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Blake
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)



A partial transcript follows:

quote:

Senate Armed Services Committee congressional hearing concerning pending military action in Syria

Senator Sessions: General Dempsey you uh, in one of your criteria for determining what we might do militarily, you say "you have to ask the question whether the action is worth the cost, and is consistent with law." What law does the United States military look to?

Army Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: Yeah, if I could since, uh, I'd like to address both, cause they are related, so cost, resources, uhm, risk incured elsewhere by the use of force one other place, so you know, it's a zero sum game. We take 'em from someplace else, we use 'em for how long, and, and uh, that's the kind of issue of cost is it. And of course blood and treasure!

Uhm, the issue of legal basis is... is important though. Uhm, you know we, again, we act with the authorized use of military force either at the consent of a government, so we're invited in, or, uh, out of national self-defence, which and it's a very, uhm, there's a very clear criteria for that. And then the last one is with some kind of international legal basis, an UNSCR.





I may be ignorant, but I thought that the United States military is governed solely by the United States Constitution and the constitutional orders of their Commander-in-Chief, nothing else. Period.

The stammering, prevaricating, hand-waving Gen. Dempsey apparently holds that the United States Military looks to one of more of the following for their legal authorization for use of force:

1. The consent of a government (we are invited in)

2. For national self-defense according to very clear criteria for that.

3. Some kind of international legal basis, like a United Nations Security Council resolution.


Ought Gen. Dempsey's answer trouble us, or was he just really nervous and mis-spoke, somehow imagining that he was speaking for the CIC?

His presentation was anything but confidence inspiring.

(Message edited by Blake on March 08, 2012)
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I understand what he is saying.

Congress can declare war (though it hasn't in a long time, and seems to favor letting others make the hard decisions) but that doesn't make it a 'legal' war in the eyes of the rest of the world.

We act in self defense, it is internationally acceptable.

We take out a dictatorial government with the help/consent of the people of that country, acceptable.

A government can declare war on any country for any reason. Germany did so twice in the 20th century. That doesn't make it a 'legal' war, even if all their interal legal requirements are satisfied.

I don't believe he was referring to who has control over our military, but rather when the US would feel justified in attacking another country.

(Message edited by hootowl on March 08, 2012)
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

But that wasn't the question at all.

The question seemed exceedingly clear and simple, "What law does the United States military look to?"

There is only one, the law of the United States of America.
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That isn't the question he answered, even if it was the one posed to him. I believe he takes it as given that the military is under the control of the civilian government and the constitution, and frankly wouldn't have it any other way. The US military is not seeking its own power. It just isn't in its blood. I think he was answering the question he heard, since the question he was asked was absurd in his mind.
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think the question he heard was "where does the US get its authority to attack another country", not "where does the US military get its authority".
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake, you are trying to make this into something it is not. The hearings are about us attaching Syria and what would justify us doing so. The answer is appropriate to that.
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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah Blake, we all know that Mr. Obama plays by the rules, even if he has to make them up as he goes along.

This is interesting, and relevant: Congressman Jones yesterday put Mr. Obama "on notice" on this very subject, and even mentioned the "I" word:

Expressing the sense of Congress that the use of offensive military force by a President without prior and clear authorization of an Act of Congress constitutes an impeachable high crime and misdemeanor under article II, section 4 of the Constitution.

Hey Dave, maybe write Congressman Jones and tell him he's trying to make this into something it is not??
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Fb1
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Some congressman don't suck. On topic:


quote:

"The vision of the founders was to set up a government that would remain small and unobtrusive via a system of checks and balances. That it has taken our government so long to get this big speaks well of the original design. The founders also knew the overwhelming nature of governments was to amass power and grow. The Constitution was to serve as the brakes on the freight train of government.

"But the Obama administration, like so many administrations in the 20th century, chooses to ignore the Constitution entirely. The increasingly broad use and scope of the Executive Orders is a prime example. Executive Orders are meant to be a way for the president to direct executive agencies on the implementation of congressionally approved legislation. It has become increasingly common for them to be misused in ways that are contradictory to congressional intent, or to bypass Congress altogether in enacting political agendas. The current administration has unabashedly stated that Congress’s unwillingness to pass the president’s jobs bill means that the president will act unilaterally to enact provisions of it piecemeal through Executive Order. Obama explicitly threatens to bypass Congress, thus aggregating the power to make and enforce laws in the executive. This clearly erodes the principles of separation of powers and checks and balances. It brings the modern presidency dangerously close to an elective dictatorship.

"Of course, the most dangerous and costly overstepping of executive authority is going to war without a congressional declaration. Congress has been sadly complicit in this usurpation by ceding much of its war-making authority to the executive because it wants to avoid taking responsibility for major war decisions, but that is part of our job in Congress! If the President cannot present to Congress and the people a convincingly strong case for going to war, then perhaps we should keep the nation at peace, rather than risk our men and women’s lives for ill-defined reasons!

"This administration certainly was not the first to behave in ways that have defied the Constitution to overstep its bounds. Sadly, previous administrations have set precedents that the current administration is only building upon. It is time for Congress to reassert itself and its constitutional role so that future administrations cannot continue on this dangerous path."

- Congressman Ron Paul




(edited to add bold emphasis - FB)

(Message edited by fb1 on March 08, 2012)
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jeff,

>>> I think the question he heard was "where does the US get its authority to attack another country", not "where does the US military get its authority".

But the correct answer is the same for either case. If the question had concerned "justification" rather than "authority", his answer might start to make sense. It's never the military's job to ascertain justification for warmaking though, so if that is the question he was answering, he's talking not for the military but for American government policy, which just seems really bizarre.

The senator's question was a follow-up to the General's earlier comment that

"you have to ask the question whether the action is worth the cost, and is consistent with law."

The senator followed up and asked "What law does the United States military look to?"

The answer was bizarre and dead wrong. I guess if he is playing politics for his boss, then his answer is explainable. Outside that, it's tough to see.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dave,

>>> The hearings are about us attaching Syria and what would justify us doing so. The answer is appropriate to that.

I hope you are right. His answer was just incredibly bizarre to me, that the Joint Chief would confuse the issue just as bizarre. All the stammering and hand-waving and broken grammar makes it look that much worse. He's no Petraeus or Powell, that's for sure.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Honestly, the military has no obligation to ANY other nation or body of rules to attack ANY other nation.

If Congress formally declares war, the military goes to war. If we wanted to connect Alaska to the contiguous 48 states and Congress authorized the action to declare war on Canada to seize and hold that land for the United States, there isn't anything any other nation could say about it.

Now Canada could seek assistance from other nations to enter the war to defend against our forces and other nations could seek blockades, embargoes, and other coercive injunctive actions, but there isn't a ruling body that could do anything about it.

If attacking Syria serves our strategic interests and Congress declares war on Syria, that's all the authority needed.

The political repercussions, though, are not as neat and clean.
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I still think he was answering a question he thought he was being asked and not the one he was actually asked.
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Hootowl
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Would it make everyone feel better if he said "We do what our politicians tell us to do"? He knows that. He believes everyone knows that. I think that the question didn't make sense in his mind, so it was interpreted incorrectly.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This, in concert with the Director of the F.B.I. NOT KNOWING if it was legal to kill American citizens . . . becomes scarier and scarier.

The saying "doesn't know shit" comes to mind.

No kidding.

How in the name of goodness do folks in such positions of power get reduced to such stammering idiots?

I recall kids in school getting that way when they were telling lies.
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Fb1
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 04:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake, I finally watched the entire video clip. I'm with Senator Sessions: "I'm almost breathless" about the flagrant disregard for our Constitution we're witnessing here. Listen to the question posed by Sen. Sessions at 3:27, and Defense Secretary Panetta's reply. In essence, "We will seek international approval, and then come back to Congress and tell you what we're doing."



For you folks still wondering if the Constitution is being eviscerated before our very eyes, here's yet more proof. I'm tempted to use the word "shocking," but it isn't shocking anymore.

It is disgusting, however.
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