| Author | Message | ||
     Pkforbes87 |
I know there are some mechanical engineers here. Is advanced math an everyday tool used in your job? If so, how is it used? I've always found it easier to learn any type of math if I can visualize how it can be used in the real world. Help me out and make these classes seem worthwhile! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I use algebra every day. I'm in the financial services industry. | ||
| Slaughter |
Algebra - pretty much an everyday tool. 63cc combustion chamber and a 3 13/16 bore x 3.125 stroke gives me 10.5 compression. How many mils can I shave off the head to get 12:1 Trig: nearly every day for loads. Vectors are used constantly in structural problems. Calculus is huge (though once you get past the setup, computers do the work) Process modelling, vibrations/dynamics. Things change as a function of time, of heat... stuff like that there. BUT WAIT, there's MORE. Actually because you are coming back INTO school from the real world, I'd say that puts you at an advantage over the kiddies whose daddies and mommies are putting them into college to get them out of the house. | ||
| Sdecp |
If you want to travel along well traveled paths of the knowledge, then the math has already been watered down to make topics easy to digest. If you know the formulas and the derived equations, you can bypass some, if not most, of the mathematical theory. However, if you want to see things that you never knew existed and want to see things off the beaten path, learning the intricacies of mathematics is a must. I know, I know, some engineers are working with high level calculation on a daily basis; however, in most of my engineering positions, plugging in numbers into a computer or a calculator was all that was needed. The models were already derived. I do not know how else to put it. For most jobs, if you want to be able to do your job, you use formulas, equations, and the like. If you want to learn and understand why and how, you must know how to navigate beyond the given(s). Math is beautiful. I did not learn that until I got to college. My favorite subject was Linear Algebra. The things you can do with a Matrix blew me away. Calculus I, II, III, and differential equations was just an extension of my algebra classes. I never knew why I heard everyone talk about how hard these subjects were. Once you have a handle on basic derivative and integral formulas, you can solve pretty much most of the problems you will ever see. The problem comes in then understanding what a derivative and integral represent and how to apply them. This is wear you start to travel off the beaten path. Like everything, off the beaten path is where the beauty is. I can not recommend studying recreational math enough. | ||
| Satori |
+1 Slaughter Like Ft bstrd, I'm in finance. Use Algebra daily. Funny thing was in high school I struggled with it. Had to learn it after being in the real world. Hardly struggled when it was a matter of making a living. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Engineering is math all the time. Math is your view to the mechanical world. | ||
| 86129squids |
With a F' n calculator.  Abstract math, in my school history, cooked my brain. On the other hand, language skills are my forte. I absolutely LOVE the lryical skills required of well done poetry and prose. I envy those who do the same with numbers. For a real mind-fzzuck, I enjoy and recommend the movie "PI". Or, is that "pi"? Heck, that dang movie's got it all. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Awesome.. I find it much easier to think of bore, stroke, and compression instead of f, g, and x. Ok, maybe not easier, but a lot more fun. When it comes to figuring the effects of heat,vibration,etc.. are there formulas used which are more or less black and white? I ask because I thoroughly enjoy math classes in which there's a right answer - anything else and you're wrong. I can learn that stuff quickly. On the other hand, current chemistry classes (and I'm assuming future physics classes will be similar) are hard for me to grasp because the calculations seem to always have some degree of inaccuracy. It's been 8 years since I was in school, and so far I absolutely LOVE being back. Definitely glad I waited until after learning a decent work ethic from the Navy though, before I started college. It's a lot more satisfying when 100% mastery of a topic is the goal instead of simply passing the course. | ||
| 86129squids |
IIRC, chemistry and physics will have more troublesome variables. | ||
| Slaughter |
Almost anything can be expressed in calculus. You can look at functions of systems in terms of other changing variables. Induction heating of a material varies as a function of depth and its magnetic properties and its ability to carry a current. It's kind of a second-order function for depth - as are MANY things. Effects of various forms of energy vary as a square root of the distance between them... kind of doubling the distance cuts the energy by a quarter. Where the math gets interesting is that the actual MEASUREMENTS used for modeling the processes are derived from experiments - yet can be explained mathematically once measurements are made. It's kind of kewl. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I consider myself somewhat gifted in that I function comfortably in a left-brain and a right-bring mode equally. Like Squids, I appreciate art, language, style and the subjective (I started out at design school). Like others, I also appreciate the finite, exacting and objective - which is why I finished at a ploytech school. That said, while I grasp things, my mid for the abstract in the mathematical world is a little limited. Algebra is pretty much every day regardless of your job - you nearly need it to survive. I bet most folks do it without even realizing that's what it is. Anything that's "solve for 'x'" is algebra. Calculus... well, the best I can say is it took my 2 tries and I still just barely got through it. If you threw a calc problem in front of me right now I have no idea what to do. I did apply it some later in college, but it was very computer driven and I didn't learn much except how to type things properly into Maple to get a pretty graph at the end. Of course, I'm not an engineer, just someone that really enjoys math and making it work for me. My latest academic love is learning French, so I'm swinging back to the artsy side. The bass player in my band is a mechanical engineer and deals with fluid dynamics of nuclear reactors - he uses calc daily and loves it. (Message edited by xl1200r on January 30, 2012) | ||
| Buelltoys |
I can't say I use it everyday. But I know in school I used everyday in every class I took. Now I just rely on other people. (Vendors) to calculate and specify a lot of the motor sizes and stuff since I am very busy most of the time trying to manage other things. But when I was an equipment designer I used math a lot. | ||
| Stirz007 |
I think Engineers in general (not just ME's) couldn't do their job without reasonable skills in algebra, calculus and (some) statistics. But what do I know, I've just been doing it for 27 years... the funny thing is that a lot of Engineers can't rite or spell two gud. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I use it a lot but I don't really know how, it's an intuitive thing for me, I can just see it in my minds eye, if you know what I mean. I'm constantly running time/distance/cost calculations for work. Also fuel consumption/cost calculations. The shortest route isn't always the most economical, the fastest neither, but it's a constant juggle with tight margins in the haulage business. | ||
| Blake |
Phillip, Algebra and trigonometry will become 2nd nature to engineers who do actual analysis of any kind. Calculus and differential equations is employed more rarely or by fewer engineers. All beam structural equations are derived from basic calculus and diff eq. If ever in the field without handbook or computer, it's nice to be able to recall the calculus to check beam deflection. Castigliano's theorems are wonderful for statically indeterminant structures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castigliano's_method http://www.aaronklapheck.com/Downloads/Engr112_Han douts/ENGR112%20Solutions/09-05ChapGere[1].pdf http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/24651692/do wnload?secret_password=3q3x697d35hajhwn79q Relative to whatever definite or indefinite boundaries are of interest, calculus, through integration of mathematical relations, allows you to find: The area under a curve, the area bounded by two co-planar curves, the volume bounded by two surfaces, the intersecting volume of two volumes, the portion of a volume bisected by a plane. Any physical or relational phenomenon that may be characterized mathematically (as a curve, surface, volume... space-time...) likely has other related interesting characteristics that calculus and diffeq can help discover. Take the relations between beam shear, moment, curvature, and deflection for instance. Or the relations between force or torque, energy, and power. In physics and thus engineering, work or energy transferred are the products of force times distance or torque times rotation. Power then is the time rate at which work is done or energy is transferred. In calculus terms, power is the derivative of work with respect to time. Dyno plots suddenly become even more interesting. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) Will you actually employ calculus or diffeq as an engineer? Unlikely unless you get into analysis, even then, it may be rare. Tools of the trade like handbooks, spreadsheets, and finite element modeling programs allow you to skip over such rigors. But it sure is nice to be able to do a quick hand check for sanity's sake. It's great stuff! | ||
| Boltrider |
Pk, have you started your Calculus sequence yet? I only ask because Calculus is basically algebra (and a little trig) on steroids. I'm no engineer but my math degree has many of the same prerequisites, and a strong foundation in algebra will make the upper division classes more bearable, even enjoyable at times. Sheesh, now I'm getting flashbacks of all those solitary hours spent at the library.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
20 years after graduating, I finally had to use Calculus once... to build a heated grip controller for my Uly. No joke. The linear models just wouldn't hold, I had to use a PID algorithm in a closed loop system to finally get it to work right. PID is Proportional, Integrative, and Derivative. The proportional will crank up more input when you have further to cover, the derivitive is looking at the rate of change to add or remove power so you don't overshoot, and the integrative dials out an offset error at the end. It was a fun algorithim to write, and many of the examples you can google up were flat out wrong, so it was good to have the understanding of the foundational math. Never needed differential equations though... And to be honest, a lot of what used to be the low hanging calculus fruit can now be done with a complicated spreadsheet. But proper calculus will generally do it better. | ||
| Prior |
I don't use calc much anymore, but certainly did when I was doing FE analysis and structures design. Derivatives and integrals are still nice things to know when looking at test data for, say, position of a cylinder and calculating velocity, acceleration etc. I think the big part of an engineering education is problem solving. Solving a calc, thermo, fluids problem etc. helps you understand the thought process to troubleshoot issues, think of better processes to do things and do root cause analysis. My twin sis is in her third year of engineering school right now after a 13 year break from school. It's been very interesting to help her out with some of her struggles in calculus early on and to see how her thought process has changed over the past year to solve these and other problems. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
As a licensed architect, I found calculus to be very difficult to learn, and the only reason I studied it was to get into the Harvard Graduate School of Design in the first place. Once there, and during 25 years of professional practice, I never gave it another thought. Back in the day, architects had to pass an 8 hour exam in strength of materials and structural design, doing all the calculations by hand. And that was before desktop computers. In addition, the consulting engineers that we worked with on every job, structural , electrical and HVAC never used calculus either. Of course architectural engineering is very simple and straight forward compared to the leading edge of modern technology, and higher theoretical mathematics. What I found to be important than higher mathematical skills, was the ability to look at an apparently complex problem with many variables, and ask the correct questions which led to a simple solution. Many times I saw a good practical diagnostician solve a structural problem in his head that had stumped the "experts" for weeks, by simply redefining the problem. | ||
| Vtpeg |
Algebra is an every day for me, was a snap in school. Calc, although very interesting, was like butting my head unto a brick wall. Failed first go round, passed by the skin of my teeth 2nd time. Was in class with a middle aged carpenter getting some new schoolin. He couldn't understand algebra to save his life, but put a framing square in his hand and he could cut any rafter, common, hip, valley, jack, perfect, first time. I always thought he should be able to bring that to class instead of a calculator. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Calculus is basically algebra (and a little trig) on steroids. Interesting. Never thought of it that way. You sure can't use calculus without knowing algebra and in some cases trigonometry. Calculus has its limits, but algebra is limited. PK, learn logarithms until you can do them in you sleep. Very helpful. Above all, the courses in which striving for excellence will be profitable are your mathematics (linear algebra and statistics as your electives), statics, dynamics, physics, strength of materials, heat transfer, materials science, fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, control systems, machine design, manufacturing processes, experimental methods, engineering economics. Oh, and begrudgingly EE 101. If you have a chance to take graduate level electives, consider vibrations, metal fatigue, composite materials, finite element analysis. Skip the cad cam courses in favor of real engineering meat. Cad cam is just a tool. Good employers train new hires in the use of their preferred design and analysis tools. Hands-on familiarity with welding, machining, casting and other basic manufacturing processes is invaluable. Never sit next ta a pretty girl in class. Visit each of your professors in his/her office at least a couple times per semester. Have well thought out questions prepared. Politics matter. That said, research the professors, avoid the worst; seek out the best. Nothing worse than a boring monotone slug for a professor. If he/she can't generate enthusiasm and vigor in teaching a subject, it will be so much more difficult to really learn it. Ask alumni and upper-classmen, and check the student ratings polls if available. In what branch(es) of ME are you most interested if any (power generation/energy systems, machine design, manufacturing, thermal ystems, vehicles, robotics, biotech...)? What type of work most interests you (design, analysis, testing, research & development, manufacturing, forensics, quality assurance, project management, technical sales support, field support...)? (Message edited by Blake on January 31, 2012) | ||
| Court |
Perhaps some of us need to stay after school and have a make up lesson . . . Coincidentally . . . tonight . . . at 6:10 . . is when I do my "once a semester" Math Review . . . but, if you are savvy enough to ride and understand a motorcycle, the stuff in this 3 hour entry level class wouldn't challenge you. But . . every semester I do have at least 50% report learning something "they were never aware of". Gotta keep learning . . . .
(Message edited by court on January 31, 2012) (Message edited by court on January 31, 2012) | ||
| Geforce |
Engineers of all types will rely heavily on mathematics to solve simple and complex equations. Even in the combat engineering side of the house, we use very detailed calculations to solve for net explosive weight and target density. If you are going the ME route, you will need a firm grasp on mathematics. Once you get to statics and dynamics...  This is one of the primary reasons I had to drop my Engineering degree. I simply could not attend labs and be active duty simultaneously. Fortunately, Business Management is a bit less involved in mathematics but I have already done my fair share of Algebra. Good luck Phillip and stick with it. | ||
| Geforce |
Oh and I forgot to mention the most important aspect of this all... As others have said here, don't let math shake you. It's another form of language and it follows logic and reason. (Most times) Once you begin to understand the intent of a calculation, the little rules always fall into place with time and practice. Don't be afraid to ask for help either. If you get lost there is no shame in requesting some extra help. With algebra, I always asked "Why...?", what is the purpose for this rule, and how does it relate to the equation? I normally don't just accept that something is the way it is mentally, until I can understand how others came to that conclusion. This is often frustrating, but I end up remembering the rule sets very well. We always have at least two Engineers check demo calcs on high risk targets. I've made my fair share of mistakes and caught others. Sometimes it's very gratifying, other times, humbling. | ||
| Stirz007 |
GeF - Field and naval artillery problems led to the development of some of the first computers (vacuum tubes, filled a room). Lots of math in making things hit their target and go boom. | ||
| Court |
Perhaps one of the most accurate statements of the year. I used to ABSOLUTELY make it to each Professors office at least twice a semester. When you are teetering on that "A or B" line (or in my case "D or F" . . . you want to be a PERSON, not a number. | ||
| Bandm |
Three Questions for a Redneck Engineer...  Question # 1??: How much does a house weigh? Question # 2??: How much weight can a rural two-lane bridge hold???    And... Question #3??: WOULD THIS BE COVERED BY HOME INSURANCE, CAR INSURANCE, OR, DOES IT COME UNDER ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE??? | ||
| Court |
Couple screenshots from tonight's class . . . . this is from one of the examples I use about how the SAG is calculated on cross country (heck, on the wires behind your house) transmission lines. But . . . caveat city baby . . . I am a construction worker . . not an engineer!    Learn all the math you can learn . . . it promotes the learning of other things. | ||
| Hootowl |
Open up each end of that mobile home, and voila, fancy covered bridge. When life throws you a curve, aim for the apex. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Mark, right now I'm only in an intermediate algebra class. This is my first semester of college, (I left Active Duty on Jan 3rd, started classes Jan 9th) my other college credit is from my time in the Navy or dual credit taken during high school - none of which was math. My ACT scores (taken after my sophomore year of HS) placed me in college algebra, but I didn't want to jump straight to that level after being out of school for 8 years. After seeing how much I had forgotten, I'm VERY glad I started with the intermediate class. The information is coming back to me quickly, but it would have been too much of a burden to catch up and learn completely new things at the same time. Blake, I'd like to enter the research and development field. Specifically, I want to design engines using alternative fuels. I assume focusing on thermodynamics would be my best course of action? I do realize that unless internal combustion engines change quickly over the next few years, it's unrealistic for me to expect to find a job spending 100% of my time developing non-gasoline technology. My ultimate goal is to work for EBR or Motus developing natural gas/diesel/propane/hydrogen/etc powerplants. I can't count the number of people who have said, "Those sound like pretty exclusive companies, maybe you should strive for something more attainable." Bull. I'll keep striving for exactly what I want, and get the best experience and education I can to prepare me for my dream job. If it doesn't work out, at least I won't have to wonder "what if" for the rest of my life. It's funny you mention the "pretty girls" in class. While picking a lab partner for my chemistry class, I looked for the most responsible person in the room. A well-dressed middle aged man. Turns out, I chose well - he just retired from 16 years in the Army, preceded by 4 in the Navy. Thanks to everyone here for your advice and insight. It's very helpful to know what to expect, and what specifics to focus on. At various times in the past, I would have loved to have some advice from someone "on the inside" before getting there myself. I scoffed at the offer of a nuclear engineering job when I enlisted, thinking that I didn't want to commit to 6 years or take my career that direction. Oops, I ended up staying for 6 years anyway, and I'd have been more challenged and interested by that job than I was with Avionics. Not to mention that the "nuke" training pipeline would have put me ahead of the game when it comes to a lot of the classes that are in my near future. |
