| Author |
Message |
    
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 08:09 am: | 
|
John Lott made a great point in an article yesterday...
He pointed out the core logical fallacy of gun control.
The "control" position, particularly in the light of emotionally charged tragedies, is that "if even one life could be saved, then we must ban guns". The problem with that is that if it is true, then it is ALSO true that "if even one life could be saved by legal gun ownership, then guns must be legal".
Which goes to Darksides comment... what about the other side of the equation? What if you suddenly find yourself in a position where you want to be able to protect yourself, but don't already have a gun, and you have to wait 3 days to be able to do it? Do you just call "time out" when somebody comes breaking through the front door?
For me, the 3 day wait is just a bother. It means two trips and a lot of extra driving. I work for a living, I don't have hours to waste running back and forth for no reason, and I'm not sure that a 3 day waiting period has much effect on the likelihood of criminal use of a gun. The instant background checks are a reasonable control though, and seem prudent and efficient. I have no beef with those (except I think the records should be destroyed to protect my privacy). |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 08:29 am: |
|
Personally, I'm against the death penalty.
Let me clarify that.
I am against any death penalty issued by our legal system. I am not against or above retribution.
I'm also against abortion, but I don't think there should be any law for or against it.
Render to no man evil for evil. Unless you are actively trying to kill me, you will survive the encounter. |
Pikeben08
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 09:10 am: |
|
"Which goes to Darksides comment... what about the other side of the equation? What if you suddenly find yourself in a position where you want to be able to protect yourself, but don't already have a gun, and you have to wait 3 days to be able to do it? Do you just call "time out" when somebody comes breaking through the front door?"
I'm actually against gun control, but I think you'd have to call timeout to run to the gun store regardless of the three day wait period.
I think in most situations you have no advance warning so you either already have a gun or you don't. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 10:27 am: |
|
Thats simply false. Many threatening circumstances have clear indicators that are well in advance.
I was speaking from personal experience. I had time to purchase a gun. I did not have time to wait three days and purchase a gun.
Fortunately, I didn't need one, but I didn't know if I needed it or not. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:03 am: |
|
The 3 day waiting period when you find yourself in need of protection comes only after applying for and waiting, currently about 4 months, for your FOID card. This is a joke, considering the fact that you have to also pass the federal background check done when you purchase your gun. Cook county also requires training at facilities that don't exist in Cook county. Why is a Constitutional right subject to delay?
Domestic violence victims often have warning that things are developing toward a bad end. They may not have 3 days of warning though. Is there ANY evidence that waiting periods prevent killings? Doesn't just having to go gun shopping give an ample opportunity to cool off? At that point it's already a premeditated act, not an act of passion.
Does the possibility of a harsh penalty keep people from killing others? You bet. It kept me from going on the urban hunting trip I mentioned earlier. Does that get compiled into any statistical analysis? Of course not, only the examples where it didn't stop someone. Give me immunity and I would do that urban hunt today.
The experiments have been done and it's not much of a secret that areas with strict gun laws tend to have more violent crime than areas with lax gun laws. An armed society is a polite society. I find it funny that people say we don't want things to return to how the "wild west" was. The reality is that the wild west myth is based on a very few individuals, not typical life. The reality is that you were far safer from being shot in the wild west than you are in Chicago. |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 03:13 pm: |
|
I find it funny that people say we don't want things to return to how the "wild west" was.
The ones saying it are the ones who would not survive that type of environment.
The loudmouths of today wouldn't live long in my world. |
Macbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 03:21 pm: |
|
Sifo, I see you live in Illinois. I can walk into a store in Georgia and walk out with a gun in less than 30 minutes. I am big supporter of gun rights but the fact you can get a gun so quickly and so easily even makes me nervous. And this is only because someone who might be temporarily off his rocker because he/she caught the significant other cheating, got fired, or whatever can walk in, walk out and then do some harm. I see no problem with a 24 hour waiting period. Anything beyond that and you can argue what the value of the waiting period. |
Ourdee
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 03:43 pm: |
|
The FOID card..... you have to have it to buy a bullet. I don't have to wait to get a gun. One trip to the hardware store and 15 minutes in my garage and I have a shotgun. Hard part is getting ammo.
I recently took up archery. With todays bows the Indians may have won. In less than a week of shooting they had me grouping 2 inches at 25 yards. I'm still trying to get it down to an inch. I've found an instructor for lessons over the winter. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 04:51 pm: |
|
Loudmouths didn't live long in the "wild west" either. |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 05:46 pm: |
|
Three days? The geniuses of CA make you wait ten days. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 05:56 pm: |
|
Has anyone ever even heard of a case of someone purchasing a gun for a rage killing? I know I haven't. A waiting period to prevent this sounds good, but I'm betting that it's a solution to a problem that never existed. Why does a person who already owns multiple guns have to wait to buy another? Why does a person trading one gun for another have to wait? Really, if I currently have a gun, there's just no point in making me wait 3 days to get another one, just in case I'm planning on walking out of the store and blasting someone. It's all just putting obstacles in the way of a Constitutional right. Imagine doing this to anything else in the bill of rights. |
Xdigitalx
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 06:18 pm: |
|
Sometime inbetween your gun purchases... you may have gone psycho and it may be documented somewhere. That seems reasonable to me. Not that that would stop anything from happening,.. it may just be enough to send you over that edge too. Depending on how psycho you are. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 06:40 pm: |
|
Sometime inbetween your gun purchases... you may have gone psycho and it may be documented somewhere. That seems reasonable to me. Not that that would stop anything from happening,.. it may just be enough to send you over that edge too. Depending on how psycho you are.
Well that's what the federal check is for on every gun purchase, regardless of state. The three day wait has nothing to do with doing any checks on you. I could be convinced that this is a reasonable thing, but for the life of me, it just seems like hoops to jump through to protect the public from a theoretical threat that has never presented itself in real life.
A 10 day waiting period. One more reason to stay away from the left coast. It really is a PITA. The shop I like to deal with is close to an hour away, unless you go during rush hour(s). Then you have to find time for a second trip too. It's a funny thing, but on the day you come back to pick up your new gun, you can add more guns to your purchase and take them with you that day. I guess they want to make it easier for those putting together an arsenal. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 06:59 pm: |
|
So you've come home early and found your spouse doing the nasty with someone else.
In a fit of rage you...
A) grab a butcher knife from the kitchen...
B) grab you son's baseball bat...
C) grab the fireplace poker...
or
D) grab the yellow pages to look for the nearest firearms dealer... |
Darth_villar
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 07:09 pm: |
|
E) Go to the dealer, ask what the best weapon to assassinate your dealer beloved is, assuming you aren't familiar with firearms.
The waiting period makes no sense. The instant verification process is logical, and IMHO does not infringe upon our rights.
If you are intent enough and lucid enough to find your nearest dealer and proceed to dedicate thought to the best killing weapon, I suspect you may be able to make due with another weapon.
The waiting period exists within the logical (falsely) realm of controlling YOU. Not competent enough control your own desires? Let us (Government) help you and cool your jets by waiting X days. Sounds like unconstitutional bs to me. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 07:13 pm: |
|
According to the people currently in power, the greatest threat to America ( them, actually ) is recent veterans, people who love the Constitution too much, ( which I think is every immigrant from Eastern Europe ) and radical religious fanatics. ( Christians )
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/3/cha nge-on-veterans-gun-rights-lights-fire/?page=all#p agebreak
Every despot, every tyrant, every ruler by terror and force of arms, has had weapon control laws.
In Japan, possession of a sword by other than the proper, approved warriors, was punishable by death.
Why do you think all those martial arts weapons are agricultural tools? Nunchucks? rice flails. Used to beat the grain out of stalks. Little one hand scythes/sickles? rice harvesting. Other, obvious weapons, like Shuriken, were outlaw weapons, used by bad guys and ninjas. Ninjitsu was an underground art meant for anti-shogun rebels who enacted justice on the untouchable elite. Vigilantes. Think The Punisher. Folk heroes. In movie form, Easterns. ( Westerns with swords )
Nazi Germany? made sure the Jews were disarmed before Kristalnacht.
Soviet Union? Seriously? Armed Peasants? Ask the Ukranians.
Burma? death penalty. ( that's up to date, not ancient history. )
China? Disarmed by the Kings. The Emperors, the warlords, The Communists. Oddly none of them thought having armed peasants was a good idea.
Back to the thread.
I'm against the Death Penalty. ( Pwnzor & I may be in agreement 90% here )
I'm also in favor of never, ever, ever, letting child rapists out on the streets. Every sign is that they will do it again, and counseling doesn't work in the vast majority of cases. ( if it did, would we have sex crime registration? )
In a personal case, I was lucky that the guilty party was in jail when I found out about his actions. The DA has been informed ( not by me ) that his release would be welcomed by some in the community, and the DA has sworn to attend every Parole hearing with that happy news. To save the molester's life.
Guns have nothing to do with this. On a completely unrelated note.... I know people expert in weapons ranging from atlatls to cannon, with no gaps in between. ( I suck at atlatl, btw. Biblical sling? Pretty darn good. ) |
7873jake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 07:14 pm: |
|
What about sales between private owners? Here in F-L-A, you sell me a gun, its cash and carry, bub. I go to Harry's Guns and I'm stuck waiting.
I agree we should all be better protected from <ahem> Mayhem |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 07:56 pm: |
|
If I was, hypothetically, going to be bad, I'd go downtown, talk to a few guys on the corners, and get a stolen gun. ( I'm going to be bad, so who cares? ) Not that I would do such a thing, I have no intention of being bad.
Odd how the most ardent supporters of gun control never seem to agree with the NRA that we should have mandatory punishment for those who use guns in CRIME. It violates the Judges ability to make Judgment, we are told.
Of course there are the people who are seriously "liberal" and will scream at someone for owning a f***&G gun, but excuse a kiddie rapist like Roman Polanski, because it wasn't Rape, Rape. ( yes, you Whoopi. You used to be funny, and I liked your movies... WTF happened to you? )
( Polanski? What did he do? Invite a 14 year old over for picture taking. At pool, in Bikini. Get teen drunk. Seduce. Insist on Anal sex. Be told no. Drug teen. Have such sex with dangerously intoxicated teen against her will. Be arrested, convicted, and flee before sentencing. Continue to be famous. Have Whoopi love you. Very Strange people. ) |
Just_ziptab
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 08:41 pm: |
|
And then we have............
.....Zip guns!
I saw a damned nice one in .22 rim fire,made out of a rail road spike.
I made one out of a bicycle spoke. Nipple for the barrel and the spoke for the hand grip. Powder charge is the tips of 'strike anywhere' match heads. Small round rock for a bullet............course kinda unhandy because you have to fire it by heating up the barrel with a lighter to cause a cook off. Pretty anaemic too...but still!
There are probably thousands of ways to launch a deadly projectile....or blow something up. Ripleys believe or not had a story about a prisoner that committed suicide with a deck of cards,a kerosene lantern and a pipe. Old OLD playing cards that were made with cellulose(?) ....shredded and mashed with water,packed into a pipe and then he bowed his head over it as he heated the pipe with the lantern.Something like plastic explosive and it leveled several jail cells if IRC |
Doubled
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 10:52 pm: |
|
I'm sorry, but am I hearing that this guy (had he not killed himself already) should not be executed? He destroyed how many lives and he should be able to live out his own? I strongly disagree.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/04/fbi-says-man- charged-in-alaska-barista-death-sexually-assaulted -and-dismembered/ |
Rah7777777
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 10:55 pm: |
|
I'm fine with a few days wait....
If waiting a few days for gun is an issue for you, you are obviously not prepared.
I think someone who doesn't own a gun and all of the sudden wants to buy one and can't wait a few days is a hazard to everyone else. That's the person who most likely has very little shooting experience and will end up missing and shooting an innocent person.
Go buy a gun now, please go to the shooting range and practice, keep your gun close. Now you are better prepared...
And personally, I'm 100% in favor of the death penalty. That's all i'll say though as I think our judicial system is one of the weakest links in this country. This would be a long post if I went into that "rant"
Just please, if you have a gun or plan on buying one, go to the range and practice. Know your surroundings and be careful! I hope you never have to use your gun in defense, but if you need to I hope you have one and know how to use it! |
Ourdee
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - 11:55 pm: |
|
Just_ziptab, We used to do the spoke and nipple thing. Jammed lead shot into the nipple. We just screwed the spoke in till it fired.
When I was a kid, I remember hearing about a kid that had a coffee can full of just the white tips off strike anywhere matches. Story was that he tripped and fell, dieing from the can of match tips exploding. "Probably an urban myth" |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 01:35 am: |
|
sure, wait days..... if I can't get it locally NOW.
I am fine for shipping time.
criminals will always be able to get their guns, hell if you are a Mexican Cartel - the damn head of Justice will walk the f'rs across the border with a gd bow on them |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 07:54 pm: |
|
Gun contol is being able to hit your target.
Limiting/delaying purchases of firearms by law abiding citizens does little to deter criminals. The criminals either buy it on the down lo or steal it... |
Thumper74
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 09:07 pm: |
|
On punishment... I worked with someone who's cousin was viciously raped and killed in Columbus a few years ago. I had a friend that was a body builder prison guard. The rapist/murderer was sent to the prison with the bodybuilder guard. The rapist/murderer had a bad attitude AND word got out that he raped the woman before killing her. He was met with a series of accidents that put him under medical care for a while, THEN the inmates got a hold of him. This was 6 years and he's probably still sore. |
Malott442
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 10:02 pm: |
|
f. Plant drugs in your wife's purse after slowly titrating her bloodstream with steadily increasing doses slipped into her food.
Call her in on her way to work or whatnot.
Make sure she has kids in her car.
I wouldn't shoot my cheating wife....... |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2012 - 10:34 pm: |
|
Note to self: Don't piss off Matt. |
|
