| Author | Message | ||
     Chauly |
This is "old" news. I thought they stopped it for good! Darn... | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Oh, & here was I thinking your government was providing a leadership role providing a stimulus in being a front runner, putting it's money where it's mouth is.......  | ||
| Strokizator |
putting it's money where it's mouth is I think you mean "putting the taxpayer's money where it's mouth is". That's where my objection lies. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I was only, trying to point out in a light-hearted way that GMs & the Feds actions can be construed differently depending on your point of view. | ||
| Aesquire |
The whole "should we bail out..." question has multiple sides. Pros. Older guys can still buy a Corvette to compensate for their expanding waists and shrinking... ( this did hurt BMW sales ) Thousands of people didn't have to be laid off when the companies went into bankruptcy. Unions workers who had given their lives, and often their health to the company didn't end up on welfare roles as the companies dumped the contracts, pensions and benefits. Cons. The taxpayer took a hit, which under current policy means their children will have to work 10 months each year for the govt. before they can work for themselves. ( assuming that the current admin's view that all wealth and labor belongs to the govt., that you are subjects to rule and not citizens of a Republic, does not become common practice. ) The companies now have less incentive to modernize plants and be more competitive. We are a step closer to the idea that the government can select who wins and loses, by law. Mixed/real bad. ( depending on your view ) The actual bailout violated law. People who had invested trying to save GM, were robbed, illegally, of their investment. The Unions, who had a legit interest in saving jobs, got more power and control, and no longer care about the jobs, as long as they can bribe the politicians into giving them more money and power. There have been multiple lies issued by both the government and the bailed out companies, ( Mostly GM ) to meet the Party Line, as to how much has been paid back...AND the actual results of the bailout. The Volt isn't as good a car as it could be. | ||
| Sifo |
Latest news, well news for the math impaired anyway... The time to break even on the Volt's economy is about 27 years! OUCH! http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2012/04/ savings-come-slowly-for-hybrid.html I wonder if that includes that cost of battery replacements through the decades? | ||
| Aesquire |
If you compare the Volt to, say, a Ford Fiesta, and drive 100 miles a day, the payback time is never. Ever. Since the Volt won't get better mileage. And cost more. A lot. A more fair comparo is the Volt to a Cruze. So $30K+ at 35/40 mpg vs. $20k at 25/38 ( or 28/42 for the eco ) You'd never pay off the difference..... ever. Unless you live 5 miles from work.... It makes no sense. | ||
| Froggy |
Hmm... Let me do some real world math with me buying a Cruze Eco vs a Volt. My round trip commute to work is about 70 miles, lets say I get only 35 miles on electric rage, that gives me 35 miles on gas to get home. To make math easy, I am going to use $4 a gallon for gas, and $1 to recharge the Volt, which is on the high side assuming I charge during peak times. The Cruze Eco with 6 speed Auto is rated at 31mpg combined. That is about 2.26 gallons of gas for a round trip. 2.26 times $4 is $9.04 per day for me to drive the Cruze Eco from work and back, not factoring in tires, brakes, and other maintenance. The Volt is rated at 37mpg when the pistons are turning. Being that I got 35 miles to work on electricity, I only have 35 miles to go home on gas. That is about .95 gallons. $4 times .95 is $3.80, and a dollar to recharge when I get home is $4.80 for the day. Again not factoring in tires and other wear costs, I haven't looked into the service schedules and costs yet, but I assume it will be less than the gas only. Brakes will last longer on the Volt for sure. So cost savings per day is $4.24. MSRP price difference between the two is $11,842. I would have to commute to work for 2792 days to break even on commuting alone, which given 250 work days in a year that would be a little over 11 years to break even, again assuming I never used the car for anything else. I can't think of any easy way to factor in other local drives that would be 100% pure electric, those would be the ones that would make the savings the quickest. Do all the driving you need to do on about a dollar a day? Count me in. | ||
| Froggy |
It also should be stated, comparing the Cruze to a Volt isn't the best comparison. Despite being on the same platform, the Volt is a more luxurious car, it is like comparing a Cadillac Escalade and a Chevy Tahoe and complaining about the steeper price on the Caddy. While the Voltec configuration does cost more, you aren't getting a stripped down bare bones car, it is loaded to the gills. | ||
| Sifo |
Don't forget an extra $2K or so for the charger! http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20018740-48.h tml | ||
| Kenm123t |
Froggy pay the real cost of the car not the Halo electric car price and you wont live long enough. | ||
| Froggy |
Or you can just plug into any old fashioned 120V outlet at no additional cost. It is an accessory that lets you charge faster, all car companies sell accessories for their cars, some useful, some not so useful.
That makes no sense. | ||
| Sifo |
Chevy Volt MSRP = $31,645 Chevy Cruze MSRP = $16,800 Difference = $14,845 not $11,842. Of course reading the fine print the real MSRP on the volt = $39,145. The real difference is $22,345. That will just about double your own ROI calcs. Should we call it a nice even 20 years, even by your calculations? | ||
| Kenm123t |
A Halo car is built for Image cost be damned they generally cost 3-4 times the sale price to build . Get you in the door to buy the Cruze etc Studebaker hade the Avanti thier answer to the Corvette or Thunderbird It was to get you in the door with Gee Whiz and then get you to buy the homely Lark. Other examples are Mustang Cobras Zr1 Corvettes Vipers | ||
| Froggy |
I used the Cruze Eco, as did the NY Times article that did their math. That is even less of a fair comparison as the base model has even less in common with Volt, and gets even worse fuel economy (27mpg). | ||
| Sifo |
BTW, the Cruze will be able to keep you from freezing on your drive to work in the winter.  | ||
| Froggy |
Oh, I thought you were talking about something from Halo. Not true about the cost of the Volt, GM is selling them roughly at cost. I can't name any other image cars being sold at a loss. The I remember the Cobalt was sold at a loss for the first few years, but that is due to union and other costs that forced them to sell it cheap to compete with the imports. The Prius was sold at a loss when it first started, because they wanted to try and sell as many as they could for the brands image. | ||
| Strokizator |
Through the first quarter of 2012, General Motors has sold 3,915 [Volts] - Torque News They better kick it in gear for the rest of the year. | ||
| Kenm123t |
When R&D are added your not even close In the early 90s Gm lost nearly 500million on the Lt-5 engine program and that was for an existing platform as a engine option package. Those were the wild west days compared to todays regs and epa testing | ||
| Froggy |
The LT5 went on to become the Northstar which ended up in Cadillacs, Buicks, and Pontiacs for almost 20 years. The Voltec platform will be expanded upon and will end up in more models as time progresses. It isn't a one trick pony. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Correction the Engineers at Gm that worked on the LT-5 went on to develop the Northstar aluminum and 8 pistons along with overhead cams are about all that went into the northstar thats in common with the LT-5 | ||
| Froggy |
No different than the Sportster motor evolving into the XB motor. The second generation of Voltec is already in development, GM is toying with the idea of variants in the small SUVs and even a pure electric model. | ||
| Strokizator |
Froggy, I sincerely hope you are right. I am not rooting against GM's success. Those companies that lay the groundwork now will be in a better position to capitalize on new trends. It remains to be seen if the Voltec isn't another Sony Betamax or Edison's DC power grid or other such technology that fell to better ideas. | ||
| Aesquire |
I was figuring the Cruze eco, not the base model, which cuts the price diff down a bit. IF you have the right circumstance, the Volt makes sense. Real world experience with a 29/40 mpg car ( VW Sportwagen TDI ) shows an average around 36, with cut & thrust commute at 70+ speeds. I get 40ish on level 70mph cruising and better in mellow backroad stuff, as you'd expect. comparing apples to apples, for $2000 less, same car, you get $25k - 24/31 mpg Vs $27k - 29/40. ( with same basic options & automatic ) Figure 25k miles a year... 806 gallons @ $4.00 = $3226 gas. 1042 gallons @ $4.00 = $4117 gas 625 gallons @ $4.50 = $2813 diesel $413 savings 862 gallons @ $4.50 = $3879 diesel $283 savings 5 to 7 years payback. More than that, since maintenance costs can be assumed higher for diesel OR hybrid. Other cars, other rates...... Don't discount the brag factor. While I went cheap/gearhead/green most folk want the cheap/envy/green perception. Having a Pruis makes a statement. So does a Corvette. Depending on your attitude, you might see those 2 statements very differently. A vette sometimes gets..... "sorry about your need for compensation". The differences in perceived Volt statement are obvious on this thread. | ||
| Blake |
A Volt is a car for those who ought to be taking the bus or the train. As the sales figures prove, it just doesn't make sense. The regular hybrids make a LOT do sense for city drivers. Give me an Eco-boost hybrid please! | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
The sensible solution for your into the city commute would be a small diesel pickup, like a VW Caddy, with an electric bike in the back that you hoik out for the urban section. | ||
| Blake |
As long as the bike has a gearbox!  | ||
| Glitch |
Ya beat me to it Blake!!! | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/04/06/ durbin_on_spending_to_fight_global_warming_its_you r_money_or_your_life.html http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/05/energy-dept-offe rs-prize-to-create-mobile-apps-that-already-exist/ At this rate the Federal gov will demand you buy bicycles. While the Energy Dept will award 1 Billion dollars to a company that will go out of business trying to invent the wheel. ( and that company will have turned out to have donated hundreds of thousands to Obama's campaign, and the Billion awarded for wheel research will be missing..... ) | ||
| Kenm123t |
Froggy your engineering Kung Fu is Weak! |
