| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
We've got a lot of musicians in here, so hopefully I can get some good feedback... My band is getting ready to start booking some gigs and we're working on the assumption that many places are not going to have a house PA, so we're looking at a setup that we could use to play these smaller places. Bass and guitars would run their own amps, so we'd only use it for vocals and to mic the kick drum to get more meat under it (maybe the snare as well). I already have a good, unpowered mixer. What we're looking for input on is whether to get active speakers, or passive and add an amp to my mixer. If we go passive, I have a DJ friend who is getting rid of some gear and has a QSC PLX2402 amp he can sell me. Seems like all PA speakers are wired for 8ohms, and this amp does 425 watts at that impedance. In a bridged mono mode it's 850 watts. So my questions are... Would that amp be enough power, and if not how much do we need? Are active cabinets just the way to go? What speakers should we go with it? I've heard to stay away from Peavy, but I've also heard a lot of people who really like them, and it seems they're the only "value-priced" brand that has good bass response, something that matters for the kick drum. As always, money matters. We'd just get a pair of FBTs if the $800 price tag were doable. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
I would look at the size of spaces you'll be playing in. Size of crowd. As for using the amps for guitars and not running them through the 'house sound' that's not going to be a good thing. As for brands price etc. I would look really long and really hard at the self powered makies road tough and good blend of sound quality/value. I've been using them for years. Probably what I like the most is they allow for much easier a/c power in bar type places. Not many venues have 100a service available but do have the legally required outlets. You can run into ground phasing issues from time to time that however is easy to deal with in a small rig. If not mackie then another brand that's similarly setup will do. Seriously first things first how big and how many peeps then you can start to size system from there | ||
| Xl1200r |
Who knows on the size of either the crowd or venue, but I'd guess at a small/medium sized bar. We're not looking to fill a gymnasium, banquet hall, or the great outdoors with this stuff... | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Just saying that some bars are bigger than others. You working through an agent or selfbooking? In any case the mackies should do you just fine and are modular by design so expanding is just adding another cab and away you go. They also make matching subs to go with if you want or need. In all seriousness probably an array of four cabs should be just a little more than you 'need' giving you a nice piece of headroom to work with. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Why is having the guitars not play through the house sound a bad thing in a smaller venue? | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
How will you have any control at all? I never ever let a guitar play solo. Just doesn't happen. His amp is tuned a little lower than he wants I get feed from him after his effects and run the sound as an actual mix. There's no way to truly mix the sound if you don't have control of it. Other option if guitar am has no 'out' then the amp gets mic'd and we go from there. In either case the guitars amp is not the primary source of the guitars sound in the house. (Message edited by boogiman1981 on November 28, 2011) | ||
| Spank |
Have you ever thought about hiring a light and sound company? We do that most of the time and it works out to be pretty cost effective. I personally like having someone else do it as I was the one always burdened with the job because that was partially what I went to school for. It sucked having to set up the sound and my own stuff...then have to worry about taking it all down at the end of the night. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Yeahbut... No one will have control of it after we setup and start playing. There isn't going to be a "sound guy". Too poor. Hiring a light and sound company would be great expect I'd expect their rates would be more than we'd get paid for the night. Looks like we need to rethink this whole thing... | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Call around you might be surprised. Another thought is to hire a college kid or similar to run your gear while you play. Also see if the local music shop knows of a ready to go rig that someone has outgrown or another band that's broken up. Craigslist etc Can be a good resource. The initial outlay for a rig worth listening to isn't going to be cheap. | ||
| Spank |
Yeah, we bought our own stuff from a girl that was selling it on her now ex-boyfriend for pretty cheap. There was a TV of his there and she asked if we wanted that too..we said no...she threw it in the dumpster. There is a good story there! LOL We just use it for practice now. We usually break even when we hire out. I would never pay to play unless there was good reason to. Some of the more hole in the wall places we used to play, we would bring our stuff then cause they would only usually pay us in beer. | ||
| Xl1200r |
The initial outlay for a rig worth listening to isn't going to be cheap. This is what it's coming down to. Here's the gear we have: 200(?) watt 4-channel powered mixer w/effects 2 small PA speakers (maybe 8"?) **the above two are our practice PA, running vocals only, and is over stressed as it sits. Sondcraft 8-channel mixer w/effects That's all of it. We're playing a basement houseparty gig next weekend, but we think we can utilize the DJs system for PA. But, after that, we're on our own. Collectively, the band can afford about $800-1000 in additional gear. The small powered mixer we have will never provide enough oomph for anything but my makeshift practice studio. If we start micing all of the guitars as well, my mixer is no longer capable of running everything unless I don't mic my whole drum set. Then to unburden the mains, to add a sub means another amp plus a crossover... just gets daunting. So, with a MAX of $1000... what would you buy to start out? | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Layaway? Wow. Um ebay friends craigslist classifieds at music stores network your ass off. 1000 isn't going to get you far. However and I cannot stress this enough do not buy crap gear to 'get by' with it's a waste of your capital. Lemme break out the laptop and get into this. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
http://goo.gl/3KcSo that's new stuff and really not too far out of budget. for a grand plus shipping you've got 2 12" powered main cabs and a 14 channel mixer. plus shipping and cables. doubt you're more than 1300. another brand suggestion would be the JBL EON's also have had plenty of actual hands on with them and they'd do you well too. mackies are better to my ear but if you can get a better deal on the EON's nothing wrong there.. http://goo.gl/v5SJt http://goo.gl/3Xnhv http://goo.gl/7wbz1 quick google results | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
no offense but the list you posted is honestly basically paperweight material. I've never heard a soundcraft i liked. powered or passive and i would never use a powered console. way way way to many compromises in those. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
All good ideas. Hook up with other bands that already have PA systems and become friends and open up for them a few times. Help them with their gear. Do this with 6-8 other similar bands. My back hurts just thinking about moving any gear. | ||
| Fahren |
We've got a lot of musicians in here, so hopefully I can get some good feedback... Just wondering, asking about PA systems, did you intend the pun? | ||
| Court |
Lots of folks with LOTS more knowledge than I have here . . . But . . . I'm fond of the Mackie powered speakers and monitors. I've looked at many things and always end up with a Mackie mixer (cheap and reliable). If I were working with a $1,000 constraint . . . I'd here to CARVIN Not the top of the line but it's USA made and the service an not be beat. You can buy many better systems, but the Carvin wold meet your $1,000 AND your performance requirements. The good news is that mics still, even after all these years, remain CHEAP. I've yet to find anyone who doesn't have a handful of SM58 and SM57 in their stash . . . on sale, full price . . whatever . . . always $99.  By the way . . . I'm still pissed I sold all my old EV-664's Now go make a record and when you come back ready to spent $200,000 on a system I have something I want to show you By the way . . . Joe (Ratbuell) is quite fluent in these things . . make sure to touch base with him if he doesn't chime in. | ||
| S1owner |
Being a veteran musician and a music degree holder I would suggest hiring it out find someone you can work with on a consistent basis. It will be vary hard to run sound lights and entertain the crowd. You will never get a well mixed sound running guitar amps and then a pa it will not blend. Here's what we ran bass thru a direct box sound man had total control, guitars thru boogie and marshals miked drums triggered and miked depending on drum full lights 18,000 watts to the low end and 22,000 to the uppers that was for the small bars say 1500 people. Non of this is a joke played 1st ave main room at the age of 14 toured Europe at 17 | ||
| Xl1200r |
small bar = 1500 people  | ||
| S1owner |
Yep college bars packed door to door 1000-1500 capacity you could walk across heads to get to the bar! Hence the reason I hate crowds now! | ||
| S1owner |
If you were not so damn far away I could possibly help you out! NY played CBGB back in 89 | ||
| Ratbuell |
hopefully I can get some good feedback... um...."feedback", eh? OK. Moving on. Used to run a 1200 seat vaudeville house (roadhouse, 10 years as Tech Director, 350 performances a year), and have to say I agree with some of the points above. It comes down to "how good do you want to sound?". Loud does NOT equal good. Even in a bar. Never let a single artist run straight to the house mix. Guitarists always get full of themselves and excited in the gig, and turn 'em up to eleven like they're soloing at Wembley. Anyone not run through the desk, you can't control. Small venues, the last thing you'll need in a snare is a mic. Maybe a pillow, but not a mic. If you mic one drum...mic the whole kit. If you don't, you'll have holes. Guaranteed. You may not turn some of them up much...but you'll notice if they're not there. I'm a believer in powered speakers. They're lighter than the sum total of "speakers plus amp" and the only hardship during setup is you have to run signal plus power to them. I have a set of old Peavey's - 12", 2 way, 450w, 1/4 and XLR in/out (chainable). I've run parties off 'em with no more than a single patch cable, a power cord, and an iPod; I work with a band who uses them as the "best monitor wedges we've ever used!". I've knocked them off trucks. I've had them fall off moving trucks. They've ingested nearly as much beer as I have. And they refuse to die. If you want to reproduce the subtle tones of a full-grand Steinway...probably not the choice I'd make. Peavey isn't known for accuracy so much as volume..but with the right EQ, they sound pretty darned good. Great monitor wedges and I've used em as FOH speakers in a pinch (when a QSC PowerLight took a dump). My Mackie desks also refuse to die. Got a pair of 1604VLZ mixers that refuse to CRACKLE, and I haven't dusted the one on my living room surround sound in...oh...2 years? Clean sound, great s/n ratio, good crossover points, easy interface, great flexibility (16 in, l/r mains, 4 sub-outs, 4 aux sends, sweepable mids, switchable outputs by channel - the only "dislike" I have is, they have global phantom power and not channel-based), rack-mountable, super-portable, and again - just about bomb-proof. If I was getting the band back together... 1. Peavey powered monitor wedges. Figure at the LEAST, 2 stage mixes for a bar band. Feed vocals to the rhythm section (drums, bass, keys if you got 'em) and feed rhythm to the leads (guitars, keys, and anyone who sings). That way everyone can hear what the "other guy" is doing, and keep time. 2. JBL front of house speakers. They also make great powered speakers, quite a bit more accurate than the Peavey's but just as bulletproof. Not nearly as pricey as, say, TurboSound...but excellent quality gear. 3. Non-powered sub. If you're gonna mic the kick...you need a sub. If you have a bass...you need a sub. If you have a keys player, you need a sub. Period. Bridged amp, 20hz capable, good wattage, and a frequency cap that blends with the bottom of the powered speakers so you don't have a hole. 4. limiter/gate. Enough channels for every single input. 5. FOH EQ, to tune for the room. 6. FOH crossover, so you only feed frequencies to the speakers that can handle them. 7. Power conditioner, because you just can't trust bars to feed your expensive gear clean power. 8. One or two good mix desks. If you go small, you can use one for FOH, and a second for monitors...or if you're only using 2 stage mixes you can usually get away with something like my 1604s and just use Aux sends to run your stage mixes. Just learn the difference between "pre-fade" and "post-fade" 9. Mics. I like the Shure Beta58 for vocals. Standard SM58 for instrument amps (bass, guitar, keys). SM57 for drums. Green bomber (forget the number) if you have a harp. Have one for EVERY noisemaker - voice, instrument, drum head, cymbal. If it makes noise, you need to control it. If you don't, your crowd will leave. You're looking at a quite a few grand in equipment. Upside? You book a gig. You sound great. And that lands you MORE gigs. And the gear pays for itself fairly quickly. Oh, and if you don't have a guy who "knows sound"....get one, even if he/she just teaches one person in the band how all the stuff works. | ||
| S1owner |
Hey sorry guys was not meaning any offense rat I agree with 99 % especially the never let one person ska guitar players go straight I used to battle just to here myself onstage learned from a wise sound man I actually stopped using a amp just went direct he took care of everything else and put me thru the monitors. I think the level you guys are at a small mixer with powered speakers throw two mics up to get the just of the drums crank the rest put vocals thru the pa it's a party as you start playing out most places have in house systems until you get to larger venues. Its not going to be the best but that's ok make an effort work the bugs out before you play most people wait and it drives the crowd away! | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
man the memories this thread is bringing back.... i used a pair pf peavies once in a portable system... they have handles on the sides. doesn't mean they were meant to be moved every week. i would agree they are nearly bomb proof. but oh how they were heavy. used a pair of yamaha wedges for monitors those were also heavy but had good enough SQ for the people that were listening to them. i think the idea of opening for others is a very good one. use their rig see what works and what doesn't. set it and let it fly will not work if you want repeat audience. if we were closer.... | ||
| Xl1200r |
Well, it looks like we have some options. Like I said, I have a couple of DJ friends who said they would run sound for us - now, I know that DJing and live sound are nowhere near the same, but there are a few concepts in common and these guys are sharp - for our needs, they'll do fine. The major up side? They both have top of the line gear (speakers and amps), all we'll need to provide is a mixer and any other rack gear. What I'm sort of thinking is I'll have my guitarist pick a pair of powered speakers (those Carvin units look pretty and affordable) for when we don't have any other choice. I'll invest in a new mixer to get more channels and add a 31-channel EQ or two to start, maybe add a noise gate. How do you add compression if a mixer doesn't have it built in already? | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
via 'insert' usually a trs 1/4" plug that goes to two ts 1/4" plugs. common ground with an out and a return. if you get the mackie vlz series console they will have that available on most of the channels as well as your mains. read books and follow which is which as far as tip ring and sleeve; ground out and return. i highly recommend reading the yamaha sound book http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook -Gary-Davis/dp/0881889008 worth its weight in platinum (Message edited by boogiman1981 on November 30, 2011) | ||
| Xl1200r |
What should get compression? Vocals and kick drum? I'd imagine a noise gate on the guitars and MAYBE the snare, depending on the player... | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Another thought and I hesitate to think this outloud would be to go the cyber route. M-audio has some nicer stuff IF!!!! You have the computer with the horsepower needed. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
mains for now due to budget. each source you want compressed or gated requires a device or channel within device. there are those out there that have multiple channels but you pay$$ for that | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
remember the point of a limiting device like a compressor/gate is to avoid distortion induced via clipping. |
