| Author | Message | ||
     Al_lighton |
I went to a couple track days this weekend at Willow Springs/Streets of Willow. Overall it was a great weekend, Sammy, Brett and I got a bunch of great sessions in. BUT on the second to last session, some idiot determined to pass at turn one ran right up my right side and took my front wheel out with his rear end. I went down hard at about 85 MPH, don't really remember much of the slide and such. Both the bike and I went off the track, I got the wind knocked out of me and have either bruised or broken a rib or two and am a bit sore all over today. But nary a scratch. But the brand new Suomy Spec1R Extreme helmet is toast, and there's about $500 damage to my 1125R track bike. If it was racing, I'd chalk it up to a "racing incident". It happens. But it wasn't racing. There are track day rules, and in the B group, that means that the person overtaking has the responsibility to pass safely without punting the guy he's passing, and to keep a 4 foot buffer distance. They're pretty explicit about it in the rider meeting. After my ambulance ride back to the pits, the guy that caused it (who apparently went briefly off track but didn't go down) came over and said he was sorry. That's great, I'm glad he apologized and all, but I'm still out several hundred bucks and he isn't, and HE 100% caused it. I wasn't even pinching the apex when he ran right up my right side. It was a total idiot move on his part. Frankly, I was too out of it at the moment to do or say much of anything when he came over. But in such cases, does anyone ever pay for such things? Not that you could easily enforce it, but should I have been demanding that he needed to fork over some cash for driving like a DICK at track day in the B group? Or is it just the way it is? I've never heard it discussed before. The way they said it in the riders meeting was that it was "just like skiing, where the uphill skier is responsible to NOT hit or punt the downhill skier". That's the way I've always approached it, so I never pass someone unless I KNOW that it isn't going to end ugly for me or the rider I'm passing. It's all fixable, I'll be fine in a few weeks, but it's sucking to be me right at the moment. Some photos:     | ||
| Slaughter |
Awww SHIT. Don't know if it's still that way but my history in B group has always seen the stupidest, squirreliest moves. Glad you're OK but I had the same thing happen in a B group (they let me run B and C groups when I was doing suspension setups) when the guy attempted to pass me inside of 9 (I was signalling to pull off and was TOTALLY on the outside, exit line. He pulled inside of me (about maybe 70 MPH) when Chaconas and McGinley came inside of him. He PANICKED, grabbed his brake, stood his bike up and punted me into the dirt. Didn't even come over to apologize. Of all the crashes, this was the ONLY ONE that I got up WANTING A FIGHT - I was setting up for F-USA race in Las Vegas the next weekend I found myself getting madder and madder as I read your account! | ||
| Kenm123t |
Had a similar incident like this Sat with my kids kart race. But this case it was intentional ramming. Brian's Kart is ok but he had to take the ER ride on a back board . Remains to be seen who is picking up his Insurance deductable The track manager is being AAA ____ about it and the Insurance company still hasn't called back. Hope you get better soon AL becareful! | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
What a dumb a$$ that guy must have been/is..... were they passing out trackday trophies??!! Didn't think so... | ||
| Stirz007 |
Al - I am neither a paid spokesperson nor attorney so FWIW: caveat emptor - you take the risk unfortunately. I could see someone filing a claim, but...... The story begins last spring, at an early season track day. Newish tires that I hadn't used before so I decided to go B group (C group is sketchy and I didn't want to push, so no A group). Turn 1 at MMP is a lefty. I'm following two guys around the track: one's a good XB rider, the other, a relatively inexperienced GXR guy - I figured inexperienced because he'd go really slow and wander in the turns and pin it on the straights (aggravating under the B group passing rules). Two laps in, we both pass GXR guy on the straight. Dude doesn't like getting passed, so late brakes into turn 1 left of us. He overshoots, drifts to the outside and pushes guy on the XB into the runoff, causing him to lock the brakes and ride out across the apron. (it was a good save, BTW). Next lap, it's my turn and guess what? Same thing happens except I didn't make the sweet save. (you'd think I would've figured the scenario out after the previous lap episode - but NO!) I went across the apron into the gravel (so far so good). Everything is fine until the tire wall starts coming up a wee bit too fast. Those ZTL brakes worked a tad too well....front end buries, I go over the top and make a spectacular cartwheel. (I took one for the team and gracefully cushioned the bike from the ground with my chest). I heard it was a pretty cool crash - too bad no one got video. Trackday organizers pull the guy off the track - no apologies, acknowlegement, nuthin' from gixxer dude. The good part was that I sent you some of my bucks for various pieces and parts as a result of the 'incident' (thank you for your quick turn-around). I'm considering making the trip to Willow later this year. You going to be able to make SBK at the end of May? | ||
| Crusty |
People do stupid things at Track Days, just as they do during a race. Everybody is pushing their limits, and lapses of concentration or just plain mistakes happen. I don't do a lot of track days, 'cause I'm an old fart now, but I always figure that if an accident happens, it was an accident. Yes, he was being stupid, but that happens during track days and it should be expected. I remember at the Learning Curves Track day at Blackhawk Farms during Homecoming '99 this one guy came by on my inside, then proceeded to stand his bike up and ride straight off the outside of the track. During the debriefing, he gave me an accusing stare,as if I had caused him to screw up, and I told him that I knew he was coming, and I intentionally gave him a lot of room. He then sheepishly admitted that he'd had a brain fart. Any time you get a bunch of adrenaline charged riders on a track, somebody is going to ride over his head or make a stupid mistake. It may not be racing, but it's closer to racing than it is to street riding. | ||
| Jayvee |
I bet you signed a bunch of forms before you started, if you kept a copy, or can get a copy of what you signed, it might be spelled out. When the fault is 100% somebody breaking rules and causing a crash, that somebody should be kicked off and out, and either banned or post a deposit of $500 - $1K before he's allowed on that track again (to be used "in case".) Check with the track and see what they did about his rule-breaking (if anything.) | ||
| Etennuly |
I feel for you Al. There should be a law. Or not. I owned and drove dirt race cars for several years and saw a lot of stupid moves. Some causing a lot of real damage. A risk we all share when we sign the pit pass. I once totaled a fellow competitor's race car without hitting him. I had a mechanical failure that caused my rear brakes to lock up solid making my car spin 180 degrees to a quick dead stop in front of him. In his effort to avoid hitting me head on he rather forcefully got his car to stop. We were facing each other as he got rear ended, driving his rear bumper in past where the rear axle was supposed to be. His front bumper just touched mine. The law suits would be insane if people started suing for these kind of incidents. Racing for 'Joe everyone's' sake would end, and it would happen quickly. I have seen some generous gestures on the part of a well off race team after accidentally taking out a poor guy's effort. They showed up at his shop with parts, labor, and beer to help him get back on the track for the next week's race. Awesome guys are out there too. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Unfortunately I think you probably signed away any and all prosecutorial rights when you signed the releases. I'm afraid you'll have to just ASK the guy who did it - if you can locate him - if he'll help out. Glad you're OK. Now try tracking the bike with fiberglass, instead of that sexy carbon fiber!!  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I thought about this before my two novice class track days. It's what would keep me from going to Intermediate, if I did another track day. My guess was that if *&*& happens, then &*&^& happens, and it's my problem. The only other option is to claim it on *your* insurance, which may actually cover it as it is NOT a timed event (which is what generally triggers the non coverage for racing). Its a training class. They would then go after that guy (or his insurance), and force some kind of shared settlement through arbitration. Probably not worth it in the long run though. Also might be just worth sending him a letter with the cost for parts (no labor) and asking him to cover it. And for sure worth sending a letter to the track day organizers so he doesn't do it to somebody else again. Glad you are OK! And that the bike looks fairly recoverable. Thats the important part. | ||
| Damnut |
I've seen this happen at track days and from what I've seen is the track day organizers will not get involved in conflicts between riders on who owes who for what happened on the track. They will however pull a moron off the track for being stupid but won't make them pay someone for their "mistake" or get involved. It's usually between the ones involved that have to settle or not on money. I was at one track day where me guy borrowed another's bike, crashed it and never gave the owner a dime. How's that for a shittie day. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
In my (limited) experience of track days on this side of the pond, "you pays yer money & takes yer chances." Glad to hear you're ok, which is the main thing. btw I can put you in touch with a parts supplier I know, real nice folks with great service...  | ||
| Davefl |
If you had insurance on the bike they might pay out.. I know of an individual that crashed a high dollar Ducati at a track day in Florida and State farm paid out 5 figures to repair his bike. | ||
| Blake |
Send him the bill. If he has any integrity, he'll step up and do what's right. | ||
| Trojan |
I don't know how it works in the US, but over here track days are done entirely 'at your own risk' and if you crash (regardless of blame) it is just hard luck. Even if you could prove negligence on the part of the other rider, which would be difficult in a track scenario, then his own insurance won't cover him for track days either, so you are unlikely to get a pay out for damage unless he has deep pockets and a conscience. This is just one of the risks you take when you put your bike on the track, even just for a track day. Send him the bill. If he has any integrity, he'll step up and do what's right. In a perfect world I'm sure this would work. Unfortunately in the world we live in I very much doubt it. I have seen people trailer their broken bikes away from a track day and claim that they crashed on the way home so their insurance would cover them | ||
| Blackm2 |
I have seen people trailer their broken bikes away from a track day and claim that they crashed on the way home so their insurance would cover them I have seen that too. It may put a ding in your insurance, but if it is under a certain dollar limit, then maybe not. As long as you aren't claiming medical and property damage other than your own, you'd probably be safe. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
still fraud | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm ethically opposed to cheating the insurance company. But even if it wasn't an ethical issue, I still wouldn't do it. I can't imagine any amount of damage to a bike that would be worth the potential issues that could result from attempting insurance fraud. In Al's case, it looks *very* clear to me that the damage to the bike is directly related to evaluating the performance of the products he sells. I am not a tax attorney, but it seems like a slam dunk to deduct the damaged parts as a business R&D loss or expense. FWIW. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Yea, it's pretty much how I figured it is...sucks that boneheads can't follow the rules and ride within themselves, but I guess it's the risk you take out there. I didn't get the guys name or see him again after he came over and apologized. I don't know if the organizers gave him a talking to or not...they seemed to be concerned about who did it while they were tending to me on the side of the track. But after I got back to the pits, I was pretty immobile for the rest of the day, so I don't know what happened. It was the second to last session. There sure are a bunch of idiots in the B groups. I've seen plenty that were an accident waiting to happen, this guy was just the first to get up close and personal with me. It'd be nice to see control riders actually exhibiting some control and not just being fast guys riding around at A group pace in the B group, which seems the norm at most track days I've been to. You gotta pay to play, I guess. The bike is just a track bike (from EBR), no insurance. I probably wouldn't make a claim if it was..insurance companies have a way of getting it all back. Like the grumps says, I know this parts guy that can make it whole again. Too bad it destroyed the prototype CF rad pod, now I'll have to revert to the original plastic. Sleeping sucks with busted up ribs.... | ||
| Crusty |
Al; try sleeping in a recliner. I found I was able to sleep better in a recliner than in my bed after my hospitalization. | ||
| Sifo |
It's always been my understanding that at off-road events you are responsible for your own stuff, regardless of how it happens. Anything someone offers is by the grace of that person. Great if it happens. Sleeping sucks with busted up ribs.... If you think one or more are broken, get them wrapped up. When I've broken ribs, I could feel them grind the broken ends as I moved around. I can still feel the bump where they mended. It sucks. | ||
| Fahren |
I'm not sure I would dare to bring such a great bike onto a track day. On the one hand, it's what it was made for; on the other, well.... I'd be a lot less bent out of shape if I dropped an old Ninja or some such. | ||
| Preybird1 |
Here when we were at track days at miller sports park. You had to sign a wavier that if you caused damage from an accident then you were responsible for all costs no matter what. I was in a begginer group that day at the track and there was another rider that just had to pass me. And i was just trying to learn good technique so i slowed a little and he went flying around me and into the next corner. He was going so fast he failed to remember to maintain speed in the corner instead he accelerated into an awesome low-side then hit the chatter bumps on his a$$ as his new bike flipped and exploded into bits! It was a good day that time | ||
| Stirz007 |
B Group is sometimes the scariest of the three groups offered at my local trackday. C group is usually noobs and they ride generally cautiously, slowly and unpredictably - - and that's OK because that's what C group is for. Group A is mostly racers and riders who have pretty decent skills and go fast. B group is made up of folks who just moved up from C (or skipped C altogether, because, you know, they have mad skill and whatnot) and/or A group wannabe's. So you have the mix of relatively inexperienced riders and some who think they are better than they really are. Fortunately, my local track is big enough that you can avoid most of the cats that would most likely ruin your day.(most of the time). Get well soon amigo.  | ||
| Doerman |
Sorry to hear you got punted like that. Heal fast - so you can go to Infineon! One piece of advice I got from the instructors was to pull in the pits to let "questionable" riders get by. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
It was preached when I first started in the novice classroom sessions, again in race school and again at riders meetings at races that the rider attempting the pass is responsible to make a clean pass. That being said, anytime we put a bike on the track WE assume the risk of crash (even that someone else may cause it). Sucks the guy knowingly caused you to crash. It would be the right thing to do to offer to at least help with a portion of the repair cost, but not necessarily required. One of the things I learned while riding in the intermediate class (crash class as it is known), was either ride around by yourself, with someone you know or ride faster than the rest of them and get bumped to the A class. Also, private track days tend to be a little better, though not always. Bottom line (kinda harsh, but true) don't put a bike on the track unless you are willing to throw it away. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Food for thought; While most insurance polices don't cover "racing", some will cover "training", Riding your motorcycle on a closed course to improve your street riding skills can be considered training. | ||
| Benm2 |
I've been passed in just about every illegal fashion at track days. I never moved past B, I thought the A-group guys believed they were racing. I wanted to have some fun and enjoy the ride home, so I always rode conservatively. I have pulled into pit-out on several occasions when I got too close to the drag racers, just to give myself more room. But I've never been hit, so that would be new for me. I would say chalk it up to rules of the track - you don't have to do trackdays and you can generally acknowledge that the risks there are higher. People are going to do dumb things there, sometimes right in front of you. If you bring the lawyers in, the trackday will die. It's like going to the casino - you go for the rush, but don't expect to come home with cash in your pocket. Just to play devil's advocate here - "I was comin' up on this guy, and just had a lot of momentum going into turn 1. Plenty of room for a clean pass, but just as I get past and start turning in, this guy panics and turns into my rear tire, and down he goes. I mean the pass was close, but this guy just panicked. I did the nice guy thing and apologized, but now this dude is asking me to pay for his crash?!" | ||
| Daves |
Pretty much how I see it after about 40 some track days. In the intermediate and Lic racer group, It is racing! Intermediate is by far the most dangerous group for the exact reasons Stirz wrote. I've traded paint, been run off the track and crashed once, pretty much like Ben described above, while playing the bad guy. The guy that helped me crash never came over or said a word. No biggie, you go on a track, expect to crash. I was always plenty nervous on the Mille R! Buells, in comparison, are cheap to crash. Glad you are ok Al! | ||
| Sidepipe79 |
On many occasions I will back off on a straightaway in order to let people pass at a track day. Not worth side by side heading to the apex. This is why I am not a good racer. I have made mistakes while passing though. Had a bike in front of me that would go slow through the corners and leave me on the straights only for me to catch up on the brakes. I finally got the neve to pass them on the outside but couldnt finish the pass before the brakes. By trying to outbrake each other we both ended up in the grass. I have also been rear ended on the brakes by my best friend which ended in us both in the yard. The way I see it is by getting on the track you are automatically 50% at fault. |
