| Author | Message | ||
     Scottorious |
It seems like a lot of active quick board users dislike the thought of electric cars and the use of ethanol as fuel. What do people see as the future if those two items aren't considered? | ||
| Hootowl |
Ethanol is entirely dependent upon the net energy produced by fossil fuels and fertilizers and pesticides produced from oil and natural gas. Ethanol from corn is NOT a power source, it's a farm subsidy for a crop we don't need. Electric cars are mostly powered by coal. As far as I can tell, we don't have a viable alternative to fossil fuels right now. Wind and solar aren't going to cut the mustard. So...who knows? I do know that the technological leaps involved in generating and storing energy (probably electrical) will come from the private sector, and not from government backed "green" companies, who, from what I can tell, exist primarily to suck up tax dollars to line the pockets of the executives of the companies before going belly up. (Message edited by hootowl on November 12, 2013) | ||
| Jayvee |
bicycles (Pedal Power) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Nukes!  | ||
| Uncle |
Waaaaaayyyyyyyyy down the road, as a last resort, steam power could come back. Or, wood powered internal combustion vehicles. Google "wood powered cars(or trucks)" IIRC it was done in some places during WW2 when gasoline was in short supply. Not real practical but it worked and was relatively easy to convert. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Ethanol is entirely dependent upon the net energy produced by fossil fuels and fertilizers and pesticides produced from oil and natural gas. Ethanol from corn is NOT a power source, it's a farm subsidy for a crop we don't need. The first part of your statement is true as long as you're talking ethanol from corn. It may be possible to produce "net positive energy" ethanol from other sources. Methanol (as used in Brazil) may be easier. | ||
| Sifo |
What do people see as the future if those two items aren't considered? Figure that out and be a rich man. Ask government to figure that out, and become a poor nation. | ||
| Hootowl |
"The first part of your statement is true as long as you're talking ethanol from corn." Yes, I should have been more specific. I noted the efficiency of ethanol from cane in another thread. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I see electric in the future but only mainstream when batteries get better and cheaper. I dont think breakthroughs will come from our politicians dumping billions into their buddies new green startup companies. | ||
| Buewulf |
Petroleum fuels are going to be around for a long time and will probably always have a future even if it is somewhat diminished. Electric vehicles will find their niche, but it will still be a niche even 20 years from now I'm willing to wager short of some quantum leap in battery technology that addresses range and rate of charge. I do think ethanol could become the primary liquid fuel by government mandate in the next 15 years, but the market wouldn't choose it on its own. Perhaps methanol will replace ethanol once they realize that ethanol really can't be produced in the quantities they need without starving the world. Not to mention methanol costs about 1/6 as much as ethanol. The alcohols don't really solve any problems with respect to CO2 emissions, so it would be a pointless transition unless the petroleum supply was dwindling and prices were skyrocketing. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57611891/makin g-corn-based-ethanol-badly-hurting-environment-ap/ | ||
| Cityxslicker |
wasnt there an old timey motor that ran on compressed air - damnit, I wish I could remember it | ||
| Sifo |
A good friend's father was a big shot at United Oil Products. Here's a bit on his accomplishments... http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Walter-Bajek/267593315 He said that UOP was confident that the future of oil was very solid for hundreds of years. That doesn't mean that something can't become the new best thing, but any pressing need to do so is being manufactured. There are relatively few people with more knowledge of the technical side of the oil business that Wally. | ||
| Hughlysses |
There have been lots of compressed air engines. Compressed air locomotives used to be used in mines. You can also use nitrogen or other compressed gases to power an engine. It's all the same principal as a steam engine; you're expanding a gas through an "expander" to extract the power. Nitrogen works well since it can be stored in liquid form and it's cheap. I remember reading an article some years back about a guy who'd converted a VW Beetle to run off of liquid nitrogen. The trouble is neither of those is a form of energy, they're just other forms of energy storage, like electric cars or hydrogen cars. | ||
| Strokizator |
There are an estimated 350,000 whales in the world. Maybe bring Capt Ahab back. Seriously, we have at least 200 years of known reserves on earth with more being discovered every day. By then, the problems with fusion energy may be solved and the prospect of unlimited cheap energy is exciting. Don't know how you make an electric airplane though. | ||
| Oldog |
Just caught a flick on net flix called CHARGE its about electric bikes at IOM. | ||
| Aesquire |
Kitplanes magazine has been following the electric airplane front with great interest. The EAA ( Experimental Airplane Association ) guys have been doing great and practical work for years now. There's a fellow with a "Lazair" converted to electric. Lazairs are slow, and originally built with a pair of 9hp engines. Later a pair of 18hp engines, and naturally, a lot of Experimental homebuilders are hot rodders. So even bigger engines, etc. etc. The electric model has 2 electric motors, and a pair of battery packs. The owner has a trailer with 2 gas powered generators and a rack of charging gear to "refuel" the plane between flights. He also charges much more slowly at home with the battery packs removed from the plan and placed in the fireplace, just in case they burst into flames. ( he's not paranoid, he knows what he's doing. ) He had plans to install 220v service just to charge the batteries. It works fine, although range is now less than the 5 gallons of gasoline/2 stroke oil mix used previously. Within a few years he'll have the same range on twice the weight. By the year 2088, it may be equal, but we'll both be dead. I note with no irony that he has replaces 2 small 185 cc 2 stroke engines with 2 larger 4 stroke generators and gets far worse mileage. Sure is quiet in flight though. ( it's now louder when charging ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7pWElDaEY Hey, it's an experiment. It's how we learn things. Don't mock Homebuilts. A brand new Cessna will cost you a big chunk of a million dollars, go nearly 200 mph ( a screaming demon for a WW1 plane ) use 1947 technology everywhere but the glass cockpit. The glass cockpit, with multifunction flatscreen displays, instead of old steam gauges, was developed in the Homebuilts. Sure, the earliest was Military, but to get things good enough to sell to Airlines, they sold the things to guys with Pulsars, Lancairs, and Kitfoxes. Now they are cheaper than old gauges. Eastern Airlines WISHES their's was as good as I've seen installed in a "Cub" style bush plane. A modern "fast glass" homebuilt airplane, like the Lancair IVP, will cost you a bunch of hours of hard, precision work, 1-200k$ ( depending on options, engine, and avionics. Big damn bucks in avionics ) Result is a luxury plane that will cruise at WW2 fighter speeds, and has it's own class at the Reno air races. ( actually they compete in a couple, depending on speed. ) the Gold homebuilt class is still a bit slower than the real NA P-51's modified with megatons of money to go faster, and faster than the stock planes. ( to be fair the big winners in that class have a bunchaton of money in their racers, too. Just a much smaller pile for nearly as fast ) For electrics, NOT counting the super high tech world record planes, we have more or less practical things available today. The big push isn't the guys who want to do "traditional" aviation, with the Sunday $200 hamburger. ( fly to another airport, get a burger, chat, fly home ) It's with the motorglider guys, who want to get a ride up a few thousand feet, shut off the engine, and soar. With the freedom to so so when the gliderport isn't in operation, and you can't get a tow. Of course today, gas engines do it better, cheaper, and lighter, but the appeal of even quieter flight is there for the glider guys. ( think of the cultural difference between sail boaters and "stink pot" power boaters. same deal ) http://www.electraflyer.com/ BACK to the thread...... I supported alcohol as a viable alternative fuel. I figured that we have lots of methane, and lots of garbage, and can make ethanol & methanol from garbage. There's lots of research on algae, and with genetic engineering, we can turn sewage into fuel. With a lot of work get it down to under 50$ a barrel for alcohol fuel, and wee! we can tell OPEC to pound sand. I didn't know we were going to make it from food, or that the net energy output would be zero. ( the BEST results have been within the error bars, most show a net loss ) It never occurred to me that it would become a major political idiocracy and cause starvation and revolution. But it has. making booze from waste is still a good idea, but It's not happening. Methane production from garbage is BIG business. Waste Management is making a fortune, in large part from religious tax credits. Finally, if you want electric cars, you need MORE electric power generation. The math is simple. Too bad politicians can't do math. | ||
| Bolthead |
Based out of Argonne National Laboratory, the Joint Center for Energy Storage Research (JCESR) has the ambitious goal of creating batteries for cars and utility storage that have 5 times the storage capacity at one-fifth the cost of today's lithium ion batteries, and they plan to reach that goal in 5 years. - See more at: http://news.uchicago.edu/article/2013/10/11/joint- center-energy-storage-research-drive-battery-and-e nergy-storage-technology JCESR's goal seems a little bit over ambitions. If you google "battery technology breakthrough," you get all kinds of encouraging predictions that seem more realistic. I suppose we'll know which battery technology wins in a few years. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Methane, it's already happening. Think about all that waste gas from pigs & cows & rotting compost that just floats away as a greenhouse gas & contributes to so-called "global warming" allegedly. Well some farmers are now capturing that gas & compressing it for use in heating or agricultual vehicles. Cars uses to run off chicken-shit in WW2 as well. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think most poeple (including those on the quick board) would love dedicated alchohol, electric, hydrogen, or ammonia powered cars, when the math works. It doesn't right now, so those being told to adopt them are generally being asked to spend more money to get less transportation at a net loss to the planet (i.e. alcohol fuels). Personally, I'd love a Zero for commuting. If they got down to $5000 new and would reliably cover my 60 mile work commute round trip, I'd probably already own one. | ||
| 86129squids |
Switchgrass or hemp? There was a switchgrass farm down the road from me a while back... China proved the efficacy of bicycles- recently I read about electric assist bikes leading sales in Europe... I wish we could really focus a serious amount of attention to conservation and efficiency... I kinda puke in my mouth a little every time I see a GM- made Hummer and the like. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I kinda puke in my mouth a little every time I see a GM- made Hummer and the like. Yeah, but I bet you get a jones on when you see an old Mopar with a 440 & a six-pack.  | ||
| Buewulf |
"I wish we could really focus a serious amount of attention to conservation and efficiency... " I think it ultimately comes down to practicality. When I lived in Vienna, Austria, I owned a car but rarely used it. In fact I never once used it inside the city. Between my feet, excellent public transit and mixed zoning, nothing I ever needed or wanted was ever more than 30 minutes out of reach. It is easy to conserve in that situation. The car would have been a nuisance trying to get around the city. In fact, even a Zero wouldn't have made sense because it would have been just as unnecessary as the car. I live outside of Houston, TX now and could never get by without a car. Even if we had a slick public transit system (we DEFINITELY do not), the tasks of getting to work and getting the kids (which we didn't have at the time in Austria) to school and extra curricular activities would be virtually impossible any other way than by private automobile given the amount of time we have. It may be inefficient with respect to resource usage and conservation, but a private vehicle is unbeatable - irreplaceable really - with respect to being efficient and most importantly flexible with what little free time my family has. Most people in the US live in places that don't have particularly high population densities which makes bicycles and (current) electric vehicles unusable for getting around in general. I totally agree that a Hummer isn't going to be the most efficient choice regardless of what someone's transportation needs are and that people here in the US could often make much "smarter" choices with respect to their personal transportation devices. But people in this country have a very nostalgic history with and affection for automobiles and motorcycles that make those "smarter" decisions difficult because vehicles are often very personal to us: we are buying something more than transportation. However, I think that attitude is changing with the current crop of young people of driving age who regard driving as an irritating distraction to their cellphone screens. This is the group that I think will really start initiating some notable changes with respect to the types and efficiency of automobiles and motorcycles purchased. They have a much more personal connection with a different type of appliance. When I was young, a car or motorcycle meant freedom. To these kids, a cellphone and social network do. | ||
| 86129squids |
"Yeah, but I bet you get a jones on when you see an old Mopar with a 440 & a six-pack."  Gotta get my goat, eh?  Grumps, there's a difference between efficiency and art/beauty... I came home the other nite and the movie "Grease" was on- missed the part, but IIRC they had a hot-rod with igniters plumbed into the fishtails, all the better to shoot flames once the pedal hit the metal! ALL FOR IT. | ||
| Sifo |
However, I think that attitude is changing with the current crop of young people of driving age who regard driving as an irritating distraction to their cellphone screens. This is the group that I think will really start initiating some notable changes with respect to the types and efficiency of automobiles and motorcycles purchased. Well they are already making some pretty decent progress on cars that can drive themselves. Once they get that worked out and in production, all they have to do is let them tell the car where to go via Blue Tooth link, and they will be "car nuts". | ||
| Aesquire |
Yeah, but I bet you get a jones on when you see an old Mopar with a 440 & a six-pack.  I'll note that the six-pack design gave excellent fuel economy when driven normally. ( for it's displacement and fuel mixing tech ) Not really improved until "modern" electronic engine controls. I chose my current car as the best I could find as a matrix of fuel economy/sportyness/load capacity based on imagined needs and desires. It runs on Diesel. I keep asking for a minivan that gets 100mpg. When it arrives, I'll get one. I really don't give a damn what it runs on. As long as it's nifty technology. I'm a bit of a gear head. So I'm actually fairly Holier than Thou on the Eco-freak scale, even though I mock the perversion of the ego-resentment-righteousness attitude. I won't rub it in that I use less energy to have more fun......  And as Buell riders, most of you do too. I think it's a great world that Bugattis exist, even though they are owned by rich ego freaks. It's just groovy that there's a 1000 HP car. That is Legal on the Street. Hummers? Silly, but if you enjoy it, party on. I'm dead certain that when the anti-matter fueled car gets here, there will be a thread on "battery fires" for it, too. | ||
| Aesquire |
Scottorious has a legit question. What's Next. Perhaps Strokizator has a plan. What if we install taps on Sperm Whales and harvest the oil? Fish farming on a massive scale, think of them as Fuel Cows, Milk, not Meat. The hard part is the aquaculture for their feed. | ||
| Aaron_thomas |
Using solar power to produce Hydrogen. It is already being done on a small scale. several companies and countries are currently developing this. Iceland is using a combination of solar and geo thermal powered electric hydrogen plants now. | ||
| Gunut75 |
The planet we live on is a giant magnet. Magnetic fields can move electrons. Thats electricity.......  | ||
| 86129squids |
Zombify Nikola Tesla. Aesquire, seems I remember the Buick V-6 of the late 80's was hot-rodded too, a "quad" something or other... keep out or put in your foot! |
