| Author | Message | ||
     Rwven |
I just got quoted $1000 OTD over the $6300 MSRP out the door on a motorcycle. Salesman said it was due to Freight and setup charges. On Japanese bikes isn't the freight figured into the MSRP? I'm thinking more like MSRP x .85 is what the dealer actually pays for the bike. Add $225.00 freight to that gives a dealer invoice of $5580. Add $300 profit gives a selling price of $5880. 6% MD sales tax is 352.80. Title and registration is another $200. Figure an hour for prep brings me to a total of about 6500.00 OTD. Am I missing something or being too stingy? | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Last new bike I bought, my bonneville, all extra fees were waived. Tell 'em you'll pay msrp + tax & title and that's it. | ||
| Etennuly |
"GOOD" customers don't think that much!  | ||
| Ratbuell |
Freight is additional, since it (and not the vehicle) varies by location. 1.0 is very light for PDI (prep). I think we were in the neighborhood of 3.2 or 3.6 for smaller bikes; more for baggers. There's a lot to doing it right. Can you uncrate, hook up a battery, splash some fuel and do a quick ride in 1.0? Sure...but that's about all. Think more along the lines of a 1k or 5k service, and that's what a "proper" PDI includes. I know. I chicken-hawked my CR's PDI from the moment the first screw came out of the crate until the tech punched off the job. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
dealer fees are for the house the bikes come unassembled - we had to pay our techs to assemble them, and they billed us the shop rate to do it The doc fees are for the infinite pieces of paper that someone else sued for. Every signature you give - was somebody's lawsuit , and the licensing fees - well the state charges those - we never controlled them at all. So the price of the bike everyone wants the MSRP deal.... I never sold one. not one. 1200 bikes out the door. NONE of them were MSRP. Usually kick it back - if they want MSRP on the bike - it is because they are looking to spend that money elsewhere ie jacket, helmet, chrome, etc etc. find the customers hot button - MSRP is just that - the S means Suggested. You may suggest that you want it for less.... I always countered I wanted to sell it for more. If you havent built a rapport with your sales guy - MSRP is the worst deal you could ever get. DAMHIK | ||
| Davegess |
You have to remember that bike shops are not car shops. The volume and average selling price is far lower so the markup needs to be much higher to cover the light bill. | ||
| Rwven |
How do I know I'm getting a proper PDI? Believe me, I'm going over every critical fastener on that thing when I get it home anyway. I'd be happiest if they dropped the crate in my driveway, gave me the checklist and let me "assemble" it myself. Perhaps the sales guy should try building a little rapport with me. I understand bike shops aren't car shops, but is the dealer, and the industry, better off if I don't buy the bike at all or buy a used one instead? There's a bunch of nice used ones with less than 5000 miles on eBay and CycleTrader. And I don't have to pay prep, freight (if I buy one of the several units available close by) or take the $2000 depreciation when the rear wheel crosses the dealers curb. (Message edited by rwven on June 25, 2012) | ||
| Xl1200r |
Perhaps the sales guy should try building a little rapport with me. Kind of what I was thinking. I always ended up paying MSRP for my Buells when I bought them new, but I asked the dealer to eat the freight and toss in the first service, and they always did. On my last bike, I traveled a way to get it that dealer (multi-brand shop) advertises that they don't charge freight or setup fees on anything, and their doc fees were very reasonable. It didn't hurt that the bike I bought was marked down by $2600... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The dealer pays to ship the bike to the location. Shipping is a real dealer expense. The dealer also has to pay the labor cost to put the bike together. PDI is a real dealer expense. The people who run the finance department cost money. That has to come from somewhere. Part of what pays for those folks is the doc fees. This is a real dealer expense. If the dealer will eat these fees as part of the deal, great. If not, it isn't like they are making it up. | ||
| Rwven |
So what's a reasonable deal? I threw out real numbers and they are being countered with vague assertions. I have no problem paying for services rendered but to be told that there are over $800 in additional fees on a bike with an MSRP of $6300 is a bit much without a detailed breakdown of what it is I am paying for. I didn't state this in the original post but the OTD quote was for $7700. | ||
| Buellerxt |
I say hold your line, Rwven. The bike's come assembled with a few small screw ins by the dealer who pays their techs $15-20./hr for make ready, not the $85-$100 they charge us and it doesn't take NEAR 2.5-3.5 hrs. to pull off a few little plastic covers and screw in a few bolts. I watched it while my bud ran a Harley collision center/make ready operation for a big dealer. Talk to dealer folks and they'll try to justify crazy costs but you'd expect that. I wouldn't pay more than MSRP + tax+ TT&L and I've never paid that much. The dealers look for deals every time they buy something, EVERY TIME, but many expect you to PAY UP and don't ask questions when they are selling because, as they like to drone on about, costs are high, yadda, yadda, yadda. LOL If they can't be efficient and keep costs down that's not your problem. If they want high profits and big margins that isn't your problem either. It's a competitive world and you should expect them to compete for your business. Look around and good luck. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I'll add that, despite my previous post, I agree with everything Ft posted. But, if you can think you can get a better deal, then I say go for it. The bottom line is selling a bike is only PART of the profit a dealer hopes to see from you - future services and parts probably make more for them than selling the bike. My local Triumph dealer had a demo model for sale, only marked down $700. I could find the same bike at other dealers around the country for anywhere from $2300 to a whopping $4200 off. I made a steep offer and noted that I didn't mind one bit traveling to as far as AZ to pick a bike up and ride it home, and rather than try to talk me up, I was simply told, "You're not our buyer". I know for a fact these other dealers were loosing their ass selling the bike at those prices and I understand my local dealer not willing to do that, but it's also not my problem that took on stock that they couldn't move. I'm not going to pay thousands more because they have bills to pay. The bottom line is they have to be competitive, or just wait and hope for an uninformed buyer to plop down too much money for the merchandise. | ||
| Danger_dave |
It's not my take. The Dealers take the fees. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Revenue minus cost must be greater than zero or the game is over. Some dealers are able to do it on volume. Others aren't. Sometimes the volume dealers get hit when the velocity of turnover drops off. Get a good deal, but make sure it's good for all involved. I know that City did. I know that Saves did. I know that Tom does. I always tried to. Try to provide a bike deal that was good to the buyer and good for the dealership. If you don't feel the deal works for you, walk away. That said, if you squeeze every nickel out of every deal, you do end up paying somewhere. We all did in 2009. | ||
| Sifo |
So what's a reasonable deal? I threw out real numbers and they are being countered with vague assertions. Hard to say what a reasonable deal is. If you can't beat it in your area, it may be reasonable. Sometimes it may be reasonable to even pay for a deal that can be beat. There's a dealer locally that I really like. They don't cut great deals on bikes though. They do take care of their customers in a way that makes them repeat customers though, even if their deals can be beat. As for the details on the invoice, numbers can be juggled any number of ways. The only thing that matters is the amount you write the check for though. If you have no ties to the dealer don't be afraid to shop elsewhere. | ||
| Ljm |
I have weighed responding to this post and decided that I can't help myself. I've bought bikes at several dealers, Alaska, Arizona, elsewhere, and on ebay, craigslist, etc. I am over 35 bikes over my years of riding. Some of them I just paid what they were asking when I felt like the bike was worth it to me (maybe not someone else necessarily), sometimes have asked for the bottom line paid it and sometimes walked. I don't mind a dealer making some. They have to make a living too and if I can't afford to buy a bike I shouldn't. By the same token I expect a straight answer: what am I paying, what is the out-the-door price, what I am paying for? One dealer got my business paying for some prep. In retrospect, probably paid too much but I wanted it (old tuber). In one case, same dealer added $2k to the deal for inspection, dealer prep, tax (I am exempt as I don't live there). It was a deal breaker. Every deal is a balance of what I can afford and what they can offer. Don't be afraid to ask, and make them tell you what you are actually paying. End of the deal, what is the cost? If it is different than what you agreed to, walk. | ||
| Ratbuell |
If you can't beat it in your area, it may be reasonable And therein lies the catch. These aren't commuter cars, or Metro cards...they're toys. Period. The whole industry is a toybox (I know Ron...you ride as transportation - we're the minority). Unlike a car, you don't "need" a bike...you "want" a bike. What it comes down to is this: are you comfortable with the deal? If you are...buy and enjoy. If you aren't...tell them. Don't say "you need to give me $xxx off", but tell them you're concerned about the added costs. Do some research - where can you get the SAME motorcycle (not similar...but the SAME), for a better price? Cite that. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't. I'll get customers out of the blue say that I "have" to give them a better deal because they can get the "same" RV in Minnesota for $5k less. When they lead with that, I tell them to enjoy the trip. You know me. I really do that. If, however, we've built rapport...started to talk instead of confronting each other...lots of times they'll get that $5k out of my manager anyway. Without confrontation or WWIII. I know you're a "tough" sell, and you need to be comfortable. If you aren't...tell them. If they can't make you comfortable enough to buy...walk. Someone else will take that extra step for you. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I think others have said what I've been trying to get at, just far more eloquently. I know my example is extreme as I was buying a bike that was a one-year only model that were all 2011 leftovers that didn't sell well at all to begin with. At the time I was buying, a dealer taking a loss in the bike to clear the floor space was more the norm than the exception. My local dealer also sold Harley and Buell and I was already turned off by them to the point that I was willing to spend a little more from another shop that treated me much better from the day I walked through the door as a 20 year old kid. I always paid MSRP there, though like I said they typically picked up the freight as a sort of discount, but also rewarded me with extras that meant something to me but costed them nothing like free layaway and storage for a few months when I bought my firebolt in December and was waiting for my tax refund. But this other place, that is the only triumph game in town, was was being much better to the point I was comfortable with purchasing from them. I didn't walk in and say "here's a twin to your bike across the country for way less and that's all I'll pay". What I did was print out a few examples, told them I know I was way low and merely offered a low price as an opening point to bargin with. The salesman was polite, but basically refused to even come back with a different number. If they don't want my business bad enough to even try, then why should I give it to them? Ok, I'm rambling and it's late, time for sleep I think. | ||
| Greg_e |
The used car industry is even worse! | ||
| Court |
The car industry is . . . I bought a 2012 last August and was reminded of what slime balls most car dealers are. I'm getting ready to make what I know is not the brightest move, trading a 2012 for a 2013, and rather than put up with the bullshit in the NY/NJ area I am just ordering from the guy I used to buy my fleet trucks (over 400 trucks) from. Haven't bought anything from him in years but . . . I know that all I have to do is tell him "make me the best deal you can". Took 5 minutes over the phone. I avoid car dealers like the plague. | ||
| Rwven |
Danger Dave, It's those darned videos of you riding around on your KLR that have me contemplating this deal in the first place!  Ratty & Fatty and the rest of ya...Thanks for the input. Sure, I want a good deal but I do want the dealer to make a living also. I'm not too worried on the dealer's part, they are the largest volume MC dealer in Maryland (Pete's Cycle). They've been in business for 73 years, so I'm sure they have learned to look after their own interests. After work today I am going to drop by the dealer and try building a little rapport. | ||
| Danger_dave |
Guilty as charged Y'onor. :-) Rapporting is a very good idea - best if it's a two way exchange too. I've had fees waived on repeat business by sticking with the one dealer - even though others may have had a sharper initial price. | ||
| Danger_dave |
PS - what are you getting? | ||
| Prowler |
I've never paid any dealer fees on any Buell I've bought new or any of the imported bikes I've purchased new. Only paid this fee on H-D's. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hillbilly Ed has a pristine KLR-650 he might consider selling. And he won't charge any setup fees unless you drink too much of his bourbon.  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Are you financing the bike ? - it gives you leverage if you are. If you are paying CASH ! (everybody loves that - I am paying CASH! ) .... um we made more on financing - so we actually preferred non cash deals At Harley - your standard pdi was 220 for a little one, 300 for a big one; 450 for the trike, - these rates were as of 2009 when I was last in the biz, and they were specific to our dealer at that time. The fluids, the tech time, and of course the demo - etc. Your margins of dealing are that there is a 'PAC' and incentives to the dealer for the units that they sell, and when they sell them.... meaning - end of the month - they are hungrier than the beginning - winter they are positively glommy to any deal with traction. The 'sunshine' buyer.... y'all a dime a plenty - and they will act that way in June and July..... When the new models come out (for Harley - typically August) the LAST years models go for clearance prices - even if they are the same MSRP for the next years models. Your best bet is always buy off season, and a year out/back, but still new. you can get a deal on colors that are 'ugly' too. My dealer wouldn't order the purple... pity, because I had to dealer trade for everyone I could get - just because they don't care for the color - it may mean bargains for you (it was the same with green a couple of years ago - the mystique that a green Harley was 'bad-luck') And I always showed the pdi cost, service record and times, charges, and I made sure that the customer was introduced to the service department - so if they had any specific questions to the PDI - they get it right from the service manager - or at times the tech themselves. The bike buy is the beginning of the customer relationship - not the end. A good shop and a sharp sales guy - know that. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Having worked in the auto industry, I never buy new except on 2 rare exceptions, my 1st bike a Suzuki TS250M & my XB12STT both times because it was the bike I wanted & the dealers had bought bulk & were unloading at the same price as recent used. I can't bear the thought of initial depreciation & being hostage to a (frequently dishonest) dealer network for maintenance to keep up a warranty with more wiggle clauses than you can shake a stick at. I usually buy a vehicle knowing it'll need work but that I can do that work myself & pocket the labour & parts markup. | ||
| Rich |
It's still your money. If you don't like the deal, keep it. | ||
| Rwven |
Danger Dave...I'm getting a KLR! | ||
| Fahren |
I'd look at that pristine used one mentioned above. But that's me - I have never bought a new bike. |
