered the referendum legitimate as they consider the ousting of the former President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, to be illegal, arguing that it did not follow due process. Because of this, the bodies argued that they had to enquire of its people what they wanted of their future. The European Union, United States, Canada and several other nations, in contrast, recognized the newly appointed interim government in Ukraine and condemned the actions taken by Crimea and Sevastopol, including the referendum. In addition, the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People - the unofficial political association of the Crimean Tatars - called for a boycott of the referendum. The United Nations Security Council failed to adopt a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, as Russia exercised its right to veto as a permanent member of the council. The vote on this resolution was 13 in favor of adopting the resolution, 1 veto (Russia), and one abstention (China). Preliminary results indicated that over 90% of voters supported the choice to join Russia with a turnout of over 80%. The Republic of Crimea declared its independence from Ukraine the next day and started seeking UN recognition. On the same day, Russia recognized Crimea as a sovereign state. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
And this really does not remind you of any past actions by former regimes? | ||
| Britchri10 |
Of course it does. History repeats itself. Views on the timing of the cycles differ but everything that has gone before will occur again. Lessons are never learned, so the same mistakes are made again and again. If you want to know the future, look to the past. Chris C | ||
| Sifo |
No one is going to go to war for this .... Not over this specifically. Proxy wars will continue to be armed and fought. No doubt other power grabs will happen in the not too distant future. Suddenly something will launch a skirmish that spirals out of control, and everyone has a dumbfounded look wondering how it ever got that way. We are seeing how. | ||
| Britchri10 |
I was referring to a direct military confrontation between Russia & the West. Proxy wars are serious but they are sideshows to the main confrontation. As I said, history repeats itself. You, I & many more board members could cite examples of proxy wars between the two main protagonists ad nauseam. Since WW II & the advent of nuclear weapons no proxy war has escalated into global confrontation. It won't this time. Again, what do I know? Chris C | ||
| Airbozo |
I work with a couple of people from the Ukraine and they were telling me that there is a standing order to allow up to 25,000 Russian troops into the country at any given time. Historically there have only been very few troops, mostly for diplomatic security reasons, but that number has fluctuated over time. Can anyone confirm this? I can not find anything about it from my limited searches (my google-fu is weak I guess). On another note, they seemed to be nonchalant about the Crimea referendum merely saying, "well, if that is what they want, then that is their choice". Total non-issue for them. They still call the Ukraine their home and have friends and family there, but don't seem that bothered by the current events. Is the US and the rest of the world blowing this out of proportion? | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/17/r ussia-will-sanction-u-s-officials.html Now if only Americans would sanction US Senators. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/russ ian-deputy-pm-laughs-at-obamas-sanctions/ Nothing like being a laughing stock. Rocket confuses our Glorious Leader and his diplomatic Genius with actual American's attitudes. Yes, Rocket I am being sarcastic about the Divine Wisdom of The O. Funny, I'd think that anyone who buys what's on Russian Propaganda tv would LUV our Glorious Leader. I suppose he's so lame that some newspapers in England noticed. Helps that he's soooooo not an anglophile. And yeah. Russian propaganda tv. When the talking heads tell you that they are mad enough to quit, on the air, and risk probable murder by Putin's minions Because it's propaganda tv, then I believe them. The real pity is so few US "reporters" have the cojones or smarts to know they are part of The O's propaganda machine. I suppose that ardent supporters of Socialism back in the 1935-45 era had the same blind spots as they do today. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-17/obama-imp oses-sanctions-on-seven-top-russians-after-crimea- vote.html How about we get Syria to broker a deal? ( do I have to say I'm being sarcastic here? ) Maybe Obama will send Putin an Ipod with his greatest speeches. Just like the most lame diplomatic gift ever he gave to the Queen of England. I am pretty sure there's a mental illness code for that. If there isn't, there will be. | ||
| Britchri10 |
Mental illness code:look under"narcissism". (& I'm a guy most of you would call a liberal) | ||
| Reindog |
No one is going to go to war for this .... I hope not, but remember World War I wasn't "supposed" to happen either. The centennial of August 1914 is just a few mortar rounds away, lads. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
And now they are burning books, anything that is in the state library for Ukrainian language, art, history, literature. ... we will never learn | ||
| Aesquire |
Gee that brings back such happy memories. Rocket...... remind you of anything? | ||
| Reindog |
The Russian bastards tried to eradicate the Estonian language and history when the USSR occupied and tried to settle in Estonia. I know a lot of Estonians and they are hard partiers who wouldn't think twice about stringing up the New Russoviets. It is appalling how some Westerners can throw their haunches and rumps in the air to justify the annexation of a sovereign nation by a belligerent usurper. Perhaps this is why I ride a Uly. I stand tall in the saddle riding a 'Merican bike and proud of the American Way. Five months to August, 2014. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
And this really does not remind you of any past actions by former regimes? Why this fascination with history? Today is today. It happened. Accept it. Putin, pushed or not, was in a corner the EU and associates have been instrumental in getting him into. On what planet do you come from if you're a person that believes Putin, or any other Russian leader if it were not Putin, would allow Crimea to slip into the hands of the west? Rocket confuses our Glorious Leader and his diplomatic Genius with actual American's attitudes. I'm disappointed you think me so stupid and misinformed Patrick  Rocket in England | ||
| Reindog |
I don't think you are stupid, Rocket, if you care a tinker's dam what I think. You are as cool as a Buell .... mostly. (Message edited by reindog on March 17, 2014) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I understand it - you want to devalue and subjugate a population - the best way it to devalue their history, teachings, traditions and accomplishments It is why the library at Alexandria was burned. If you can find value and exceptionalism in a culture that you are trying to impose your will upon - your argument has less validity. And in a generation or two of low information masses - they will forget that there ever was another way. It is a tale as old as time itself. (we are doing the same thing to our nation with Common Core - but that is a different Meme; though for the same ends) | ||
| Aesquire |
Why this fascination with history? My experience is that history doesn't really repeat itself, but it rhymes. Like bad rap. When you have an aggressive, authoritarian nation that has a past history of "liberations" leading to, oh, howabout we look at the Ukraine? How many million people were deliberately murdered? In that ONE country? Will Putin starve the Kulaks to force collectivization of the farmland? Really doubtful. The only part of the Soviet agricultural system is the truck farms farmers were allowed to work on after their duty to the Soviet People was complete. More than half the food, from a fraction of the land. Still, it worked before. Got rid of a LOT of native speaking Ukrainians. More likely is Putin will punish the "west" for it's insolence by crashing the economy. Just enough. When your home heating bill doubles in April ( after a flood & snow filled March ) are you going to praise the Russian Leader for his restraint? Perhaps not, we'll see. History and cold hearted 20/20 vision looking backwards tell us that we could have saved hundreds of millions of Russian lives if we had gone to war with the Soviets in 1945, even though we would have had to slaughter entire cities to eradicate that plague upon the Earth. We didn't, and now it's not 1945. Too late for those generations enslaved and murdered. China also invites a regretful look back. Nuking Peking would have killed less people than Mao by many multiples. Back in 1950. Bit late to save those millions today. Few people knew THEN how evil, how murderous, those regimes would be. But some did. They failed to convince others, and the war weary free nations refused to keep fighting. At the end of WW2, that was the US, & the UK. ( the South American nations together couldn't have stopped a fraction of the UK army ) How many lives since then have been snuffed out in proxy wars in Africa, South America, Asia? All because we chose to live with this evil, to ignore the lies, to stick our head in the sand and let it all happen. Others have brought up the Socialists in Germany and how a burning desire for peace at any costs on the part of the inbred Neville led to his ego driven plan to "personally" appeal to Herr Hitler to be a nice guy. What self indulgent crap! So I look at John Kerry, know he's been a traitor to his country. ( gave aid and comfort to the enemy by participating in mock peace talks WITH THE ENEMY in a foreign land for propaganda purposes. Not for protesting a war the Freaking French left us ) Know that Kerry, and the man he represents believe that their magnificence will overawe the uncultured Europeans and impose Obama's will by Nietzschean force of will. Make Chamberlain look like a rational guy. Dang. I'm disappointed you think me so stupid and misinformed Patrick : ( Sorry, hard to sort your attitude from the flack you are unfairly getting just because you live in England. That's not fair. Although I might ask for my ancestral homeland back the darned English took from my ancestors......... Pity it's not got a great castle or anything....  But you might expect that from a guy whose ancestor was one of the last to be sentenced to be drawn & quartered by the British Crown. ( he got a reprieve ) Also, near as I can tell, you believe that the EU is the aggressor, based on Russian Propaganda. Now, that might be true. Most Americans have no idea what the tossers in Belgium are up to. But without some other reference than Russian propaganda, which any fool should know to disbelieve, or at least be highly skeptical of, ( like MSNBC ) how do we know that to be true? It may be true that the EU is an evil entity that deserves to be killed before it too slaughters millions of people in forced labor camps to make the Brussels Aristocracy Supreme over all you peasants. Let us know before it's too late, please. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Also, near as I can tell, you believe that the EU is the aggressor, based on Russian Propaganda. Now, that might be true. Most Americans have no idea what the tossers in Belgium are up to. But without some other reference than Russian propaganda, which any fool should know to disbelieve, or at least be highly skeptical of, ( like MSNBC ) how do we know that to be true? Watching Putin live on TV right now, I think by the time you hear his speech in its entirety, you'd be wishing Obama could be the statesman, politician, and diplomat, Putin is. As for propaganda. It seems the west may just have put Putin up on a pedestal by their own dumb egg on face actions. Time will tell, no doubt. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't have to hear Putin's speech. Heard a few minutes of Obama's. Statesman? Diplomat? Not Obama's strong points. Doubt he gives a darn. Politician? He did get "elected" to the job. Twice. And because the Social Justice Dept. refuses to investigate, there is no evidence that the massive voter fraud in the last election actually changed the outcome. So he's a successful politician, in that he got enough people to believe his lies to get the job. A crappy politician in that he has no interest in making deals or compromising to get his way. He's not the first narcissist tyrant who got power on lies, he won't be the last..... and the results are seldom pretty. Like the ever increasing unemployment, ever increasing taxes, and ever increasing loss of freedom as multiple agencies send their heavily armed commando wannabe private armies out to attack the Enemies of The O. Then again, IIRC Herr Hitler gave much better speeches than Neville Longbottom... I mean Chamberlain. ....up on a pedestal by their own dumb egg on face actions. you could well be right on that. A little scary how enamored you are with Putin though. It's the bare chested horseback pictures, isn't it?  http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/ comment/how-neville-chamberlains-words-haunt-the-c rimean-crisis When Nazi Germany annexed the area of German-speaking Czechoslovakia known as the Sudetenland in spring 1938, the response from the now discredited British prime minister Neville Chamberlain summed up the parochial view of many to events in central Europe at the time. He described the incident as “a quarrel in a faraway country between people of which we know nothing”. Modern politicians would do well to learn from Mr Chamberlain’s folly. | ||
| Reindog |
I agree. Putin is "smart". Just like Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler were.  | ||
| Reindog |
Buffett is giving out $1B for the correct bracket. He would go broke with this one.  |
