| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
Kremlin Deploys Military in Ukraine, Prompting Protest by U.S. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/ukr aine.html?hp&_r=0 MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's upper house of parliament will ask President Vladimir Putin to recall Moscow's ambassador from the United States, the chamber's speaker said on Saturday. http://news.yahoo.com/upper-house-demand-recall-mo scow-ambassador-u-160038208--finance.html;_ylt=AwrBJR9bBBJTxhQAp0nQtDMD An anti O, opinion article Putin Acts, Obama Affirms http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/putin-acts-oba ma-affirms_783647.html I'm already prepared and I admit, predisposed, to disagree with the President. While I may later bitch, the Right answers are far more important than the politics for peace and the freedom of the Ukranians. So...... Better, perhaps to look outside US politics here. http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.57692 7 Let's see. UK Guardian? Let's look. Ok, good news coverage looks like...... Microsoft Virus warnings..... F^&% The Guardian....next...... UK Daily mail? Julia Roberts sister, 61 year old lady getting laid with the internet, more power to her, and... tabloid crap... next.........UK Evening Standard? Ah! http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/ukraine-crisi s-putin-wins-backing-to-send-russian-troops-into-c rimea-9162471.html A couple of Opinion bits from UK Telegraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/u kraine/10669826/Ukraine-Putins-Crimea-aim-is-to-ma ke-the-West-look-weak.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/u kraine/10670557/Ukraine-crisis-Russia-cannot-risk- open-conflict-with-the-West.html Ok, this is off topic, but I think the Brits are as crazy as we are.... ( never read foreign tabloids! DAmn! ) There's a LOT of history between the Russians and the Ukraine. There are lots of Russian retirees in the East of Ukraine. Also serious strategic issues with Ports. Russia NEEDs ocean access. They have crappy ones, since the Northern ports on the Baltic (Saint Petersburg) freeze in winter. The Pacific Ports don't count here, ( except as threats in war ) so Russian ships mostly have to sail through the Bosphorus ( Istanbul Strait ) to get anywhere. Note the Proximity to Syria. Syria's port is a Prime Russian warm water port facility. Hence Russia's 'tude towards losing it if Assad loses. Some maps to help those of us who can't remember where the Crimea is... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26387353 | ||
| Britchri10 |
Summary of UK press mentioned: Mirror: Rag (tabloid) Left bias Guardian: Left bias Telegraph: Right bias The press in the UK is just like it is in the USA, biased to one degree or another. I wouldn't trust any one source as being truly representative.They all have their own agenda's. Chris C | ||
| Brumbear |
I gotta think if the UN really opposed this there would already be troop build ups in the Northern Ukraine no? I would hope the Russian government will eventually strike a lease with the Ukrainian new government for the bases and ports in the Crimea. I can see worrying about the ports with an unstable political situation. I think it would be prudent for the UN to begin a troop build up in Europe though just in case things brew up just to protect our interests. | ||
| Aesquire |
The UN? Seriously? First, Russia simply can veto any troops. So it's never going to happen. Second, How many milliseconds will troops from Botswana hold off the Russian Army? NATO, which is what you probably meant, has some uncertainties since the US President may not respond well. ( I can't put it any less political ) Since the US is the heavy lifter in NATO, that's a real problem. While German, Dutch and Brit troops are good to excellent, recent history in the Bosnian conflict show the leadership may not be. ( I refer to Dutch troops abandoning towns to be sacked. NOT the troops fault, but higher ) And there are serious political issues with sending German troops to confront Russian ones. Memories are long between those 2 countries, and few of them are happy ones. Britchri10, thanks. I expect some bias, You just look at a couple of different views and extrapolate. The 2 opinion articles from the Telegraph I link to tell me that academic idiots are everywhere. Any genius that says "Russia wouldn't dare" is either a shill or an idiot. | ||
| Slowride |
I have been watching the live feed from RT News (RT.com). They are pretty Russian centric, but they are almost real-time with any changes in the theater. I also read threads updated by the second over at a whack job of a conspiracy site called (Godlikeprodcutions.com) The post come in from all over the world and you have to be an adult and not get your panties in a wad. The news coming in from that site is generally hours if not days ahead of any mainstream media outlet. | ||
| Fahren |
Natural Gas complicates the issue. Russia's supply pipelines to Europe run thru Ukraine, and especially the Crimean peninsula, supplying an estimated 30-50 percent of Europe's gas. Russia currently supplies natural gas to Ukraine, and at a discount rate. Both sides have a lot at stake if supply lines are disrupted. And Europe as well. | ||
| Strokizator |
Where's Neville Chamberlain when you need him? Hopefully Obama can accomplish "peace in our time". Or not. | ||
| Brumbear |
Well the UN is what we got like it or not. I don't see what it is your after? Are we gonna go to war over an occupation I doubt it, unless we have a coalition forces to push out the Russians and that aint gonna happen. The Russians are not the Republican Guard of Hussain they not only have Nuclear weapons they have more importantly the delivery system to get them where the need to be. Are we the US gonna sway world opinion I doubt it. Are we ( the US) the UN forces probably the lions share. Will a deal be reached giving Russia control of the bases and ports and airports in the Crimea seems likely the best for everyone. So why not offer political assurances we actually have nothing to do with let the deal go down everybody is happy. Now the build up which we the "UN" should be doing just in case, is not a threat just a reaction to an unstable situation. Win win. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Didn't Pelosi say something like "you have to let them invade before you can call it an invasion"? Maybe not. But I think this is just the beginning of what will be happening all over in the next 2 years. | ||
| Brumbear |
Hey who needs natural gas we found Graphene capacitors now!!!! Just kidding I don't really know what effect that will have it is a good point a very good point. | ||
| Britchri10 |
WRT NATO or UN Troops: Never gonna happen. The Brit' public would not support any troop deployment to Ukraine or anywhere else ATM. You may not see it in the UK press but popular opinion would never endorse the use of UK troops, notwithstanding NATO commitments etc'. It would be political suicide for any UK leader to send troops anywhere following our debacles in Iraq & Afghanistan. IMO the Ukraine will follow the Old Eastern Bloc pattern. Russia puts troops in surreptitiously, stirs up feeling in the Ethnic Russian Ukrainian population. Then goes in overtly to "assist their fellow Russians' against oppression". Russia will end up with the Black Sea ports in the Crimea and may well annexe the area as part of "Greater Russia". The UN is powerless: Russia has the veto in the Security Council and NATO will "sit on their hands" & do nothing due to the splits in their governance. Speak to Cityxslicker re: Prague Spring, Czechoslovakia, Poland etc' in Soviet Bloc history. These examples of Russian behavior are germane to the Ukrainian situation today. Putin is very much an "old style" Soviet leader! Chris C | ||
| Aesquire |
Brumbear, 2 tiny little points. Russia has veto power in the UN security Council. The UN simply cannot & will not do anything the Russians don't want them to. So while the UN can send humanitarian relief after the fires die down, that's about it. What you are saying is like the NYPD taking down the Mayor. They work for him, so....No. The Graphene supercapacitors first, you can't buy them yet. Second, you have to charge them, since they are not a power source, but a battery. So we still need fuel to make it all work. Europe is utterly dependent on Russian Natural Gas. They turn the tap, and people freeze, industry stops, and the price of everything goes up. Even if they can keep the people from freezing with other sources, everything else..... stops. Barrel, Europe is over it. As to "deals" that the Ukraine will make over port facilities, I don't know. If I kick your door down, stick a gun in your face, and "make a deal" with you to take your stuff, that may be the Traditional European way, but not what is known today as commerce. I do agree with some of what you say. Are we the US gonna sway world opinion I doubt it. Are we ( the US) the UN forces probably the lions share. I think Barry's foreign "policy" has the rest of the planet figuring he's going to bluster & lie. And you're right that the US is the most powerful UN member, but as I said, the UN is just going to talk and do nothing to help anyone. NATO, technically, is the power to control this situation, but, your point about US influence is the problem. | ||
| Brumbear |
I know, but whats left NATO if it still exists. I am not making a good point hear I guess, all I know is nothing is gonna happen there will be; for smoke and mirrors an Obama statement when the deal is made between the new Ukrainian government and the Russians on how everyone is happy. The Russians know they have what they need and want anytime they want it the gun isn't in the Ukes face it's in there back. A troop build up would keep our real allies happy I would think all just more smoke and mirrors. At least the likes of Germany,UK,and to lesser extents France,Spain well hell the rest of Europe. There is I'd wager a way around the gas problem if it comes to it which it won't Russia needs money too. All in all this whole thing is a big SHYT sandwich and we all gotta take a bite.I hope Barrack remembers the Russian bear can come out of hibernation and get in the farm causing a ruckus whenever we half step on the world front. This whole thing is just gonna help get rid of that idiot and help select a stronger US politician provided they give us one. I can only hope. As for the Ukranian folks in the Crimea I feel for them is all I can say. | ||
| Aesquire |
Sorry a bit confused. I am not sure if you mean Russia will do as it wants and thats that. .....or they won't because they want money? I'm inclined to the first. The notion that Vladimir will hold back to sell gas is silly. More likely he will use that resource as a weapon as he has before. As to the ineffective use of bluff by the O I agree. Seems he's wrecked the ability to push events because of a series of failed "red lines" and bogus ultimatums. I won't speculate on his promised "flexibility" to Vladimir. The O's. Grasp of history here is doubtful. Ivy League liberal schools. They tend to not teach history as such but the leftist interpretation of it. The Russian Bear is the glorious failed paradise. Not the #2 mass murder machine in history. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Russia will do what Russia wants The O has no power to do anything other than sternly warn them about a time out or threatened loss of dessert. You Libs that wanted a weak global apologist - this is what you get. We are the paper tiger. No disrespect to our military - because I do believe they have a skill and technology that outweighs most of the world - but when your battles are decided on political polls, social media, and thug style puffery - I would not wish to be in the front lines of said armed service We have already seen that this administration has no honor or duty to those that risk their life on the front lines. We have no business in Russia or Ukraine; and to think that we could steer the course of what Putin does, or what he wants to do - is pure foolery. Ukraine is strategic because of what flows through there - the oil and gas money has what has propped up that country since the Soviet fell. Not that they have much of it themselves, but they own the pumping, pipelines, and right of ways for the oil to the rest of Europe and Russia for the oil that goes through there. The Black Sea is Russia's playground - it has always been so. So what should we do?.... Keep our brand of foreign policy stupidity out of it. Remember the last time Ukraine Revolted (2004) they threw out a corrupt government that was a puppet for the west | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I couldn't be arsed to say what I really feel, but what idiot of a US president would think for a moment Putin (or any other Russian in the seat come to it) would allow the EU (read America inc) to extend its eastern borders 500 miles from Moscow. Some simple truths here http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-putin-obama-crimea-4 61/ Rocket in England | ||
| Brumbear |
City has it figured. The entire big O peacocking is a load of hooey we the US can't do anything but sit and watch. The Russians know they can't be over eager and will make a monetary deal is my personal opinion if they don't the EU may start shopping around for their needs and I am sure they the Russians thought of that as well. The Russians will do what they want but they are not stupid I doubt they will bite the hand that feeds them. The EU buys gas and other materials from Russia and they won't want to chance not having that IMO. (Message edited by brumbear on March 03, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
Rocket has it dead right. Russian history and the loss of millions in two world wars will dictate their current foreign' policy and they will want to keep their 'buffer zone' intact between 'The West' and their western border. Crimea has always been Russian (We even fought a war over it with them!) and 8 million Crimeans consider themselves Russian, not Ukranian citizens. It is also the headqurters and base of the Black Sea Fleet and Russian Army/Air force bases, so they are not going to hand it over to Ukraine any time soon. What we (the west) should be doing instead of making useless threats is to start dialogue with Russia and Ukraine about splitting Crimea (which has been a semi autonomous region for years anyway) from Ukraine without bloodshed. Too many similarities between this and 1914 that we can't have learned anything surely? | ||
| Oldog |
We can hope that our pResident won't do something tragically STUPID, which is his normal mode of operation. I hope that The NEW Russia, The enlightened Russia, will succeed with out blood shed and broker a deal as Matt suggests that is bloodless for both parties, I certainly understand the Russian's position And President Putin's actions, I wish I understood ours..... | ||
| Greatlaker |
God loves America most. That's why he made the USA and guided the hands of the men who wrote the constitution, which is a Holy document. Therefore, the USA has every right to politically meddle and influence the political situation in foreign countries for the best interest of America. All sarcasm aside, the hypocrisy here is very, very thick. Where was the US media during the abduction and torture of prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko which happened over three years ago? I don't recall any American news agency reporting on that atrocity. The Ukraine and the people of Crimea are headed for a civil war akin to what we witnessed in Yugoslavia back in the 80's. In the end there will be two states in place of the one country presently in place. The best thing for world peace is if Russia and the USA both step away and let this thing sort itself out on its own. Tens of thousands will die in a multi year war but in the end you will have a peace between two new countries. Much like Serbia and Croatia finally established. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
http://youtu.be/lAdBBDmruYo | ||
| Xdigitalx |
http://youtu.be/IsrF2vSu0uQ | ||
| Aesquire |
Rockets link irritates me. Referring to the R party as diseased annoys me. I will not argue it....but annoyed. The part about the O throwing meat....... sure but to whom? The rest just reminds me that D Party rhetoric & C Party rhetoric are now interchangable.....except the C's are more eloquent. Lots of power being projected. | ||
| Reindog |
Here is the youtube of the second embedded link. | ||
| Trojan |
The best thing for world peace is if Russia and the USA both step away and let this thing sort itself out on its own. Tens of thousands will die in a multi year war but in the end you will have a peace between two new countries. Much like Serbia and Croatia finally established. Or they could sit around the table and decide peacefully that they will establish two separate Ukranian states.....just like Czechoslovakia did a few years ago when they split to become Czech republic and Slovakia. No fighting, no riots, no bloodshed, not hardly a mention on international news.....just a decent peaceful decision taken by sensible people. Pity there aren't more of those about. | ||
| Reindog |
Like Scotland and England? | ||
| Sifo |
Interesting opinions here. Thanks all for sharing. Rockets link irritates me. Referring to the R party as diseased annoys me. I will not argue it....but annoyed. The part about the O throwing meat....... sure but to whom?
This writer may or may not understand things on the European continent, but he clearly doesn't understand things here in the US. Diseased? Alright, that's a given. By Neo-Con ideology? I don't think that's the problem. No doubt the Russians have "Neo-Con" issues though. Tossing red meat to the Rs? Not even close. The entire world knows BO is an empty suit when it comes to threats on this sort of thing. If it can't be done with a drone, BO is not your guy. Droning Moscow isn't going to be productive. I hope BO has advisers that will explain this to him. | ||
| Britchri10 |
Difference between the example of Czechoslovakia & England - Scotland is that the Scot's living in Scotland will get to choose in a referendum scheduled for later this year. There is no outside interference from other Governments. Chris C | ||
| Trojan |
Like Scotland and England? Oh no, we want a proper war, just like the good old days  | ||
| Fahren |
Cue Mel Gibson. LOL |
