| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
The Smith & Wesson M&P is hands down the most comfortable pistol I've ever handled. The ergonomics are wonderful. And they are not imports. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I heard that .45 story, and don't doubt some of it was true... but I wonder if it was .38 S&W (like the webly) or if it was really .38 special. I reload both, it makes a huge difference). | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
Good point Reepi about the .38 S @ W. I never pondered that and it does not make mention of it either way in the book I have. | ||
| Aesquire |
.38 Colt. Not an awesome round. The Moro tribesmen in question were jihadi and would bind the body & limbs with linen. Both death shroud & armor. The older .45 Colt was much preferred by US troops. Moros also did drugs for courage and to ignore wounds............so crack heads are a good reference. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Reloading, it amazes me how they have converged. .38 and 9mm and .357 and even .45 are pretty close in the type and amount of powder. .38 and 9 and .357 are virtually the same diameter as well. | ||
| Chauly |
It's all done for inventory reasons... :-) | ||
| Sifo |
10-4, amigo. From your posts, it really sounds like you want a svelte semi-auto as opposed to a chubby snubbie. Yeah, that's right where I'm at. I'm convinced I could live with either just fine. I really wanted to see if I could be convinced that the snubbie in .357 was the right compromise. At this point, I still feel that it might not be. OTOH, if I did go the snubbie route, and found that a full power .357 just made a second shot uncontrollable, I do have the option of rolling my own to what ever power I am comfortable with anywhere between .38 +P to .357 loads using good quality defensive bullets. I used to be leery of of that, but have gotten the confidence that my ammo WILL go bang, and for a few rounds, I can take better care than a manufacturer ever could to get nice consistent ammo. Any one know if there are any legal issues if you ever actually use a non-factory bullet in self defense? I know you know this already, but just like motorcycles, you really should test-ride every firearm that's on your short list before pulling the financial trigger on one. Finding one seems to be the problem. I did find a local range (less than an hour away) that has the LCR. $10.00 gun rental, $21.00 range fee, $32.00 for 50 rounds of .357! That's getting near the area where you can just buy one then trade it if you don't like it and not be far behind. They don't have the XDs to compare to either. If I could shoot them back to back on the same range fee it would be worth while. This shop does have an annual "Manufactures Demo Day" where the manufactures bring their own demo guns and the range is dedicated to pushing people through the line. You don't get to shoot many shots, so you better be focused on what you want to learn about the gun, but the cost is minimal. I think they do that late winter/early spring sometime. I may wait till then, or just take my best guess. If it turns out that I can take the class with my full size XDm on a belt holster as Ourdee suggested, then there's no hurry in buying the carry piece. I'll still be waiting for Illinois to process the license application. I hear they are swamped right now. Thanks for all the input. It helps a lot to be forced to think through things from another perspective. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
"Reloading, it amazes me how they have converged. .38 and 9mm and .357 and even .45 are pretty close in the type and amount of powder. .38 and 9 and .357 are virtually the same diameter as well." I would only agree on that Bill if you compare just those rounds and no others but they do each show some profound differences in ballistics and performance from each other. At one time the 125g./.357 Magnum was considered, by actual, on the street, performance by LEO's as the best one shot stopper of all times. I do however keep asking myself why most of our military special ops forces are going with .45 autos now. They seem to do the job on the drugged up Moros back in the day, as Aesquire said, and probably still can. I personally like the 10mm auto but I do not currently own one as the platforms for them are just too big for concealed carry except the Glock 29 and I already carry a Glock 30/.45ACP. The favorite round I handloaded for was a .45 Super in my then HK USP. 185g. JHP at 1200fps was awesome but mostly unnecessary for CC and again too big a pistol. So many choices/so little money now. And good luck Tom (Sifo), you seem to have the right idea for choosing and are on the right track. (Message edited by Bob_thompson on January 17, 2014) | ||
| Rick_a |
Small revolvers have their place. A S&W 442 in .38spl is the only "little gun" I own. I shoot it just as well as anything else and can carry it in various ways. I had been shooting for about 20 years before I really considered a small, lightweight revolver. While they are popular, I would generally not recommend such guns to people without a lot of experience. For most, a semiauto will be easier to pack and shoot. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If I actually believed I was going into any kind of moderate or high threat environment, I would have either a SIG P220 (.45 ACP) or a Beretta M9 (18 rounds of 9mm) and just be uncomfortable carrying a big gun somewhere. But generally, if I believe I am going into a high threat environment... I just don't go.  | ||
| Mtnmason |
Geez, this thread really took off... Did I miss anyone saying that the LCR is just plain fuuuhgly? I get the reasoning behind using polymer on a wheel gun. Not for me though. My S&W 642 OTOH is quite a handsome little piece. Sifo- Do you worry about over penetration with .357? Great quote from an instructor: "Imagine that every bullet that exits your weapon in a defensive situation has a little lawyer attached to it." I've even heard of some suggesting using frangible projectiles in their CCW - again, not for me. My daily carry (not that anyone asked) is an FN X40. I carry the snubby in warmer weather and do not feel unprepared, especially if I'm carrying the speedloader. Bear in mind, most defensive gun uses don't even require a shot being fired. I hope and pray this would be the case with any of yous guys, if, heaven forbid... | ||
| Sifo |
Reloading, it amazes me how they have converged. .38 and 9mm and .357 and even .45 are pretty close in the type and amount of powder. .38 and 9 and .357 are virtually the same diameter as well. Are you comparing loads for the exact same bullet? Even the same weight and shape bullet for, let's say a .357 can call for quite different loads just because being jacketed or lead bullets. It gets more complicated when you start comparing .357 to 9mm, simply because you are probably comparing different weight bullets. Keep in mind, that for a given caliber, as bullet weight goes up, the charge has to go down. Thanks for the words of encouragement Bob. I know I can make any of the choices I'm looking at work well. I just strain over the various, often conflicting choices that must be made. The more I learn about some things like this, the more I want to learn. The details of guns are simply fascinating. I hadn't been to the Springfield Armory site in a while, but was just there and noticed that they are about to release a version of the XDs with a 4.0 inch barrel instead of the 3.3) A small change like that allows for a bit more weight to absorb recoil, and a different recoil spring. They claim it to be much tamer than the 3.3 and not affect concealability. Sure some of that is just marketing. There's a lot of engineering behind that too though. Just exactly how much it changes felt recoil... That's a very subjective thing. It's kind of like "how well does a particular bike handle?" | ||
| Sifo |
Sifo- Do you worry about over penetration with .357? The thought is in my mind. With a 5 inch or longer barrel, I would be terrified by that thought. with a 1.875 inch barrel, not as much. I worry more about needing a second shot that I can't put on target. Still, your point is a worthwhile point. Bear in mind, most defensive gun uses don't even require a shot being fired. I hope and pray this would be the case with any of yous guys, if, heaven forbid... No doubt the best case is that it never leaves the holster as a part of any conflict. I hope that's a point that we universally agree on. | ||
| Aesquire |
Ruger fugly....... yeah. The deal with that gun is the designers put a lot of effort into trigger pull. A smaller frame has shorter levers to do the same job as a large revolver. Snubbys have always been harder to shoot because of the short sight radius. More important is that snubbys have a harder pull. Except the Ruger. Think about it, the smaller hammer has to hit as hard as a bigger one. The spring HAS to be stiffer to to the job. It is simple physics & with smart camming the Ruger folk made a real improvement. I don't think pretty was on the spec sheet. | ||
| Fb1 |
I find the LCR to be attractive, especially considering its mission statement:  Image source: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/12/19/ruge r-lcr-22-22-revolver/ | ||
| Sifo |
Did I miss anyone saying that the LCR is just plain fuuuhgly? I get the reasoning behind using polymer on a wheel gun. Not for me though. My S&W 642 OTOH is quite a handsome little piece. LCR is not a great looking gun. The put function before style for sure. Nothing wrong with that IMO, especially for a tool that is going to get banged around and beat up. My sister-in-law got a S&W Airweight a bit over a year ago. She loves it. I've shot it. It's a wonderful girls gun.  I just got back from the big gun shop west of me. They had nice pricing on the LCRs. $406 for the .38 and I think it was about $46? for the .357. Honestly though, the XDs just seems right in my hand. I just can't find one to try out. The small shop where I may or may not have picked up an AR said they would order one for me at $499. I may or may not chose to do that. The good news is that primers are still in stock! I may or may not have picked up another box.  | ||
| Ourdee |
I worry more about needing a second shot that I can't put on target. First you will be lucky if you don't freeze when the time comes. The second shot will be taken when you can no longer hear and reality doesn't quite seam to make sense. You better know how to be a non-threat to the first responders. In your delirium the 911 call has to clearly identify you with an accurate description. Where is your weapon going to be when the cop first sees you. Shots were already fired and the LEOs are coming in hot. After a while you will second guess every choice you made and question if any of it was real. The only thing to save you will be training and practice. Constant unending training and practice. Have you ever shot a magnum in a hallway or closed car? If I'm home alone, I plan on being in the bathtub laying down when I fire at the perp bending over me. And about 300 other scenarios. In an armed robbery, I hope to only be a witness. Can I observe enough to be any help? Will I make the right call of weather or not the perp is going to harm someone? How much harm, a hit or slap, grave? Spend time on a range putting three rounds in the perp in rapid controlled succession. Use targets with hostages. Mind where that stray round is going to wind up and where his rounds will hit when he misses you. Can you still hit the 10 ring when the target is shooting back. You must be diligent with and demanding of yourself. Your spouse and you need to be on the same page. Kids have to know how you will respond before you respond. There is a lot of responsibility riding the armed citizen. | ||
| Sifo |
Hard to argue with any of that Ourdee. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
...eye of the beholder! I think the LCR is a lot better looking than the S&W's of that size. Also, not surprised the thread went to the normal "caliber wars" One of the strongest, large men I knew was kill by 3 poorly placed .22lr pistol shots before he got off the porch. | ||
| Rick_a |
Yes, very pretty for a "girls gun"   | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
Ourdee, very good advice.. Most people cannot fathom the intensity of a scenario involving a shootout in close quarters or involving family protection. it is easy to talk, but hard to say how one would react in one of a million possible scenarios | ||
| Court |
>>>>Have you ever shot a magnum in a hallway or closed car? It will change the way you look at things. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Aaron_thomas: "Ourdee, very good advice.. Most people cannot fathom the intensity of a scenario involving a shootout in close quarters or involving family protection. it is easy to talk, but hard to say how one would react in one of a million possible scenarios" All very true and I would politely add; it will be the absolute most important thing you will ever do in you life; not getting married, having kids, getting a high paying job, or anything else because......whatever you do it could cost you your life or that of a loved one. Don't shoot and you could be dead, shoot wrongly and it could cost you a life in prison. AND you will probably have only a split second to decide. Think about it considerably anytime before you carry or are put in a bad situation. As Bill (reepicheep) has stated before, awareness & avoidance is usually the best option if available. Leave the macho s*** at home and choose wisely my friend. | ||
| Mtnmason |
Rick_a --- I like. I opted for the stainless finish. And if it is "...nice...for a girl..." it would have to be one of the more firearm proficient type of girls. As you commented earlier - snubbies are not ideal at all for newer shooters. | ||
| Blake |
Add me to the list of those who find the LCR very aesthetically pleasing. Glocks too. | ||
| Aesquire |
I like Rick_a's Airweight. Laser sights on a snubby are the first real advance in fire arms in a century. ( the second is the new electronic scopes ) Which is funny because for all the high tech and advancement in the field you perceive, the mechanisms and designs are all new packaging on stuff more than a century old. OTOH, That new packaging of the old Sam Colt & John Browning designs, is really great stuff! Based on testing, of penetration of obstacles, using ballistic gel, there's a new "class" of ammo out there for some calibers. That's the new FBI barrier standard, shooting through glass, metal, plywood, heavy fabric, etc. with minimum and maximum penetration of the gel after poking though an obstacle. End result is a fairly heavy loaded strongly constructed bullet. It's designed for the kind of fight the FBI expects to have, especially including shooting at people in cars. There was a committee involved. But. It's good ammo, for it's purpose. If you're concerned with "stopping power" ( see note ) then the FBI load is ok, but not perfect. A less heavy load with a less stout bullet seems to be the ideal here. Hornady sells it's "FBI load" as Critical Duty, and it's civilian man stopper as Critical Defense. There's a big difference in recoil, and little in function, unless you're shooting through walls and cars. Your choice. All the major ammo makers are going to be doing both variations on the theme so the winner is the consumer, here. ( note. "Stopping power" is arguable, nearly The Argument in ammo selection, and hard to define. Skipping technical details, let's just say "it lets the mad out" faster. ) How about the looks of the Ruger vs. S&W's new polymer snubby, Remember, taste is taste.  | ||
| Sifo |
The S&W Bodyguard looks like a nice gun... with a poorly designed laser pointer bolted on. I also found the cylinder release to be quite awkward. I guess on the plus side the cylinder release is no more awkward for a leftie. If it matters, it doesn't come in a .357, or sans-laser. The laser version of the LCR was better, but still not great IMO. The Crimson Trace laser on Rick_a's Airweight looks like a nice set up. | ||
| Fb1 |
The Crimson Trace laser grip for the LCR is virtually identical to the S&W Airweight CT grip pictured above. I have an LCR with the factory-installed CT grip sitting here beside me as I type, for reference, and here's a pic I snagged online to illustrate...  Image source: http://www.vanceoutdoors.com/products2.cfm/ID/7514 9/name/ruger-lcr-38spl-revolver-w-laser-grip ...and Rick A's pic from above: | ||
| Sifo |
Yeah, I was reffering to the factory laser option...  For me at least, it's a long reach to push the button up in front of the trigger guard. It's ambidextrous, which is nice, but you need to push the button back to the center to switch it off, which then requires the other hand. The Crimson Trace looks like a nice option, except I'm guessing there's no way to turn it off. With my intended purpose of this weapon, that really wouldn't be an issue, but sometimes is. | ||
| Fb1 |
I was commenting on... The laser version of the LCR was better, but still not great IMO. The Crimson Trace laser on Rick_a's Airweight looks like a nice set up. ...as it sounded like you thought there was a significant difference in the design of the CT laser grip between the LCR and the Airweight. Re: turning on/off the laser, there's a tiny, recessed slide switch in the butt of the grip. You have to very deliberately turn the laser on, or off, to enable or disable the finger pad on the grip, and it's been our experience that the switch can't accidentally move during EDC. FWIW, this particular CT laser holds zero well, and CT's finger pad actuation button design works well, IMO - I haven't seen another design for activating a laser that I like as much at CT's. It's simple and intuitive. |
