| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Ft_bstrd said about the Rhino... It's a 13-14.5lb trigger that doesn't like short stroking. You can create some cylinder cycling errors if you aren't deliberate. Not meaning to pick on this gun, but it does kind of dispel some of the axiom that revolvers are trouble free. I do see it as an interesting design that is worth looking at. I hope it's successful enough to get lots of refinement. I haven't seen one in the wild yet. | ||
| Rick_a |
Short stroking the trigger is a user problem. Like anything else with a repeating mechanism, it's only as reliable as the person making it go bang. Much like the popular pump shotguns and lever action rifles, many people will blame the gun for their deficiencies. There's a learning curve associated with any unfamiliar movement or manipulation. I used to hate shooting double action but now shoot just as well or better than in single. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You can cause cylinder rotation errors by short stroking a DA trigger in many kinds of revolvers. Some are just more prone to it than others. Unlike semi-autos, this kind of error is easily corrected by pulling the trigger again. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Chiappa now makes trigger kits for the Rhino as well: http:// http://store.chiappafirearms.com/pk-stage1.html | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Rick_a: "I still haven't found a striker fired gun with a trigger I agree with, or one that I've enjoyed shooting. I may build a 10mm at some point, but that's leaning more towards a longslide 1911 than custom Glock." Rick, with my Glock 30 I recently did a 3 1/2# connector and did a polish on all wear points of the trigger mechanism. What a BIG difference! Very little takeup, short pull through and very short reset with a light but not unsafe pull. It made it a pull very much like a single action 1911 but lighter. Yes, you must do some of the work yourself or have a reputable smith do it but its fairly simple. Videos are on u-tube. As always the internal safeties are all good and again the main safety is your brain. Its the best of both worlds; point and shoot ala revolver, but auto with better cartridge capacity and great trigger. Do some research and see user reviews and it might change your mind on striker fired pistols. | ||
| Sifo |
No doubt it is a "user problem". As are many of the issues with semi-automatics. Only point being, even a revolver isn't To be fair, the trigger on my XD(m), while pretty smooth with a good break, is still kind of funky. It takes some real getting used to. I think Ruger nailed the trigger pretty well on the LCR. They managed that at a pretty reasonable price too. So what happens if you short stroke the trigger anyway? It should never go bang until the cylinder is locked up in the correct position. From there the mechanics of the cylinder should be done. I only own a couple of S&W revolvers, but have never seen any issues with short stroking the trigger. (Message edited by SIFO on January 22, 2014) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sifo, I don't really know what is happening. I can tell you the symptom but not the cause. It happens mostly when people shoot it for the first time. I haven't had a short stroke error in quite some time, and I put at least 50 rounds through it each week. The cylinder is most likely over rotating to the next fresh round. As such you wouldn't notice it until you got to round 6 and you were back to the original round 1. Then you'd have to click back around until you found the unspent cartridge. It's not an issue isolated to the Rhino. Most revolvers have the capacity to create such an error. My guess is because of the unique design of the mechanism and the point at which the cylinder engages and rotates that you can rotate the cylinder before engaging the hammer to fire. Good video of the internal mechanics: Sifo, my understanding is that the "kit" includes all three kits: Stage 1, Stage 2, and Stage three. For $169, that's a hell of a deal. | ||
| Sifo |
Interesting that short stroking the trigger can rotate the cylinder an extra position. I've never experienced that, but I'm no revolver expert. I just find it surprising. I read that to be $169 for your choice of trigger job stages, but they don't seem to have an option to select it. You could be right. It's not that $169 (+ labor I think) is a bad price, it's just that it's needed on a fairly expensive revolver to get a trigger pull that isn't what most would consider excessive. It's already not a cheap gun. Like I say though, I like the concept. | ||
| Sifo |
Watching that video, it appears that once cocked, there is no way to decock it. Is that the case? It also kind of concerns me that the "hammer" or what ever they call the part you thumb back on this gun to •••• it, returns forward again, not giving any indication that it's cocked. I assume it's like a typical revolver where when cocked you get a light/short single action trigger stroke. I would hate to think it might wind up being carried in that condition with no visible signs of it. I know, I know, that's a user issue. Try explaining that to a jury when one of these has gone off in someone's pocket and you have a product liability lawyer going after them. | ||
| Sifo |
C o c k is apparently not allowed.  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You can decock it just like you do with a standard revolver. Hold the hammer back with your thumb, pull the trigger, gently return the hammer back to the resting, uncocked position. There is a red indicator on top of the pistol that pops up to indicate that it is in single action mode. | ||
| Rick_a |
It has a cocking indicator, and can be decocked via the same faux hammer that cocked it. | ||
| Rick_a |
Beat to it. | ||
| Sifo |
That's good to hear. The video didn't make that clear at all. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
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| Ninefortheroad |
I like diversity in life and in my weapons... Already have a LCR 38 and think it is a "keeper". I see a Rhino next in line of the "Gotta git" firearm! Thanks, FB, for throwing it out there in this thread! | ||
| Rick_a |
I put together a list of what it would take to put together a Glock to my liking. It ended up nearly doubling the price of the gun. I used to love such projects but find myself weary of that kind of endeavor these days. An extreme example:  As far as revolvers go, this was a must have for me:  I should be picking up that 1950's vintage beauty soon. | ||
| Chauly |
I'm looking to (or not) buy a K-32 or Model 16, or a Model 632. A GP100 in .327 Federal may (or may not) be added soon, if found... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
 "Backpack Cannon" anyone? .460 Caliber, five round. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/21/sm ith-wesson-unveils-monster-460-caliber-gun-backp/ | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
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| Sifo |
So I was doing the paperwork today at a LGS. They had a snub nose Rhino in the case, so I asked to see it. Interesting design for sure. I think it needs some refinement, but certainly has potential. It is quite a bit chunkier than the LCR though. It REALLY needs a lot of edges and corners smoothed IMO. Glad I got to check it out though. XDs for me! | ||
| Aesquire |
Opinions on the Ruger LC9? The cannon above is a Bear Country gun. I'd load .454 Casull, Garret Hardcast loads for that purpose. Or the Buffalo Bore .460 L.B.T.-L.F.N. The polymer tipped .460 ammo is ideal for rifle powered hunting, but for Bear you need penetration. Since the reason for that Gun's existence may have it's head inside the tent, and it's the only thing you can see as it's dragging you or yours out. Bear skulls are tough. Do a great job on Deer within your personal accuracy range. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My father has an LC9. Nice shooting little gun. Trigger is OK. Decent sights. The only real complaint is the slide takedown. Ruger uses a little pin that you must use a special tool to press out. My dad had a hard time with it. One would find it easier if in possession of three hands. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you are looking for a .357 revolver, don't rule out a Ruger SP101. Not *quite* as nice a trigger as the S&W, but a bit beefier, cheaper, and much easier to find for sale. | ||
| Sifo |
Thought I would give a follow up. I did the 9mm XDs. I've put just over 200 rounds through it at this point. After 100 rounds I know I've been shooting it, but it's still not bad. Recoil is very manageable with it. I've been running a mix of 115 grain bullets through it. American Eagle FMJ, Federal JHP, Hornady Critical Defense, as well as my own loads with lead semi-wad cutters. It has run flawlessly with the exception of two semi-wad cutters that didn't feed well. I can forgive those, as they aren't even close to a 9mm parabellum shape, but they run well in my other guns. That was two out of about 50 BTW. There is a noticeable muzzle flash, even with the Critical Defense which claims to be tailored to short barrels and low muzzle flash. I can't say that I'm surprised by that. As expected, my groups have not been as good as with my full size guns. Still, at 25 feet, it is capable of reasonable accuracy. The one thing I'm not totally happy with is that it seems to be shooting low. About 3 inches low at 25 feet. Not a huge deal with something that's intended for very short range, but it doesn't make me happy. My first day with it I had a friend shoot a magazine to see how his grouping was. Unfortunately, he hated the short grip and was all over the place with it. I'm still trying to figure out if it's me or the gun. I did a fair amount of dry fire with it to really get used to the trigger this morning before going to the range. It's a noticeably heavier trigger pull than my XD(m) and slightly gritty feeling. I dry fire it with the sights nice and steady though, so I don't think that's the problem. I even tried something I read online, dry fire with a dime balanced on the front sight. That sounded harder than it turned out to be. So I don't think it's an issue with my trigger pull. That kind of leave me simply anticipating the live round or the gun itself, unless I'm missing something. One other difference between the XD(m) and XDs is that on the last round the XD(m) will return the trigger to it's normal position. The XDs doesn't do that until the slide comes forward again. Now that I've gotten used to that, I really like it. You get a tactile feel from the trigger that it was the last shot. None of my other pistols do that. Other than the shooting low thing, I'm very happy with it. It's so consistent about it that I'm becoming convinced that it's not me, but will feel better if I can get another shooter to get some rounds on it. Eventually I will get my friend to does bullseye shooting to give it a go. She has a .40 XD so is familiar with the basic platform and is an excellent shot. That will be my final determination if I don't find a flaw with myself before then. The friend that did shoot it, had me shoot his new Kimber Ultra Carry .45. I pretty much tore out the center of the target with 5 shots from that at about 20 feet. Nice shooting gun that is. Still, I know there are going to be times that a full sized grip isn't going to carry well for me. And my personal decision to not carry a gun with a manual safety. Great shooting though! | ||
| Reepicheep |
So why don't some semi autos allow hammer down (double action first shot) and safety on with a round in the chamber? Is it because there is concern the hammer down could cause an unintended discharge if the gun is dropped? | ||
| Sifo |
So why don't some semi autos allow hammer down (double action first shot) and safety on with a round in the chamber? Some do exactly that. The hubby of the girl I mentioned above has one exactly like that, I forget the brand/model. The safety decocks it, then acts like a normal safety. No chance of an accidental discharge, as the transfer bar is moved out of the way of the hammer by the safety switch (otherwise it would fire instead of just decock). Personally, I find that overkill, but that's just my opinion. Everyone has their own opinion on what is a safe carry condition. | ||
| Aesquire |
This is why I talk about gun geeks. It's the switches and how they work. The Beretta 92, ( for example ) the current US military side arm, uses a "double action first shot-single action rest of magazine" DA/SA action with a decocker lever, on some ( most ) models. There's a range of models where they change the controls around to make some government buyer happy, but the decocker model is the common one. The 92F uses a decocker that's also a safety. ( or vice versa ) you can flip the safety on, decocking the gun, ( which has a firing pin safety to keep it from firing when decocking or if the hammer is struck ) and then flip the safety off again, and have a ready to fire weapon without having to touch anything but the trigger. ( this is NOT the suggested carry mode, but you can do it ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_92 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_pistol there was a whole flood of guns introduced in the 1970-90's era, using a similar switch technology, which dates back to the Walther P-38. ( there may be an earlier one, but the P-38 made it popular ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P38 There are some obvious advantages to such a system. Some people do NOT like the 1911's "cocked and locked" carry system. There have been arguments about the 1911 design since the day it came out. You can still get serious emotional feedback by even starting such a discussion.  see appendix. Some think the DA/SA system like the P-38 or Beretta is easier to teach. The downside of the DA/SA semiautos is the trigger pull is very different on the first shot & subsequent shots. You heave hard for the first, then the rest are easy. Many argue that that is bad ergonomics, and a safety issue. Detractors of this design call them "crunch'n'tickers" for the feeling of the trigger. 1911's have only the one feel, and it's really good one. John Browning was a genius. SOME DA/SA pistols can be carried "cocked & locked". and MOST DA/SA pistols can be cocked by thumb manually & are cocked when you chamber a round. Many people prefer a DA-only design, where the trigger pull is the same. There are various ways to do this. Some, like Glock using slide movement to partially compress the firing pin ( aka hammer ) spring, so that the trigger pull is lighter than cocking it all the way. Others do not, and function like a DA-only revolver. Switches, and how they work. I hope this confuses your question. ( appendix. 1911 switch safety comments ) I was taught "cocked & locked"....hammer cocked, chamber loaded ( safety on in ANY mode ) on a 1911 is "Condition 1". Hammer down on a full chamber, safety on, is "Condition 2", and carried hammer down on an empty chamber "Condition 3". http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_25/521985_1911_and_ the_Condition_2_myth.html All I will say is the 1911 has multiple redundant safeties. Some have firing pin safeties..... Depending on version!!! that work either by the trigger ( Colt model 70 ) or the grip safety ( Kimber ) or none at all. If a 1911 has a firing pin safety, it should not go off if the hammer is struck when down on a full chamber, but if it does not, it will. To use a gun in Condition 2, you must thumb •••• the hammer, manually. This method of carry ( IF the gun has a firing pin safety! ) eliminates the hazard of accidentally swiping off the safety, ( easy to do if you brush up against a desk/door/object ) ) and having the hammer jarred off it's sear, firing the weapon. It's not a common problem, but it has happened. Condition 2 also increases the hazard of the messing up the manipulation and having the hammer slip before it reaches it's sear. That's called an AD. It's loud, and usually expensive. Condition 2, requires training, or you will find yourself pulling on a trigger & nothing happens. You have to train in manual single action cocking. A big argument against "condition 2" is the hazard of lowering the hammer on a full chamber. That's a legit complaint. ( see link above... ) | ||
| Aesquire |
Sifo, have you checked your serial number for the recall? http://www.springfieldrecall.com/Recall%20FAQ.asp Thanks for the feedback. You might need a different height front sight. What is your sight picture? center of bull or bull on top? Sounds like a very nice weapon. | ||
| Sifo |
Mine is post recall. I also verified that it functions as a post recall gun should. I'm sighting center of bull, just like my XD(m). I do set up my target guns to shoot with a "pumpkin on a post" sight picture. Condition 2, requires training, or you will find yourself pulling on a trigger & nothing happens. You have to train in manual single action cocking. Condition 1, 2 or 3 will lead to pulling the trigger and have nothing happen if you haven't trained sufficiently. That's my whole aversion to that style of weapon. YMMV. The problem as I see it is that you need to train a lot with what ever condition you carry a 1911 style gun in. Most people I see shooting at the range with a 1911 are NOT training to use it in a combat situation. A typical range session consists of having the weapon with the slide locked back, inserting a fresh magazine, racking or releasing the slide, and firing until the slide locks back on the last round. Doing this doesn't train you for firing the weapon from condition 1, 2, or 3. The day may come where I'm comfortable with the idea of carrying a 1911 condition 1. Actually, I'm comfortable with the carrying part, it's the using it part when maxed out with panic and stress that concerns me. Until then I like the point and click simplicity of typical striker fired pistols and revolvers. The fewer mistakes I can make, the better off I am. At the range though, I must admit that I really enjoy running the 1911. |
