| Author | Message | ||
     Oldog |
Unionize? HOSTESS There was a time when it was needed, not now, As for the hotdog guy destroying the mans goods and disrupting his work, there is no excuse..... | ||
| Sifo |
And there were hundreds (if not more) people there from both sides of the coin. How can you prove that the people taking down the tent were union members. I saw lots of people there in the videos without any union "markings" on them helping. People get caught up in the mob mentality at every protest. Editing can make any point the media wants you to see...... So you really expect us to believe that the folks supporting the right to work tore down their own tent. Actually, people don't get caught up in mob mentality at every protest. The Tea Party had virtually none of this. The few cases of documented violence at Tea Party events were from union protesters initiating the violence. Feel free to prove me wrong. Union protests (as well as other left wing protests) typically do involve violence, vandalism and/or intimidation. This is always excused, just as you have excused it in this case. Just curious, since I've never been part of a union...How much does a person pay to be a part of a union. Also, why do people say they work for a union? Does the union pay the employees, or does the employer pay the employees, or does the employer pay the union and then the union pays the employees? Union dues will vary. Ours take 2 hours pay per month, keep in mind we are pretty much all part time workers too. The company does the payroll and bonuses. Many of our employees are under the impression that the union pays our monthly safety bonus if we don't have an accident. This is complete BS (I've verified this having to track who's at fault for NOT paying the bonus. The union steward who constantly tells folks the union pays it finally acknowledged they aren't responsible.) but here's an actual conversation I had just last week. Someone pointed out how nice the monthly bonus is that we get from the union. I pointed out the union doesn't pay it. She corrected me. I pointed out that the bonus is about twice our monthly union dues, half our drivers would have to have accidents every month to make the dues cover just the bonuses, and that just doesn't happen. After pondering this for a moment, she claimed the bonus is paid "from different funds". I asked what funding the union gets other than union dues. Blank stare, and it was time to get to work. The devotion to the union goes beyond any rational thought process. A similar safety bonus gets paid by the non-union company in our area too. Wages and benefits are competitive. The only reason I'm working here is that this place is close enough for me to walk to work. The union didn't do that for me. I agree with being able to choose whether you are in the union or not. But I don't agree that the people that don't pay union dues should get the same contract as the people that do (federal law mandates that the do). I assume this would be a law about equal pay for equal work. Funny you would be against that. Union dues are essentially a money laundering vehicle to funnel money to the Democratic Party. Forcing a person to support politics which they fundamentally disagree or they do not secure employment is nothing short of what the mafia does. I couldn't agree more. I also don't appreciate them calling me on MY phone telling me who to vote for and telling me that I have NO right to request that they don't do this. It's bad enough that my union dues get spent on political activity that I'm opposed to, but then they feel the need to personally harass me.  | ||
| Dennis_c |
If you vote for the RNC you don't have to worry about paying dues the unions will be all gone in a few yrs. And in a year or two after that your $ will drop to and you will work more hrs for less $. Look at history. | ||
| Dennis_c |
http://www.shmoop.com/progressive-era-politics/lab or.html | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
How can you prove that the people taking down the tent were union members. Besides the fact that they were there protesting the Michigan legislation?     Tony Camargo  Member of IBEW Local 876 Yeah, these guys weren't union.  | ||
| Cowboy |
It looks like companys and jobs are moving to RTW states. It seams to me that 40 hrs. per week at $25.00 per hr. beats hell out of $35.00 per hr. with 0 hrs. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
BINGO Cowboy! That and $25/week goes 15-25% further in RTW states. | ||
| Sifo |
If you vote for the RNC you don't have to worry about paying dues the unions will be all gone in a few yrs. And in a year or two after that your $ will drop to and you will work more hrs for less $. Look at history. History has more to do with economics that union influence. Union and non-union industries are far better off than when unions came into being. It's a good sounding argument, but it doesn't really hold water. Henry Ford started paying more and giving better benefits because he recognized that he could build a better work force that way. Now we have Chrysler workers getting drunk and stoned on their lunch breaks and the union gets them their jobs back. I have no doubt that they got back pay for when they weren't working too. This is what the union protects. I've worked in three fields where I could have gone into a union shop. I've never felt like I was getting less than union people doing the same work. Of course I was always eager to make myself a valuable employee. I've recently changed from a non-union to a union shop simply because of the convenience of location. Despite claims by the union devout I work with, the compensation is about the same. The union shop is a disaster to work for though. There's a big difference between an organization that has everyone rowing in the same direction as opposed to an organization where management tries to row in one direction, but the union tries to row in another. Of course I've had the best standard of living working in an industry that has no union presence. How's the union working out for Hostess? Do you really think it makes economic sense to have multiple delivery trucks going to the same stores to stock them with each of your products? I think it would make more sense to send a single truck with multiple products. The union wouldn't allow for that though. WINNING! I know way too many people who have ruined their credit rating while on strike for extended periods to finally "win" a package that will never pay for their time spent on strike during the contract. I was on the non-union end of a UAW strike when I was working as a bodyman/painter. We had all the work we could handle and an 8 week backlog. Really pissed people off with wrecked cars. They sure didn't blame the folks working all kinds of extra hours to get them back on the road. I had a friend working for a Cadillac dealer during that time, doing the same work. Even after the strike he didn't manage to make what I could. Of course I had a deal working 100% commission. That makes for a motivated employee. That makes for happy management and customers too. Unions operate based on threatening management and customers. Great philosophy! | ||
| Oldog |
There is only one benefit to being in a union that is worth while, that is a good education in the trade... I have worked in only one situation where union labor could be called "superior" every other time it WAS detrimental to the employer / customer .. | ||
| Orman1649 |
I am a member of a union currently in negotiations. That being said, the current form ofunions is total garbage. They don't give a damn about the people they represent. They are businesses themselves. Being a business the only thing they care about is soaking their members for as much as they can and expanding their "services" as much as they can to bring in more money. Unions of the old were worth a shit. They looked after their member BUT....they didn't protect the leeching scumbags that slept/drank/etc on the job. They had pride. The scumbags got tuned up...and if they didn't learn their lesson...they got kicked out of the union and lost their job. *these statements are generalities and may not be 100% true 100% of the time. | ||
| Dennis_c |
There good and bad unions the one I work out of we have not went on strike for wages in over 30 yrs. And if you don't work you get laid off. | ||
| Dennis_c |
According to labor historian David Brody, in his highly acclaimed Steelworkers in America: The Nonunion Era, the daily wages of the highly skilled workers at Homestead shrunk by one-fifth between 1892 and 1907, while their work shifts increased from eight hours to 12 hours. this is what will happen to you when all unions are gone http://www.aflcio.org/About/Our-History/Key-Events -in-Labor-History/1892-Homestead-Strike | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Oddly, that same period is also the first peak of European immigrants. Labor was plentiful compared to demand. Wages decrease.  By 1900, the United States was the largest producer of steel with production tripling between 1890 and 1900. So there was more than enough labor to go around, but production still required longer hours. Those workers were paid for every single one of those hours. If you were a new immigrant seeking to make a new life for yourself, would you want a union limiting our hours to 8 per day when you wanted to work 12? Conversely, if employers could find NO ONE who would work 12 hours, they would have to modify their requirements. As it stood, there were more than enough people willing to work 12 hours a day. | ||
| Dennis_c |
The Honda car plants in Ohio were built union the employes at the plant are non union they have to pay a living wage to keep the UAW union out. So you can see how the union helps the non union. Wallmart most of there people are on some kind food stamps ect. They do not pay a living wage so your tax $ make up the difference. After all we cant have the upper 2% pay 3% more in taxes can we. They would have to go back to paying what they payed in 1990. Don't say the 2% create jobs they only do if they can sell x if the middle class can't buy x the 2% wont make it. I know we need to cut a lot of spending to. We wouldn't have to spend so much if the right wing didn't put us in 2 unfunded wars. Look up the taxes we paid during WW2 you want beleve how high they were. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Not every job is deserving of a "living wage". Mandating a "living wage" for jobs that shouldn't be paid that high inflates the cost of goods making the "living wage" irrelevant. Every dollar added to labor is added to the price of goods sold. The result is that you can't raise the wage high enough to make the math work. Nissan in TN has NEVER been a union shop and won't be. They have made runs at them several times and never been able to make it stick. Nissan pays a fair wage and have no problems filling spots. The point at which an employer isn't able to fill a spot because the wage is too low is the point at which the employer raises the wage. Supply and demand. | ||
| Dennis_c |
you forgot to say they cut there wages in 1/2 and had to work more hrs.  | ||
| Ulyranger |
Been a member of no less than five different unions in my adult life. Some forced, two were voluntary. Non of them are worth a damn as a whole in relation to supporting their membership. Unions are about self promotion, expansion for more revenue and feathering their own nests of power and influence by buying politicians. Seen the inside (of a very small union) as an elected rep for my local, the stuff that goes on during a lobby day at your state capital is enough to make your head explode.....unless your a progressive and like that sort of thing. The whole experience leaves anyone with a conscience feeling dirty. The time of NEED for unions by workers is gone, the protections they were originally created for are already regulated beyond what is necessary. It's all a money making and spending scheme now, protection is only for the all mighty dollar.......the Union's and the Gov's dollar that is..... | ||
| P_squared |
Dennis, no offense, but you've been schooled & it looks like you won't quit. Having said that, my blood is BOILING after researching the topic and the news (or lack thereof). When I was a young lad, I felt it was my DUTY to give back to my country, which had provided so much for me. (Mother was a JFK Democrat). I was poor as dirt and worked my @$$ off for everything I've achieved since then. My experience with Unions has been on the the "Slow down/you work too fast/you make everyone look bad/take your cut of the pie" types. You can all rot in hell as far as I'm concerned. An HONEST days labor for an honest days pay. You pull that Michigan $h!t here w/ cutting ropes & assaulting folks, and I'll open a can of whoop-@$$ on you. I will not tolerate it in my country any longer. I'm fed up & you can go straight to hell if you don't like it. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Being a business the only thing they care about is soaking their members for as much as they can and expanding their "services" as much as they can to bring in more money. Reminds me of government | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
you forgot to say they cut there wages in 1/2 and had to work more hrs. Math is hard. Your previous post had wages decreasing by 1/5 not by 1/2. Which is it? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Hey union stooges, when was the last time you heard a union leader talking about illegal immigration? Not recently. Want to know why? Union leadership believes that gain new membership among US citizen workers is a dry hole. Among American workers unions have been losing ground consistently for decades. Illegal immigrants represent new fertile ground for membership EVEN IF THE PREVAILING WAGES OF ALL REPRESENTED WORKERS GOES DOWN IN THE PROCESS. Know why that is? Because the Union Leadership knows that new members represents new dues payers. The unions don't give a crap about those they represent other than they continue to pay the dues that give union leadership power. Since 2005, union leadership has spent $4.4 BILLION on political campaigns. This is $4.4 BILLION NOT being spent on promised benefits for union members. That's $629,000,000 per year NOT spent on union pensions, union benefits, union post-retirement care, etc. Yeah, they got your back! | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
You got that right, FT | ||
| Kenm123t |
FB stupid is as stupid does | ||
| Sifo |
I agree that at one time unions played in important roll in some employment sectors. Can ANYONE explain to me why the freaking teachers need a union though? Did they ever have dangerous conditions where they may get killed due to the ambivalence of their employer? Were they ever expected to work unrealistically long work days? I just don't understand the need for this union. To make matters worse, their employer, the school district is on the same side of the public funds feeding trough as the union. It's the taxpayer on the opposite side and they don't have a place at the negotiation table. For some reason, my friends that are most concerned about losing their jobs (long before the current economy too) are union workers. I've never been clear if it's insecurity of the individual, or just a fact of working from one contract to the next. Over the years I've become more and more convinced it's the stress of always having contract negotiations pending. A very good friend is always worried about this. First day on my new job, I was asked to attend the company meeting for the beginning of the work year. First thing on the meeting's agenda... "Great news... We signed a contract!" There was an audible sigh of relief from the room. My first thought... OMG, I just got into one of these companies. It's going to get pretty hinky if they ever expect me to strike and picket. This morning we had a minor issue that management had to address with 10 of our drivers. I was one of them. No big deal, but some residents near a school have complained, so some minor changes are being made. I come in this afternoon and our union rep is spreading some BS about what is going on and has everyone in a tizzy. Next thing you know management has to come out and straighten all this out. I swear, it seems like these union reps do this crap just to rile up the workers. I've only been there since August, but I'm seeing this pattern happen over and over. Am I ever going to trust this union rep to represent me? NO F'NG WAY! | ||
| Sifo |
That's $629,000,000 per year NOT spent on union pensions, union benefits, union post-retirement care, etc. That's $629,000,000 per year of the workers wages taken from the workers. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yep. | ||
| Aesquire |
Public workers, State local federal when unionized you have one force on Both sides of the bargaining table. That's why Government wages are now higher in many cases than people who work in the real world. Once upon a time, Unions were a great thing. Bad men running the workers into the ground like peasants, incredibly bad working conditions and callous disregard for safety. Some of that still goes on, despite thousands of pages of laws meant to prevent it. And... by incredibly bad working conditions, I mean when not needful. The Soaking pits at a steel mill are incredibly bad working conditions, the flag man at a construction site in bad weather, The Mail Carrier in the snow in the dark, engineers in the merchant marine, fisherman....etc. etc. Hell, Farmers. All work in hard conditions, and there is no utopian way out of that. You want fish? someone has to go out to sea. You want bluejeans? someone has to be an engine wiper on a freighter. etc. etc. Where we HAVE had improvement is in the many factory jobs that are no longer dark sweatshops. ( true, many of those jobs moved to dark sweatshops overseas ) For that, and many other things, we have the Unions and the politicians that didn't suck to thank. But it's not the early 20th century anymore. Non Union shops have higher productivity, slightly lower wages, and generally happier employees than union shops. THAT'S WHY union membership is declining. Not Union car plants in the South have in many cases higher productivity and quality than the parent companies home factory. True for Toyota, Subaru, and Mercedes. ( and as surprised as Toyota was that those dang stupid redneck Americans built cars BETTER than the dedicated superior folk back home, ( the older Japanese are sorta racist ) especially when the stupid Americans insisted on stopping the line when they saw a problem, instead of summoning a manager to make a decision, that's nothing compared to the utter shock when the Teutonic Lords of The Universe at Mercedes found the primitive Americans built better cars. ( of course, they forgot that the cars built at home were built by Vietnamese and Turks.... ) This despite the continuing complaints from consumers that the Dodge cars built under German management were not only worse built, but uglier than the ones built before, and after. There are a couple of problems with Unions in the 21sty century. 1. the political crap. How much money is taken from people who actually work, and given to politicians to keep Union Management rich? A. Billions. That's why Unions have thugs. To keep the "workers" in line. Sorta like the local Baron. 2. Union Shops have as a matter of design, a hostile relationship, and strict separation, between "labor" and "management". In many union shops, you cannot get a raise by being a good worker. it's not allowed. You can't do work not allowed by contract, no matter if it's to help the company, or help yourself to improve your position. 3. You can't improve your position. If you are a union peasant, you will never get a better job. Management can't, and the Unions Won't, let you. Other people may have other complaints, like the resorts payed for by Union Dues only for Union Management. The corruption endemic in that sort of thing. Why did Michigan vote to go right to work? Because of 2 simple reasons. 1. the demographics has changed. The Core industrial city of Detroit ( and the exurbs of Flint, etc. etc. ) has lost jobs, population, and votes. The rest of the state are not urban/progressive/union types. 2. The unions tried to make it mandatory to pay dues even if not a member, across the board. They pushed the wrong people too hard at the wrong time. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Want to start a fight give a merit bonus every quarter and you will have Union Rep in your office asking why didnt every one get one. That BS went on for a year last time they threatened to sue I said you win no one gets one and I expect you to collect the bonuses paid already and return the funds with intrest! Thats what they did made 4 guys give back $ 2500 each. Or they had to split it with the other employees IE the lazy guys the bonus plan was set up to motivate. Stupid is as Stupid does ! | ||
| 6gears |
I really don't give a crap about all this on a motorcycle forum but I do have one question aimed at Fat Bastard.... Do you feel that because you are an admin on this board that you can get away with all the personal insults and such?? You know...the ones like union members can't read well, math is hard, and calling us stooges. Constructive debating, that is debating with the goal of educating and being educated on issues in order to elevate all involved, is healthy. It is helpful to debate an issue but when the personal attacks or belittling of the opposing side's stance begin, the debate then becomes a different ballgame. Those who are assertive debaters can support their thoughts with facts and opinion, whereas those who are aggressive debaters resort to personal and demeaning words and tone. Not only is it counterproductive to debate in this manner it will almost always cause people to turn away from your point of view and distance themselves from you as well. | ||
| Dennis_c |
Just the right wing in Michigan the people did not vote for it |
