| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Sifo. There's not too much tyranny in Canada, but thanks for the over zealous hyperbole all the same. The link was provided for a reason. Seizing what were legal weapons is not tyranny? I guess we have a very different view of tyranny. This is from last week BTW, not from some time way back. How about because it's a learned skill like darts, bowling, or golf. Except it can save lives. The AR pistol Rick built isn't my style, but is a great choice for a defensive weapon in many situations. The PS90 would likely be more to my taste though. I've already covered reasons why I think the ammo it shoots can be a great choice. Real bad for the bad guy, but not likely to be bad for your neighbor. That's something your revolver just isn't so good at. Still, I have a couple of revolvers, and they are a hoot. I've even had them next to the bed when my first choice wasn't available for that purpose. It's not often, but it happens. Oh, and the tyranny thing. It's real. | ||
| Aesquire |
There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload Howard Taylor, "Schlock Mercenary"  | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Rick_a |
This is an example of gelatin testing of the 50gr Barnes TSX:  5.7mm from a PS90 rifle: 
The .223 looks pretty impressive in comparison. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'd like to see a .22 Magnum Rimfire test as well. ( Kel-tec PMR-30 comes to mind ) Oh, look thanks to Rick_a. http://www.brassfetcher.com/22%20Magnum/22%20Magnu m.htm I'm not calling the .22 magnum a perfect defensive round. It's on the light side by any measure, but there are tiny guns for it that make it an available choice when concealment is difficult and something is better than nothing. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I've been meaning to track down a PMR30 too. So many guns, so little money. | ||
| Rick_a |
In my limited research it seems the 5.7mm cartridge is optimal in a short barrel (such as the pistol and the PDW length barrel).  In 16" barrel velocities (as in the earlier post) it appears that yaw happens early and penetration is severely limited. I definitely prefer the 5.56 as a PDW caliber. While there's only a handful of loads that are suitable for serious uses and the noise and blast can be excessive, practice ammo is always readily available and relatively inexpensive. Sharing the caliber with other firearms, being set up to reload, and the ability to use a 22lr conversion makes it a win/win for me. I had the fortune of picking up a 325rd can of 22lr today at a reasonable price. Life is good  One of these years that stuff should get easy to come by again. | ||
| Macbuell |
I own 3 pistors, an AR-15 and a Kel Tec Sub 2000. After putting plenty of rounds through all of them, I am convinced the Kel Tec is the best home defense weapon I own. It's light, small, easy to use, incredibly accurate, especially with the laser sight I mounted, and can hold 33 rounds. And, the 9MM ammo coming out of a 16 inch barrel has the same power as a .357 handgun round. So plenty of stopping power as well. I love the AR and it would be my weapon of choice if the SHTF but for pretty much anything else I might encounter at home, I will be grabbing the Kel Tec. That being the case I have been thinking of adding a 9MM AR with a 10" barrel to my collection. | ||
| Rick_a |
Test fired the little fella today. Works perfectly with .223 but won't set off rounds with the 22lr conversion. I'll have to work on that without increasing the trigger pull. I'll try lightening the hammer first then a stronger hammer spring if that fails. If all else fails I'll be shopping for a fancy trigger. The muzzle device works as advertised and it's a pleasure to shoot. I'm not a fan of pistol caliber carbines. Short rifle calibers have more power, much more range, a flatter trajectory, and are much less likely to over penetrate. The only downsides are noise and blast. | ||
| Blake |
I agree. The more firepower the better. I never really got all the handwringing about "over-penetration." There isn't a magic bullet that will stop a bad guy but not penetrate a few pitiful layers of gypsum board without retaining full lethality. Good grief, I can put my fist through gypsum board. If people/person(s) are in harm's way behind the bad guy, then if prudent, hold fire accordingly. I think what we forget is that most likely, civilian defensive use of a firearm is likely to be very up close and personal, possibly amidst violent physical struggle. With the non-trivial probability that an attacker is XXXL sized, ought one really be more concerned about over-penetration than stopping power? And now with class III soft body available for a few hundred dollars, well if I was a home invader in Texas, I'd be wearing it! The AR and AK pistols and the bull pups make a LOT of sense for home defense. A good dog is probably the best idea of all. Not many common home invaders are willing to confront a good sized dog alerting on the other side of the door. There is no better alarm system. | ||
| Sifo |
I never really got all the handwringing about "over-penetration." I wouldn't call it hand wringing, at least not in my case. Fascination is closer to it. Simply being responsible is part of it too. Bottom line, everyone's home is a somewhat unique situation. I'm looking at two weapons that I already own and simply reconsidering which might be the best choice in certain circumstances. That reconsideration is sparked by information that I was previously unaware of. From what I know of you, I would think that you would appreciate the thought behind that. There isn't a magic bullet that will stop a bad guy but not penetrate a few pitiful layers of gypsum board without retaining full lethality. Good grief, I can put my fist through gypsum board. Granted, that's easy to do. Unless you hit the stud. At your best though, you won't penetrate into the neighbors home. A fist is different that a bullet though, and bullets vary greatly. If people/person(s) are in harm's way behind the bad guy, then if prudent, hold fire accordingly. Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to check with the neighbors exactly where they are in their home when I feel the need to shoot an intruder. I think what we forget is that most likely, civilian defensive use of a firearm is likely to be very up close and personal, possibly amidst violent physical struggle. With the non-trivial probability that an attacker is XXXL sized, ought one really be more concerned about over-penetration than stopping power? And now with class III soft body available for a few hundred dollars, well if I was a home invader in Texas, I'd be wearing it! It's the probability that it will up close and violent that would have me most worried about a round missing my target. If I thought the bad guy would stand still for me to fire at him, I would be very comfortable with my ability to nail him no problem. Knowing that it won't go that way has me considering, before hand, what will happen to any rounds I fire. The 5.56/.223 round offers pretty decent stopping power, especially with a round designed for that purpose. Military rounds are simply the wrong choice. We don't have the same restrictions as the military though. Body armor? That's a real possibility. That's one more check mark in favor of the 5.56/.223 round over the 9mm. Glad you brought it up. A good dog is probably the best idea of all. Not many common home invaders are willing to confront a good sized dog alerting on the other side of the door. There is no better alarm system. Oddly, many years ago, I read a study about that. It seems that dogs can get trained to key off of the pack leader. If the pack leader doesn't get alarmed, neither does the dog. The study detailed several instances of home that were broken into while everyone inside slept. The home owners couldn't believe that their dogs had not woken them up. This study didn't try to get into what percentage of dogs will alert vs. those that don't, so I have no idea about that. Clearly, not all dogs react the same way. | ||
| Rick_a |
Military 5.56 actually works quite well as long as there's enough velocity for fragmentation. It's a fallacy that just because it's a fmj it is no good. http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pd f While, as asserted, anything that penetrates flesh and bone will penetrate a fair amount of building materials, contrary to popular belief the small, light, and fast rifle rounds will do so much less than even JHP pistol ammo. That said it is imperative and a very basic rule to know your target and what is behind it. As a trend the 9mm has been largely abandoned for carbine use and the submachine gun is a dying breed. I'll be attempting to get my 22lr conversion working so that I don't get such funny looks from the neighbor | ||
| Sifo |
Military 5.56 actually works quite well as long as there's enough velocity for fragmentation. It's a fallacy that just because it's a fmj it is no good. I wouldn't say it's no good, but IMO, it's not as good as other options that are readily available. I don't have the restrictions that the military does, and I also don't have the same intended terminal ballistics. | ||
| Rick_a |
In my context of a defensive AR, a lot of money has been spent by the .gov searching for something better, just to prove that within 50 yards of anything having a 10.3" barrel or longer, everything behaves quite similarly. For my little guy, fancier ammo would be required for such uses, but I will likely not need such ammo. The Sub2k is a great little carbine. It'd be a perfect backpack gun. Maybe if they made one in 10mm? | ||
| Macbuell |
They make it in .45ACP and .40. I don't think I have seen a 10MM version. I picked up mine generally with my wife in mind. She won't go near the AR and I am not going to force something on her. This is far less intimidating for her for many reasons. And, with the 16 inch barrel, offers more power, improved accuracy and less felt recoil. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
My collection grew by 1/2 too. I got a AAC .300 Blackout upper(with bbc) from Midway for $462.00 ...course,the next week they went on sale for $399.00  | ||
| Blake |
I don't like my neighbors. Kidding. We do all have brick veneer homes. One has solid concrete inside of that. I call it "Fort Kilgore." Yes, a "watchdog", not just any doggy. Didn't mean to pick on anyone in particular. But you're a fun collateral target.  I'm still waiting for the PS90. | ||
| Sifo |
I don't like my neighbors that much, but I don't want to shoot them. No doubt a brick home changes things from what I have. Everyone's situation will be at least slightly different from other folks. There are other things to consider too, at least for my situation. If I'm holed up in my bedroom with an intruder coming in, the AR would be an easy weapon to use from the other side of the bed room. The red dot sight on it will make it even easier, even in low light when the sights on my pistol would be unseen. OTOH, when you are awakened by the doorbell and look out from the bedroom window to see a guy dressed all in black, with a black hat, and wind up going downstairs to see whatsup, the AR is a bit clumsy, while the 9mm is easy to have right behind the door jamb when opening the door. That's a real life situation I had, not all that long ago BTW. Turned out to be the neighbor that I really don't want to shoot telling me I left my garage door open. He found that to be unusual enough to check out what was going on. He never had a clue that I answered the door with a gun. Took a few hours for my alert level to drop to where I could sleep again though. This is kind of like those "why would you ever need more than one bike" discussions. My mom BTW, has two dogs that bark at anything and everything. That's worse than a dog that fails to bark IMO. | ||
| Sifo |
These discussion do make me think about the wisdom of clearing your house if you think you may have had an intruder. I know it's typical to say leave it to the professionals to clear the house. Just hole up in a safe place and call for help. While that makes perfect sense, I always wonder what they will do to enter the house. In my case, to answer the door from my bedroom, I would have to come down a staircase that has me exposed on both sides. Not a great situation at all. Same problem clearing the house on my own though. Just have the police break down the door? Thoughts? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Pfft. If I am in a "need to clear the house" scenario, they can drive a truck through the front wall if that's what they feel like they need to do to clear it. It's just a house, I'll fix it. Note todays headline of a dad who shot a 17 year old boy in his daughters bed. He found him, the daughter jumped out and said she didn't know him, and dad thought he saw a threatening movement and opened fire. 17 year old boy is now dead, daughter admits to lying, dad is devestated. Not saying who is right or wrong, but all three principals no doubt have incredible regrets as a result. If retreat isn't possible, do what is necessary to save your family. But try really really really hard to retreat first. | ||
| Rick_a |
Typical response time is 10-15 mins. That's a lot of time for things to go wrong. I have done such things as a profession. Only difference, I guess, is I may have to leave out tossing a grenade in each room before entering Back to the big pistola, I got it running at 98% ignition with some firing pin re-profiling. It left a much bigger footprint on the back of the cartridge than my other 22lr's. Now the firing pin strike mimics the others, though not quite as deep. It is 100% reliable in cycling. I'd like to get it 100%, period. If it doesn't improve with some break-in rounds I'll attack the hammer. One disappointment is that the fired cases have a bulge to them due to a partially unsupported chamber. I also feel bad about getting all this nasty firing residue in my nice new gun. All the wife knows so far is that something around $1000 went somewhere. | ||
| Rick_a |
The media spin is to always highlight stories of tragedies/wrongdoings with firearms, with the focus in general on only one demographic, with the exception being anything that could be contrived as a "hate crime." It's always presented with a slant, as well. I'd rather glean some insight from firsthand accounts. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Agreed. The story should always include context about the thousands of times a firearm is used to protect an innocent from a predator. At least two people in that story made at least two incredibly dangerous decisions (daughter and boy). Dad made a tough judgement call in a tough situation. The jury is still out (literally) on if Dad did anything criminal. I just try and learn from these kinds of stories and situations, not judge somebody who had to make a hard decision very difficult circumstances. My conclusion from the Zimmerman issue was that I should pack pepper spray with me to have a less lethal option to protect myself in a situation where circumstances warrant. My conclusion from this issue is that retreat, while not always the best solution, has many merits. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
To quote the late great Spike Milligan. He who fights & runs away lives to run away again. | ||
| Sifo |
Pfft. If I am in a "need to clear the house" scenario, they can drive a truck through the front wall if that's what they feel like they need to do to clear it. It's just a house, I'll fix it. There's certainly a lot to be said for that. Hopefully there would be no insurance problems. I would hate to have them batter in the door just because my wife heard "a noise" though. I do know I would feel very exposed coming down the stairs that are open on both sides, but I can't see down below the first floor ceiling yet. Note todays headline of a dad who shot a 17 year old boy in his daughters bed. Sad situation. Very hard lesson for the daughter about deception too. Hard to fault the dad with the info you posted, but there's no winners there. My conclusion from the Zimmerman issue was that I should pack pepper spray with me to have a less lethal option to protect myself in a situation where circumstances warrant. My conclusion from this issue is that retreat, while not always the best solution, has many merits. Retreat, if possible, is very often preferable. Pepper spray can have varying effect on different people. I know this because I know of a bus driver that had a pepper spray incident on his school bus this winter. No one was directly sprayed. It barely bothered some of the kids, even those right there. Some, much farther away were feeling quite distressed, the driver included. It's not a universal sure thing. It is more forgiving than lead though. How much stuff can you carry with you when you go out? Especially without looking like the "shoot me first" guy when caught in a random robbery. | ||
| Rick_a |
The kid is a little guy. With a modified shooting position he can use it pretty well. It's the only firearm I have he can handle. He was initially reluctant to shoot it (having seen vids of people getting rocked shooting little 6.8SPC's and .300BO's on the Tubes) until I shot it first with the 22lr conversion. Considering that it was his first time shooting an AR-15 or using a red dot he did pretty well. That target was in the shadows and hard to see in the fading light. A single shot with .223: It's fun even one shot at a time. I finally told the wife about while she was in a good mood. She took it surprisingly well. Now she'll be watching my spending like a hawk  | ||
| Blake |
The kiddo looks like a natural. Nice video. It turns out that brass fetcher gel is 20%, quite a bit more dense than the typical 10% gelatin. After learning some more about available defensive ammo, I'm starting to change my mind on the possible utility of the PS90. 55 gr @ 2,300 FPS or 28 gr @ 3,095 FPS (16" barrel) Following is for the FN 57 (pistol), so... http://youtu.be/zqK7aoI0yzI | ||
| Aesquire |
Looks good. Of course you would be better off with 20ga. #4  buck for stopping power and wall penetration.  I sold my Winchester lady defender years ago to a buddy with shoulder injuries. The 1300 in 12ga. Was too rude for him and after a round of trap he was sold on 20 ga. for him. It is a good balance between recoil and power. The shot is the same size & velocity, just a bit less of it. At house range without the concern of a duck sized hole in birdshot pattern at 40 yards........ Now if Saiga made a 20 ga......... | ||
| Aesquire |
Seriously.... what change of mind are you having? Too much penetration in gel? Not enough? I'm not pushing the 5.7x28 as the "best" defensive round. It seems to be decent for it's purpose, which includes armor penetration with the illegally illegal rounds reserved for the police who will need it to defeat all those heavily armored Spetsnaz Troops who will come to protect the Russian speakers in your town. And, as previously stated, seems to work fine against aliens. It's a less powerful round than the .223 but a far more high tech bullet than a .22 magnum. Since a .22 magnum ( rimfire ) is equiv. in "power" to a low powered .38 it's widely considered a sub-minimum defensive round, and there are some tiny revolvers that chamber it in wide use. Usually as a backup for a "real" pistol, or as a hide out for summertime clothing. Don't hear a lot of stories about the .22 mag, presumably because it is a rare firefight with one. ( occasionally one is mentioned in American Rifleman in the "saved by a gun" section, and seems to work ) And I'm sure with the right aftermarket bits you could build a tacti-cool .22 mag rifle. In pistols? not so much. With a Ps90 you have higher ammo costs, but ( fussily ) reloadable, and a ready to roll weapon for people in free states. Cost vs. performance, I would guess that an AR pistol is a better deal, but romance, taste, and personal choice are another thing altogether. I have a buddy who hunts woodchuck/groundhogs with a .50 Gov. Sharps. Why? It's fun. He reloads with black powder, and it tosses this thumb sized bullet out in a pretty rainbow arc ( yes, the bullet is so big you can see it fly ) and does a fine job on large rodents. ( it should.... it's good for Bison ) Not the most rational choice? But one he enjoys. Enjoy. | ||
| Blake |
My change in thinking is that it's a much better defensive weapon than I'd originally thought. See the ammo info above. Commercial ammo is available that is approaching 2,800 FPS in a Hornady 40 gr vmax. Maybe an FMJ for better penetration would be more desirable. A shotgun wins in general stopping power per round but loses on ALL other counts: capacity (50 vs 8), maneuverability/weight/size, effectiveness against soft body armor, recoil/re-acquisition, portability of additional ammo. The more I learn, the more I like the potential for the little 5.7 x 28 mm cartridge. It certainly makes reloading very tempting. |
