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Rsh
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 01:10 am: | 
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The officers were operating at a heightened sense of awareness when they came upon you.
The second they noticed the metallic object protruding out of the top of your pocket, there life's were threatened.
You not following there commands reinforce that thought process.
The officers are trained to react. They were not only protecting there own life's but your's as well.
You are lucky you got off without getting your ass beat.
(Message edited by rsh on September 24, 2012) |
Drkside79
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 01:29 am: |
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Sorry man your rights weren't violated. The second he saw it he had the right to ask you to remove it.
You're lucky it wasn't worse/ |
S21125r
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 05:23 pm: |
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I think your beef hinges on whether the officers had permission or were requested to patrol the church parking lot.
One other question I have for those in the know - are the "rules of engagement" any different when private property is involved? |
S21125r
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 05:47 pm: |
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"AS far as the cop knows you are trespassing. He has no way to know otherwise when he sees you in the car."
So... guilty until proven innocent? |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 05:57 pm: |
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No rights violated as far as i can see. you were on private property. during times when said church was closed. they asked you to remove something from your pocket. You got smart. as far a a cop investigating a perp, you are guilty until proven otherwise. How many cops have been shot giving the benefit? come on hard then ease up after you realize the cicumstances. Most LEO's have my support and respect. they do a hard job. rule of thumb with LEO's. follow their orders, be polite. You most likely will not end up in cuffs |
Scottykrein
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 08:54 am: |
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I'm just wondering how you could sleep with a leatherman in your front pocket..... |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 12:11 pm: |
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Interesting thread. As a retired police officer with 23ish years of service, some of my thoughts and my opinions.
Bottom line/short version: There was no search, the multi-tool was in plain sight. There was no seizure, when the police left you had custody and control of all of the items you had with you when you entered the parking lot.
As to some of the nuts and bolts:
When the police asked/demanded (police point of view/your point of view) that you temporarily surrender control of the tool, they did so to protect BOTH themselves and you. They have less concern about being stabbed, and they have less reason to worry about you, who they know nothing about yet, suddenly deciding you are going to take them on. Even if you are the one bringing a knife to a gunfight. It does happen.
When you refused/declined (point of view again), two things immediately happened. They now believe, not suspect, that you have a weapon, and their assessment of the threat level of the situation just went up, maybe by a lot.
Your offer/demand (p.o.v.) to place the tool in the car is not unreasonable. Would I allow it? Don't know, I wasn't there. I would be reluctant to allow you near your car, because I have no idea what else you have in there. It has been a long time since I had the class, but 80%,or more, of all interpersonal communication is non-verbal, IIRC. Body language, tone and cadence of speech, ect. Your request/demand may not have been understood in the way you intended.
Handcuffing you and removing the tool de-escaltes the situation, for the officers. Not your idea of a good day, I'm sure, but can be considered appropriate, considering how much weight the courts give to "articulable facts and circumstances" and "what a reasonable man would believe under the circumstance". Courts have ruled in the officers favor before in situations like this, though each one needs to stand on its own merits.
The officers apparently only entered your car to the point of finding your ID, they did find someone at that time of night to confirm your status, and tried to explain their reasons for doing what they did.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 12:30 pm: |
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S21125R if I might offer another perspective:
Tim McVey was already in custody for traffic violations when he got connected to the OKC bombing. Ted Bundy was stopped for minor traffic violations when he got arrested for the last time for his murders. To badly paraphrase Forrest Gump "... you never know what you are going to get.. "
Suppose the person is your mother/father/sibling/wife/husband/child, who pulled into the lot and passed out because of a medical problem or the result of accident or assault, and died because they did not get to the hospital in time because the police did not investigate the "guilty until proven innocent trespasser."
The police do more than write tickets ....
Dave
(Message edited by Akbuell on September 25, 2012) |
Boogiman1981
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 12:38 pm: |
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The police do more than write tickets ....
Dave
sadly many of them do it badly thus they are treated by the public with the same suspicion the police treat us.} |
Whistler
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 01:08 pm: |
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He was thrown to the ground and cuffed. Remained cuffed and on the ground (seated) throughout and after the information gathering process. Now I probably would not have refused the request to hand over the Leatherman but on the surface I cannot agree with the officer's choice to subdue as he did. Over my lifetime I have witnessed a change in the way some LEO's deal with some citizens. Not so long ago, and as a matter of course (at least where I come from), this may have been handled with a little more finesse and not as much force, after all there were two officers present. I know my view about police and authorities in general has changed over the last ten years and not necessarily in a positive way. I understand the real world is not Mayberry but I also hope the real world will not become the kind of place where trust and goodwill become a rarity between police and the citizens they serve and protect. |
Guell
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 02:17 pm: |
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Dude, he never wrote he was thrown to the ground. Police officers deal with scum all the time, how are they to know what he was up to. Had he just handed over the leatherman, they probably would have ran his id, plate and talked to the church staff member and given him back the tool and been on their way |
Drkside79
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 02:31 pm: |
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>>> Police officers deal with scum all the time, how are they to know what he was up to. Had he just handed over the leatherman, they probably would have ran his id, plate and talked to the church staff member and given him back the tool and been on their way
Agreed! |
Whistler
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 04:13 pm: |
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"He then, in one fluid motion, stepped up swiftly toward me, grabbed my right arm and placed it behind my back in handcuffs, then followed it with the my left hand and pushed me to the ground. I'll clarify - this wasn't a "violent" sequence of events so to speak, but I see that as a result only of my very purposeful and very planned lack of physical resistance."
I am sorry, I honestly should have said cuffed and not harshly pushed to the ground rather than thrown to the ground and cuffed. I did not mean to sensationalize the event, I should have re-read his narrative before I posted. While handing over the Leatherman might have been the best option it also possible the two professional peace officers had less forceful options available to obtain the knife/tool. The remainder of my comments are my personal observations, thoughts, experience, and hope. YMMV |
Pkforbes87
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 07:11 pm: |
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I fail to see why the responsibility of making the officers feel safe is placed on me. Is it my job to serve and protect them or vice versa? The problem arose because they started this chain of events assuming I was a criminal that needed apprehending instead of a citizen that needed protecting. Both jobs are their responsibility - they accomplished neither.
Some say the situation escalated when I refused to hand over the Leatherman. I feel like it escalated when the unreasonable and unnecessary request (pov) was made.
The officers tapped on my window because they suspected me of trespassing. If I'm not mistaken, that gives them the authority to acquire the evidence they need to confirm my identity and whether or not I have permission to be there - nothing more.
I appreciate all the comments. It's interesting to see the varying perspectives. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 07:33 pm: |
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Protecting you from who ? You were in a parking lot by yourself and had a knife in your pocket or rather something that looked like a knife. IMO the were protecting you they didn't shoot you or beat the snot outa you when you said no. I aint in love with cops but come on man I want cops asking those questions. There is to many wacko's out there . A girl in seacaucus a couple weeks back got hacked up by a homeless guy with a box cutter cause he thought she was his doctor or some shyt. I would be upset too but if you think about it they were just doing their job something far to many cops don't DO!!!!!!!!!! |
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