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Aussie2126
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The fundamental difference is, without quibbling over minor details, is that the Founders believed that your rights come from nature, natural law, logic and/or common sense, etc. etc..... that the right to rule is granted by the governed...

and NOT that some God gives the King the Divine Right To Rule.



Fixed it for you.
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Aesquire
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fixed it?

Ok. Don't see how it changed the intended meaning substantially. Made it a bit more snarky, perhaps. But why eliminate a word ( god ) that was, in fact used in context?

Atheist?
The Founders used the "god" word, since many if not most of the people had some form of deist faith. Christian, Hindu, whatever, didn't matter. You understood what "God" meant. The Phrase "derived from logic and our sense of rightness" just does not sell as well. Marketing, as well as good sense. ....... Not all the Founders were deist. All understood what you meant when you said "God".

If you are Polytheist...
I used the singular in respect to the monotheists, both in this forum, among the Founders, and the general population. Both current and over 200 years ago. The Founders certainly were not expecting people to have much empathy with the notion that Jupiter or Ares blessed our revolution.
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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

How prone all human institutions have been to decay; how subject the best-formed and most wisely organized governments have been to lose their check and totally dissolve; how difficult it has been for mankind, in all ages and countries, to preserve their dearest rights and best privileges, impelled as it were by an irresistible fate of despotism.
- James Monroe, 1788


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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."

- Thomas Jefferson, 1824


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Fb1
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 07:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"We have therefore to resolve to conquer or die: Our won country's honor, all call upon us for vigorous and manly exertion, and if we now shamefully fail, we shall become infamous to the whole world. Let us therefore rely upon the goodness of the cause, and the aid of the supreme being, in whose hands victory is, to animate and encourage us to great and noble actions."

– George Washington, 1776


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Fb1
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph."

-Thomas Paine


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Fb1
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"Patriotism is as much a virtue as justice, and is as necessary for the support of societies as natural affection is for the support of families."

- Benjamin Rush, 1773


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Fb1
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe, to be liberty.

- Fisher Ames, 1788


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Fb1
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 06:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

- Cesare Beccaria (quoted by Thomas Jefferson)


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Fb1
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Thomas Jefferson

1801 — First Inaugural Address
Category: Republican Government

Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

Reference: Jefferson: Writings, Peterson ed., Library of America (493)


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Pkforbes87
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I love this thread.

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Pkforbes87
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not a Founding Father, not even an American, but wise words nonetheless.

"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

— Winston Churchill
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Aesquire
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And another Brit between our Founders and Churchill.

http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/copybook.ht ml

http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/martha.html

http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/macdonough. html

And advice for the ages.

http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/danegeld.ht ml
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Mackja
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

To give some historical perspective to this discussion, I put fourth this article, which demonstrates that the concept of Democratic rule is not a new Idea and it's origin comes from an institution which most of you would think just the opposite of. With out the understanding of Natural law (divine law-moral law) democracy would never exist. Surprisingly enough democracy as our founding fathers understood it and as we use to up until about 50 years ago has it's beginnings with the Greek philosophers, but found it's greatest development between the 13th and 17th centuries. Interesting article to say the least.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0 003.html
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Kenm123t
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Kipling is a good read He wrote those after the death on his son in the Boer war if I remember correctly. He knew the progressives evil even then. Did he know Cecil Rhodes ? another evil man!
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Fb1
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Surprisingly enough democracy as our founding fathers understood it...

The United States of America is not a democracy.
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Fb1
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I love this thread.

Pkforbes87, thank you.

I just started a new book today, new to me anyway, purchased yesterday at a "gently-used books" book store in Mount Airy, North Carolina for the princely sum of $5.99.

It's "John Adams," published in 2001 and written by Pulitzer Prize-winning author David McCullough.

I'm only 70 or so pages in, and already the narrative paints a remarkable picture of an even more remarkable man, a Patriot through and through, and, of course, one of our most influential founding fathers and 2nd President of the United States.

I'd like to quote Mr. McCullough:


quote:

The American Revolution was made by British subjects, individual men and women who, by our modern sense of proportions, were amazingly few in number. The war they fought was the most important in our history, and as too few today seem to understand, it very quickly became a world war. But the revolution began well before the war. As John Adams famously observed, "The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people." And it changed the world.

There was no American nation, no army at the start, no sweeping popular support for rebellion, nor much promise of success. No rebelling people had ever broken free from the grip of the colonial empire, and those we call patriots were clearly traitors to the King. And so, as we must never forget, when they pledged "their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor," it was not in a manner of speaking.

We call them the Founding Fathers, in tribute, but tend to see them as distant and a bit unreal, like figures in a costume pageant. Yet very real they were, real as all that stirred their "hearts and minds," and it has meaning in our time as never before.

With change accelerating all around, more and more we need understanding and appreciation of those principles upon which the republic was founded. What were those "self-evident" truths that so many risked all for, fought for, suffered and died for? What was the source of their courage? Who were these people? I don't think we can ever know enough about them.

- David McCullough




We Americans owe SO much to President Adams and the other Founding Fathers. What a remarkable legacy they bestowed upon us all.

FB
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Mackja
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If one must be perfect in expressing our from of Government, we are a Republic which exercises representative democracy. I might suggest reading the book "The American Republic" by Orestes Brownson, this has been considered the best book on American democracy next to Tocquevilles Democracy in America. Both I would strongly suggest all Americans should read
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Fb1
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 08:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If one must be perfect in expressing our from of Government, we are a Republic which exercises representative democracy. I might suggest reading the book "The American Republic" by Orestes Brownson...


quote:

"Our own government, in its origin and constitutional form, is not a democracy, but, if we may use the expression, a limited elective aristocracy."

- Orestes A. Brownson


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Mackja
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am most familiar with what Brownson states. We do have a form of democratic rule. Brownson is referencing St. Bellarmine in his structure of government. Monarchy elected buy the will of the people, aristocracy, and lay people. This correlates to, President who rules by the consent of the people, the Senate (use to be appointed), and the Congress. In its origin Brownson is absolutlly correct, that is why I posted the above link to show how our form of governing developed out of the Catholic political tradition as expressed by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bellarmine to name a few. Natural Law was the foundation of our system, the declaration of Independence is a Natural Rights document, but Natural Rights have been pushed aside for what is termed fundamental rights, which is built on a foundation of relativistic thought or nothing at all. To quote Charles Carroll of Carrollton "Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." Seems we are singing out of the same hymn book, and I do understand the importance of proper language to accurately transmit correct meaning.

This is a good thread wish more would read it.
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Fb1
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Seems we are singing out of the same hymn book...

Agree.

This is a good thread wish more would read it.

Thanks, agree, and I wish more (including our President) would heed it.

Thanks for prompting me to find out who Orestes Brownson was. Good stuff, much to learn. The destination is important, but so is the journey.

Take care,
FB
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Fb1
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"The right of freely examining public characters and measures, and of free communication among the people thereon ... has ever been justly deemed the only effectual guardian of every other right."

– James Madison, Virginia Resolutions, 1798


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Fb1
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Noah Webster
1787 — An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution

"In the formation of our constitution the wisdom of all ages is collected--the legislators of antiquity are consulted, as well as the opinions and interests of the millions who are concerned. It short, it is an empire of reason."

Reference: The Life and Times of Noah Webster, Unger (1998), p 136.


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Fb1
Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 05:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"The States can best govern our home concerns and the general government our foreign ones. I wish, therefore...never to see all offices transferred to Washington, where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold at market."
- Thomas Jefferson

Reference: Original Intent, Barton (261); original Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, From the Papers of Thomas Jefferson


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Fb1
Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

"The present Constitution is the standard to which we are to cling. Under its banners, bona fide must we combat our political foes - rejecting all changes but through the channel itself provides for amendments."

- Alexander Hamilton, 1802

Reference: Selected Writings and Speeches of Alexander Hamilton, Frisch, ed. (511)


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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 04:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Justice!

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/03/05/md-gun-la w-found-unconstitutional/

Note though that in this case it was a state that was trampling the constitution.

When will NY and especially NYC be shamed for their trampling of the 2nd amendment?
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 05:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Aussie2126 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 09:23 am:
The fundamental difference is, without quibbling over minor details, is that the Founders believed that your rights come from nature, natural law, logic and/or common sense, etc. etc..... that the right to rule is granted by the governed...


Actually they affirmed irrefutably that our unalienable rights come from G_d.

>>> and NOT that some G_d gives the King the Divine Right To Rule.

That is indeed the straw man you've been repeatedly raising.

"some G_d"?

Personal issues ought never preclude objective analysis. The founders could not have made their beliefs any more clear on the matter.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."
- Patrick Henry





"I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning..."
- Ben Franklin





"A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district; all studied and appreciated as they merit; are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty."
- Ben Franklin





"I tremble for my country when I reflect that G_d is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
- Thomas Jefferson, 1871





"I have sworn upon the altar of G_d eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
- Thomas Jefferson (inscribed around the inside of the dome of the Jefferson Memorial in Washington)





"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
- Alexander Hamilton





"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."
- Alexander Hamilton (1787 after the Constitutional Convention)





"A patriot without religion in my estimation is as great a paradox as an honest Man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society?....The Scriptures tell us "righteousness exalteth a Nation."
- John Adams





"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens."
- George Washington






"Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political, or literary.
- Daniel Webster




On March 6, 1799, President John Adams called for a National Fast Day in part as follows:

"As no truth is more clearly taught in the Volume of Inspiration, nor any more fully demonstrated by the experience of all ages, than that a deep sense and a due acknowledgement of the growing providence of a Supreme Being and of the accountableness of men to Him as the searcher of hearts and righteous distributer of rewards and punishments are conducive equally to the happiness of individuals and to the well-being of communities....

"I have thought proper to recommend, and I hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the twenty-fifth day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain, as far as may be, from their secular occupation, and devote the time to the sacred duties of religion, in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the most high G_d, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to his righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation but sin is a reproach to any people" (Proverbs 14:34)"





On November 2, 1800, John Adams became the first president to move into the White House. As he was writing a letter to his wife, he composed a prayer, which was later engraved upon the mantel in the state dining room:

"I pray Heaven to bestow THE BEST OF BLESSINGS ON THIS HOUSE and All that shall hereafter Inhabit it, May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof."





John Adams, August 28, 1811
"Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not only of all free government, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society."





John Adams, June 28, 1813
"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."





In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, John Adams wrote:
"Have you ever found in history, one single example of a Nation thoroughly corrupted that was afterwards restored to virtue?... And without virtue, there can be no political liberty....Will you tell me how to prevent riches from becoming the effects of temperance and industry? Will you tell me how to prevent luxury from producing effeminacy, intoxication, extravagance, vice and folly?...I believe no effort in favor is lost..."




John Quincy Adams July 4, 1821
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.





John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1821
"From the day of the Declaration ... they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct."





John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1837
"Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day. Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday ofthe Savior? That it forms a leading event in the Progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity and gave to the world the first irrevocable pledge of the fulfillment of the prophecies announced directly from Heaven at the birth of the Saviour and predicted by the greatest of the Hebrew prophets 600 years before."





John Quincy Adams
"I speak as a man of the world to men of the world; and I say to you, Search the Scriptures! The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life; not to be read in small portions of one or two chapters every day, and never to be intermitted, unless by some overruling necessity."





John Quincy Adams
"Posterity--you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it."





John Quincy Adams, February 27, 1844
"The Bible carries with it the history of the creation, the fall and redemption of man, and discloses to him, in the infant born at Bethlehem, the Legislator and Savior of the world."





Samuel Adams
As the Declaration of Independence was being signed, 1776, Samuel Adams declared:

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

"He therefore is the truest friend to the liberty of this country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen into any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man....The sum of all is, if we would most truly enjoy this gift of Heaven, let us become a virtuous people."





Fisher Ames (Author of the First Amendment)
"Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a schoolbook? Its morals are pure, its examples are captivating and noble....In no Book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant, and by teaching all the same they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well as of faith."





Abraham Baldwin (Founder of the University of Georgia)
"It should therefore be among the first objects of those who wish well to the national prosperity to encourage and support the principles of religion and morality, and early to place the youth under the forming hand of society, that by instruction they may be molded to the love of virtue and good order."





Sir William Blackstone (Blackstone's Commentaries on the Law was the recognized authority on the law for well over a century after 1776):
"Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being....And, consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will...this will of his Maker is called the law of nature. These laws laid down by G_d are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil...This law of nature dictated by G_d himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this...

"The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures...[and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these.

"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Savior Christ. It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land.

"If [the legislature] will positively enact a thing to be done, the judges are not at liberty to reject it, for that were to set the judicial power above that of the legislature, which should be subversive of all government."

"The preservation of Christianity as a national religion is abstracted from its own intrinsic truth, of the utmost consequence to the civil state, which a single instance will sufficiently demonstrate.

"The belief of a future state of rewards and punishments, the entertaining just ideas of the main attributes of the Supreme Being, and a firm persuasion that He superintends and will finally compensate every action in human life (all which are revealed in the doctrines of our Savior, Christ), these are the grand foundations of all judicial oaths, which call G_d to witness the truth of those facts which perhaps may be only known to Him and the party attesting; all moral evidences, therefore, all confidence in human veracity, must be weakened by apostasy, and overthrown by total infidelity.

"Wherefore, all affronts to Christianity, or endeavors to depreciate its efficacy, in those who have once professed it, are highly deserving of censure."





Samuel Chase
"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."






Benjamin Franklin
"They that would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."






Benjamin Franklin to Congressional Congress, 1787
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that G_d Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

"We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest."

"I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."





In 1748, as Pennsylvania's Governor, Benjamin Franklin proposed Pennsylvania's first Fast Day:
"It is the duty of mankind on all suitable occasions to acknowledge their dependence on the Divine Being... [that] Almighty G_d would mercifully interpose and still the rage of war among the nations...[and that] He would take this province under his protection, confound the designs and defeat the attempts of its enemies, and unite our hearts and strengthen our hands in every undertaking that may be for the public good, and for our defense and security in this time of danger."





Benjamin Franklin
"I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and governed it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of G_d was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded either here or hereafter.





Benjamin Franklin
"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of G_d and nature.





Benjamin Franklin
"The pleasures of this world are rather from God's goodness than our own merit."





Benjamin Franklin, in July of 1776, was appointed part of a committee to draft a seal for the newly united states which would characterize the spirit of this new nation. He proposed:

"Moses lifting up his wand, and dividing the Red Sea, and Pharaoh in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters. This motto: 'Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."





Benjamin Franklin
"A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district--all studied and appreciated as they merit--are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty."





Ben Franklin wrote a pamphlet called, "Information to Those who would Remove to America." It was intended to be a guide for Europeans who were thinking of relocating in America. In it he said:

"Hence bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced.

"Atheism is unknown there; Infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel.

"And the Divine Being seems to have manifested his approbation of the mutual forbearance and kindness with which the different sects treat each other; by the remarkable prosperity with which he has been pleased to favor the whole country."





Benjamin Franklin
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped."




Alexander Hamilton
(Co-Author of the Federalist Papers)

It was desirable that the sense of the people should operate in the choice of the person to whom so important a trust (the office of President) was to be confided.... Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption.... The process of election affords a moral certainty that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.... It will not be too strong to say that there be constant probability of seeing the station filled by characters preeminent for ability and virtue...." ( In Federalist No. 68)

Alexander Hamilton
"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. second: The support of the United States.





Alexander Hamilton
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.





Alexander Hamilton
"A...virtuous citizen will regard his own country as a wife, to whom he is bound to be exclusively faithful and affectionate; and he will watch...every propensity of his heart to wander towards a foreign country, which he will regard as a mistress that may pervert his fidelity."




John Hancock, April 15, 1775
"In circumstances dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that, whilst every prudent Measure should be taken to ward off the impending Judgements....All confidence must be withheld from the Means we use; and reposed only on that GOD who rules in the Armies of Heaven, and without whose Blessing the best human Counsels are but Foolishness--and all created Power Vanity;





John Hancock
"It is the Happiness of his Church that, when the Powers of Earth and Hell combine against it...that the Throne of Grace is of the easiest access--and its Appeal thither is graciously invited by the Father of Mercies, who has assured it, that when his Children ask Bread he will not give them a Stone....





"RESOLVED, That it be, and hereby is recommended to the good People of this Colony of all Denominations, that THURSDAY the Eleventh Day of May next be set apart as a Day of Public Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer...to confess the sins...to implore the Forgiveness of all our Transgression...and a blessing on the Husbandry, Manufactures, and other lawful Employments of this People; and especially that the union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights (for hitherto we desire to thank Almighty GOD) may be preserved and confirmed....And that AMERICA may soon behold a gracious Interposition of Heaven."
By Order of the [Massachusetts] Provincial
Congress, John Hancock, President.





Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"





Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."





Patrick Henry
"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."





Patrick Henry
"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom."





Patrick Henry
"It is when people forget G_d that tyrants forge their chains."





Patrick Henry
"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun."





On November 20, 1798, in his Last Will and Testament, Patrick Henry wrote:

"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed."




John Jay
(America's first Supreme Court Chief Justice and Co-Author of the Federalist Papers)

October 12, 1816

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

In his Last Will and Testament, John Jay wrote:

"Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His merciful and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by his beloved Son."





"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1820.





Thomas Jefferson
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."





"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government has grown out of too much government."
Senator John Sharp Williams, Thomas Jefferson: His Permamnent Influence on American Institutions, p.49 (1913). Lecture delivered at Columbia University, New York City, 1912.





Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."





Thomas Jefferson
"The only foundation for useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion."
"G_d who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that G_d is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."





Thomas Jefferson
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..."





Thomas Jefferson
"I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest system of morality that has ever been taught but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invented..."





As President, Thomas Jefferson not only signed bills which appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and in the armed services, but he also signed the Articles of War, April 10, 1806, in which he: "Earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services."

Thomas Jefferson
"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."





Thomas Jefferson
"I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."

Jefferson declared that religion is: "Deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support."




James Madison
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."




James Madison
"Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government."





James Madison
"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage....Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."





James Madison
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."




Gouverneur Morris
"... If the people should elect, they will never fail to prefer some man of distinguished character, or services; some man, if he might so speak of continental reputation... a notoriety and eminence of character... to merit this high trust ... an Executive Magistrate of distinguished character... an object of general attention and esteem...." (1787)

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God."




Dr. Jedidah Morse
"To the kindly influence of Christianity, we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoy. In proportion, as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation, either through unbelief, or the corruption of its doctrines, or the neglect of its institutions; in the same proportion will the people of the nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom and approximate the miseries of complete despotism." (1799)




Thomas Paine
"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Britain, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but "to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER" and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God." "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above.

"Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon.

"The Almighty implanted in us these inextinguishable feelings for good and wise purposes. They are the guardians of His image in our heart. They distinguish us from the herd of common animals."



William Penn
(Founder of Pennsylvania)

"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by G_d will be ruled by tyrants."





Josiah Quincy
"Blandishments will not fascinate us, nor will threats of a "halter" intimidate. For, under God, we are determined that wheresoever, whensoever, or howsoever we shall be called to make our exit, we will die free men."





Benjamin Rush
"By removing the Bible from schools we would be wasting so much time and money in punishing criminals and so little pains to prevent crime. Take the Bible out of our schools and there would be an explosion in crime."

"I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat."





Jonathan Trumbull
(He was the British Governor of Connecticut who had been appointed by King George III. He was also the father of the famous Revolutionary artist of the same name. Jonathan Trumbull became sympathetic to the American cause in 1773.)

"If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ."
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 06:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry for the quote eruption there FB.
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Fb1
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 06:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No worries, that's what this thread is all about.

: )
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Fb1
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 06:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Zacharia Johnson, 1788, speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them."

Reference: The Debates of the Several State..., Elliot, vol. 3 (646)


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