| Author | Message | ||
     Slaughter |
So they had a coup d'etat and the Military dissolved the Government of the Muslim Brotherhood. IF the Military can truly return the Government of Egypt to its people; and not a religious tribe (one of many) - but return Government to its people, maybe just MAYBE the Egyptians can celebrate the Fourth of July as THEIR OWN Independence Day. They have time to get it right. We can hope. (Message edited by slaughter on July 04, 2013) | ||
| Blake |
Sure hope so. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It was interesting to see. Who knows what is really happening, but it was encouraging to see a citizenry uprising to dismantle a budding islamo-facist (or any-facist for that matter) government. I really worry about the potential cost of complete non-interventionism. To the world for sure, and to us as a country. But I suppose sometimes it will turn out OK too. | ||
| Oldog |
It was interesting to see. Who knows what is really happening, but it was encouraging to see a citizenry uprising to dismantle a budding islamo-facist (or any-facist for that matter) government. I wish them well, from the linked report the radicals are attempting to subdue / destroy the opposition. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/06/egypt-on-e dge-after-deadly-clashes-and-islamist-pushback/?te st=latestnews} | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-w n-egypt-nour-20130705,0,5784510.story Keep in mind this paper ( LA Times ) faked photo's of Baghdad to attack GWB. So get the salt. .................. Expected. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/islamist-group-threatens- violence-ousting-egypts-mursi-075541367.html Also expected. when hate is high the usual targets....... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaan dindianocean/egypt/10164062/Egypt-Coptic-Christian -priest-shot-dead.html Something to keep an eye on. This could be an epidemic of government shattering proportions. http://www.france24.com/en/20130705-who-convenes-e mergency-talks-mers-virus Good luck Egypt. I'd like to hope that this is the beginning of a pendulum swing away from Islamism, but it's way too early. Pity, it seems Our President is on the wrong side on this. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
There isn't going to be any real democracy any time soon in Egypt, or any other Moslem nation. Democracy is not the normal state of human affairs, it is it highest achievement. There is only one Moslem country that has achieved anything close to democracy, and that is Turkey, thanks to the secularization that took place under Ataturk in the 1920's. Even that country has become an Islamist dictatorship as of today. Democracy has really only been accomplished in Western countries with predominantly Protestant values. Even in those countries, it has been very difficult to maintain, as can be seen in the rapid decline of the USA, under the Obama regime. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Gentleman Jon,  | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/352784/princ ess-and-brotherhood-mark-steyn Ninety years ago, Fuad I’s kingdom was a ramshackle Arab approximation of a Westminster constitutional monarchy: Even in its flaws and corruptions, it knew at least what respectable societies were supposed to aspire to. Nasser’s one-party state was worse, Mubarak’s one-man klepto-state worse still, and Morsi’s antidote to his predecessors worst of all — so far. You can measure the decay in a tale of two consorts. After she left the shah, Princess Fawzia served as the principal hostess of the Egyptian court. In tiara and off-the-shoulder gowns, she looks like a screen siren from Hollywood’s golden age — Hedy Lamarr, say, in Her Highness and the Bellboy (1945). Sixty years later, no Egyptian woman could walk through Cairo with bare shoulders without risking assault. President Morsi’s wife, Naglaa Ali Mahmoud, is his first cousin, and covered from head to toe. If you were a visiting foreign minister, you were instructed not to shake hands, or even look at her. If you did, you’d notice that the abaya-clad crone bore an odd resemblance to the mom of the incendiary Tsarnaev brothers. Eschewing the title first lady, she preferred to be known as “first servant.” Egypt’s first couple embodied only the parochial, inbred dead end of Islamic imperialism — what remains when all else is dead or fled. | ||
| Trojan |
So they had a coup d'etat and the Military dissolved the Government of the Muslim Brotherhood. IF the Military can truly return the Government of Egypt to its people; and not a religious tribe (one of many) - but return Government to its people, maybe just MAYBE the Egyptians can celebrate the Fourth of July as THEIR OWN Independence Day. You forget that the Muslim Brotherhood were democratically elected by the Egyptian people (whether we liked it or not) following years of military dictatorship. Now they don't like the government they elected they have taken to the streets again. What happens when they don't like the next government they elect? This is not democracy as we know it, and never will be until they get their dire financial problems sorted and shed 1000's of years of tribal loyalties and prejudices. Corruption is Egypt is endemic, and I can almost guarantee that the next 'elected' government will be just as poor as the one just gone. The army will NOT sort this out, and they will not suddenly become an enlightened western democracy. Even in those countries, it has been very difficult to maintain, as can be seen in the rapid decline of the USA, under the Obama regime. Are you somehow suggesting that Obama has an Islamist agenda? | ||
| Slaughter |
The last time the Muslim Brotherhood (admittedly a splinter group) was involved in governmental change in Egypt:  Anwar ElSadat was criticized by may as being too moderate, too secular. Morsi was working or nibbling away at the Egyptian constitution. Free elections do not always guarantee an outcome of freedom. The military being "in charge" is certainly NO GUARANTEE of goodness. We need to step away and not contribute our blood and treasure. We can no longer afford the involvement (meddling) - regardless of "goodness" of any particular cause. | ||
| Sifo |
Are you somehow suggesting that Obama has an Islamist agenda? I wouldn't necessarily say Islamist, but I would say tyrannical. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Even in those countries, it has been very difficult to maintain, as can be seen in the rapid decline of the USA, under the Obama regime. Are you somehow suggesting that Obama has an Islamist agenda? Sometimes it does look like that, doesn't it? For example the Ft. Hood shooting was classified as a "work place" incident instead of a terrorist act, and the President doesn't allow the use of the expression "Islamic Terrorist" under any circumstances. On the other hand, most of his agenda appears to be pretty standard Anti-American Socialism. | ||
| Reindog |
Sorry, but there is simply no democratic society which subjugates women, oppresses minority religions, doesn't permit minority representation, and ramrods a constitution. Morsi was a despot who came from a terrorist organization. You can rail about how he was democratically elected all you want but it signifies zilch. Adolph Hitler was democratically elected. | ||
| Aesquire |
So was Barack Obama. Are you somehow suggesting that Obama has an Islamist agenda? It's hard to tell. First, consider the legal issues. By the Word Of The Prophet, Obama is allowed to lie to your face about his faith, if he considers himself Muslim. Some Mullahs have stretched this rational response to oppression to bless all lies to an infidel, but that's not exactly what The Prophet wrote. ( rational response? Yes. For thousands of years, not converting to the new ruler's faith meant death. For thousands of years, those who refused, often Jews, were slaughtered. Today. Still an ongoing process for intolerant religions. Like Islam. I've read that Presbytarians are proud of their martyrs in many lands, people who refuse to submit to religious intolerance. Muhammed knew this, so made his religion's rule that you could lie about being a follower of the Prophet if it would get you in trouble. This also allowed Spies, saboteurs, and infiltration, all tactics used by The Prophet to conquer and rule. So..... rational response. Not nice. Not Honest. But practical. ) Need the Verse from the Koran? Here. "Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Surah 16: 106 The noted Islamic commentator, Al-Tabary explained Surah 16:106 as a verse that had been revealed to Mohammed after he learned that Ammar Ibn Yasser was forced to deny his faith in Mohammed when kidnapped by the Banu Moghera tribe. Mohammed consoled Ammar by telling him, "If they turned, you turn." (Meaning: if they again capture you, you are allowed to deny me again.) So, Obama can lie to you about being Muslim. It's fine. However, if he is not lying about being a Muslim, he is Apostate, and under sentence of death. Under Sharia, even you may kill him and get no penalty....IF, and only IF he is not lying about changing his faith. So....... don't. ( I personally believe him in this. ) Besides, there won't be Sharia in the US until after I'm dead, so that rule does not apply to you, unless you are Muslim. Second. Obama has stated that you should not prosper who slander The Prophet. Now, I agree you should not slander anyone, even The Prophet, but one wonders if Obama's view of Slander differs from the U.S.legal definition. He has never made clear if it is ok for me to prosper if I tell the Truth about The Prophet, and no mainstream reporter would fracking dare ask him, so there is some cause for concern. 3rd. The above mentioned refusal to allow a professed Islamofascist terrorist to be called a terrorist, or his victims to be given proper treatment as Servicemen killed and wounded by The Enemy. Note that before the confessed "alleged" mass murderer opened fire, he repeatedly acted in the most evil manner possible by F888ing with the minds of U.S. Service members who came to him for counsel. Breaking his oath to the nation, and to his profession. Death is too good for him, IMHO. There are other examples, such as the "Justice Dept" refusing to state that they would not allow Sharia in direct violation of the 1st Amendment. Our First Law. So, sorry, I would not suggest Barack has an islamic agenda, I state that it's probable, and he's not honest about it. I can't state for certain, but golly, sure could be. Yes, Morsi was elected. Then he turned rape gangs loose to dishonor any opposition, has has many murdered, homes, churches and businesses burned. You are not only allowed to show buyers remorse in such a situation, it is the honorable thing to do to act on it. If, just for example, Jeb Bush gets elected in the special election in 2014 ( or the regular one in 2016 ) to the Presidency, then declares religious rule and violates your rights in the most horrific manner, I may join you in deposing him. Let me know. | ||
| Aesquire |
Trojan, I agree with you that Egypt has a tough path ahead. Like Iraq, the people have had no practice at being free. Like most of the region, they have little practice at a "democracy" that's not "one man, one vote, one time" which is what Morsi promised to be. Corruption, bureaucracy, cultural issues going back before the days of Rome, all conspire to make it harder for them than for, say, Puerto Rico, but not so different from Haiti. Obama's foreign policy has been, for whatever Ideological reason, not a good thing for people emerging from darkness. His domestic policy, of intimidation, corruption, the use of government agencies to attack his enemies, ( IRS, FBI, EPA, BATF, DEA ) and the enemies of his supporters, ( see Gibson Guitar ) is not a plus to anyone's "democratic ideal". A continuing, and increasing unemployment problem, ( not all Obama's fault, of course. There is also the move to offshore labor ) the massive and accelerated debits and debt, ( yes, Obama's fault, he voted yes for the last Bush Budget, and has never signed one himself ) and the socialization and exploitation of Student Loans and health care for political, financial, and life interfering power purposes makes his actions anti-Democracy. Under the Bush Regime, as messed up as it was, you didn't owe the future a lot more money than you make. Now, under the Obama Regime, you do. Already the rate of increase of the debt we must pay is growing smaller by percentage, which is an illusion, as it has grown by the entire amount equal to the total debt of 2 centuries..... every year. Even This Regime can't fake enough money to double down every year without an actual budget, and this Regime supports the terrorist, racist, murderous would be Theocrat now under arrest by the Egyptian Army. Does the Army have a shot at saving Egypt? Doubtful. But the average women in Egypt is far less likely to be raped by a follower of Morsi today than yesterday. ( partly because the Morsi supporters are being killed as they attack armed peacekeepers. ) | ||
| Trojan |
Does the Army have a shot at saving Egypt? Doubtful. But the average women in Egypt is far less likely to be raped by a follower of Morsi today than yesterday. Not really. Egypt is still a very Islamic culture and no matter who is in power that will not change at street level. Take a look at just how many have taken to the streets in support of Morsi so far. Sadly there are some countries that can only operate under a dictatorship/Junta, and Egypt may just be wone of those  Yugoslavia was another under Tito, not exactly ideal but it stopped the people from killing each other for the first time in hundreds of years. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://news.sky.com/story/1113127/egypt-conflictin g-versions-of-army-killings Not change at street level? I disagree. Yes, Egypt is predominately Islamic, so you may argue that they are screwed as a culture until that changes. ( I may even agree in principal ) But the rape gangs, the "virginity checks" ( gang sexual assaults ) and the methodical "protests" as a disguise for genocide are a direct consequence of Morsi, his Terrorist organization, the Muslim Brotherhood, being in a position of power. The Morsi supporters "swear to God" that they are innocent victims in the Army shooting. They have zip credibility and a long practiced history of planned disinformation in Egypt and elsewhere. After all, these are the folk that will tell you to your face that the Jews in Israel drain the blood of Arab Children for their Purim pies. Daily. For Centuries. | ||
| Trojan |
One question....Have you ever been to Egypt? Don't believe all the cr*p writen in the press, who believe it or not have their own agenda a lot of the time. | ||
| Hootowl |
"Have you ever been to Egypt?" That is a specious argument. | ||
| Trojan |
What I meant was that if you actually go there instead of just reading what the (mostly right wing) press decide to tell you, you'll see that life outside Cairo and Alexandria has carried on pretty much unchanged regardless of government for years. People are respectful and polite, there are no public floggings or rape 'epidemics', and people just want to get on with their life as normal. | ||
| Sifo |
Sadly there are some countries that can only operate under a dictatorship/Junta, and Egypt may just be wone of those I'm curious, what in your view makes one country different from another in this respect? | ||
| Trojan |
I wish I knew. It seems that countries with strong ethnic differences and historical tensions seem to only be able to survice as an integrated whole under the control of a dictator or military junta. Others are countries that were arbitarily formed by 'our' imperialism, drawing lines on a map and joining disparate people into a new country with nothing to hold them together culturally. Yugoslavia, most of the middle east, parts of the old Soviet Union and a whole wedge of Africa sadly spring to mind | ||
| Sifo |
I wish I knew. It seems that countries with strong ethnic differences and historical tensions seem to only be able to survice as an integrated whole under the control of a dictator or military junta. Sorry, but to me that sounds like simply justifying tyranny. Worst of all, you state that you don't know why you justify tyranny. The US was colonized by numerous nations with many differences among the people. Those same arguments could have easily been applied to us too. I'm thankful that wiser people rejected that reasoning. | ||
| Hootowl |
The US is a bit different. People who came to America were fleeing the old ways. They were more likely to reject tribalism and old grudges and embrace other peoples. | ||
| Sifo |
Prior to the US being the US, the country was colonized by various nations, for various reasons. Territories were bought, sold and sometimes fought over, and the borders were redrawn numerous times. Different areas had very different religious beliefs. Yet, somehow, came together and rejected tyranny. No doubt the tyrants felt that we required tyranny too. Without sound reasoning on why another group is required to be ruled by tyranny, I must reject that idea. | ||
| Sifo |
BTW, one thing that all the colonies DID have in common was modern weapons.  | ||
| Hootowl |
Pretty sure his point was not that people should be ruled by tyranny, but that iron fisted dictators appear to be the only thing keeping centuries old blood feuds and tribalism from consuming entire regions in genocide. It's a sorry state of affairs, but it sure appears to be true. | ||
| Sifo |
Yes, this same argument was made about Iraq. While I wouldn't try to argue that things there are perfect, it hasn't devolved into the chaos predicted by those claiming that a tyrannical dictator was necessary to control the various factions. I admit that the argument can sound fairly convincing. The problem is that once you accept it as true, you basically are accepting tyranny as justifiable. I can make some pretty good arguments for vigilante style justice too. When those arguments are used to excuse or even support vigilantes, you are condoning the practice. As a society though, we have recognized that the rule of law works better than vigilantism. We usually recognize the same thing about tyranny vs. a representative government. I just find it odd that many who are privileged to live in a free society advocate tyranny for others. When you accept it, you do condone it. | ||
| Hootowl |
Accepting it, and recognizing that in some parts of the world people choose to live this way, are two different things. What's that you say? People DON'T choose to live this way? The Muslim Brotherhood seems to have gotten themselves elected. Personally, I'd rather live under the thumb of a military dictatorship than a Muslim dictatorship. There are too many people in Egypt who welcome the oppression for true freedom to take hold. Sometimes, democracy results in oppression. Sure glad I live in a republic. Now, would someone please remind the president of that? | ||
| Sifo |
Now, would someone please remind the president of that? To rephrase your words... |
