| Author | Message | ||
     Xb984r |
By the way . . take a close look at what EBR did last year and see if ANY manufacture has ever finished in the top 10 in every race they ran their first season with no DNF. EBR did not finish in the top 10 every race. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Daytona, Infineon and Road America. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
However, that does not diminish their accomplishments. I think the arguments here on who "invented" this and who's "stealing" ideas from that are pointless and rather childish. There are, at this point, only so many things you can do with/to a motorcycle and using similar technology is commonplace. Unless EBR comes out with a desmo engine or Ducati starts using a Rotax supplied 1125 engine they modify this copycat discussion is waste of time. Cripes all mighty, most of us will never ride or own either bike. Both of which I'd be proud to own. | ||
| Court |
>>>>He was the first to implement them on mass produced championship winning sport bikes. Like the perimeter rim brake . . . No one . . . and we revisit this every year since 1995 . . . is claiming Erik "invented" it. Although he does hold patents that were powerful enough to back off Honda Motor Company of Japan on the muffler. Pretty amazing stuff quite frankly. As many of you know . . . I've had a pretty good relationship with Ducati over the years and I think this bike is ultra cool. It's also going to bring a lot of attention to the EBR products. Neat to see this bike in the hunt . . . . now . . let's see it race. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Ducati starts using a Rotax supplied 1125 engine That . . . by the way . . . won't happen. Aprilia would love to get their mitts on some of the stuff in the 1125 motor. There is a 10 year moratorium on an transfer of technology. | ||
| Xb984r |
Since Aprilia makes their own engines now, the transfer of technology from the Rotax engine to the Aprilia engine wouldn't work. Looking at the results of Aprilia in WSB just what from the 1190 would they like? (Message edited by xb984r on November 14, 2011) | ||
| Swampy |
As brought up on page one, try getting parts.....I'm married to an Italian chick, talk about difficult communications....what is important to me is not on the radar for her. It is sort of like living in the U.P. It is a whole different country you're talk'in 'bout. Light years apart. I'm just saying, I still am crazy about the Buell frames, they are just so far ahead of anything else, so innovative, so planted... | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
court, what championship did higbee win? "Do we want to count the various ass kickings that Shawn has dealt out at Willow Springs? " | ||
| Court |
>>>court, what championship did higbee win? Steve and the fellows who race at Willow Springs could give you details. If I recall correctly Shawn still holds the track lap time record on a Buell as well. This is from a thread that I posted about the neighbors cars . . .
I can't speak to the accuracy . . .Steve or some of the racers could. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/608805.html?1292880926 | ||
| Court |
>>>>Since Aprilia makes their own engines now, the transfer of technology from the Rotax engine to the Aprilia engine wouldn't work. -----> Correct and that may ONLY build what they own in terms of engineering. >>>>Looking at the results of Aprilia in WSB just what from the 1190 would they like? -----> I think two things but that's just my PERSONAL opinion from being in the motorcycle business. You can look at the designs and come to your own conclusions. | ||
| Trojan |
Aprilia would love to get their mitts on some of the stuff in the 1125 motor. Your dead right, the Aprilia V4 is obviously a terrible motor that they can't wait to get rid of....oh hang on..they won the WSb championship with it and various teams will use it in MotoGP CRT chassis next year. Must be pretty useless then.... Braking were supplying rim mounted brake discs/calipers to Ten Kate and other teams back in the late 1990's to use on WSB/WSS bikes (also used in 125GP). There was even a version for the Buell S1/M2 available and they were standard fitment on some Ghezzi & Brian MotoGuzzi based sports bikes (one of which raced in the US). Most teams tried them and went back to what they knew and preferred. I'm not saying that the EBR system doesn't work, but it was certainly NOT the first rim mounted disc in racing. (Message edited by trojan on November 15, 2011) | ||
| Court |
>>>Must be pretty useless then.... Actually, you are wrong on this one . . it's an amazing motor and an amazing bike. Buell, admittedly, had the benefit of having the "the few things we'd change if we could" conversations during the 16 months the design team spent in Austria. Nothing I've said is meant to disparage or belittle any of these bikes. I'm a big fan of all of them. But . . inferring that the Ducati is one better better than the 1190RS is laughable. | ||
| Trojan |
But . . inferring that the Ducati is one better better than the 1190RS is laughable I'm not saying it is better as I haven't seen either in action yet (nor have you seen the Panigale I suspect). What I am saying is that people here are very quick to try and claim that Buell invented everything when in fact a lot of these 'inventions' have been around in some form or another for many years. Want fuel in frame? ...Norton Monocoque 1973 Rim discs.....Braking 1994 Offset shock....many many frame designs Spondon, Harris, Fior, Kawasaki etc etc etc Powerful V-Twin motor....Vincent, Britten, Ducati, Aprilia, Honda etc Both the Panigale and the EBR1190 are much better bikes than I or most of the people reading this could ever use. The Ducati is however almost half the price of the 1190 and there is a dealer in every major town with spares backup and warranty facilities...........Even if they were equal in every other respect that is something that many people will have to consider, especially outside the USA. | ||
| Court |
>>>>The Ducati is however almost half the price of the 1190 Good. Let's take that logic and make and inferential extrapolation . . . the Buell, using a bit of your Boolean logic, is there for 1.9 times as good as the Desomodecci? Easy to see why many see these conversations as entertainment rather than information. | ||
| Trojan |
Let's take that logic and make and inferential extrapolation . . . the Buell, using a bit of your Boolean logic, is there for 1.9 times as good as the Desomodecci? Being cheaper or more expensive does not necessarily make a product better or worse. The Desmoseddici actually makes a terrible evryday road bike and is too loud for most Uk trackdays, so is an expensive ornament in most cases (how many have you seen on the road..I've seen one in 4 years). However price, dealer access and reliability is a major factor in many customers buying decision and one that is ignored at the manufacturers peril. I know that EBR is going to produce more 'affordable' versions of the 1190 but until we have comparitive pricing against the Panigale we could be talking about a different market or customer entirely. Also until we know who is gong to sell and service the 1190 outside the US it may be that the 1190 is not seen as the sensible option for regular road riders here, and that access to dealerships is the deal maker/breaker regardless of how good the two bikes are. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, >>> people here are very quick to try and claim that Buell invented everything Care to make that into an honest characterization? As it stands, it's anything but. Ducati has followed Buell's lead in Sport bike innovation, as have many serious sport bike manufacturers. From inverted forks, to underslung mufflers, to offset shock mounting on a competition superbike repli-racer, Buell has been a leading implementor of innovation. Tough for some to accept for some odd reason. I'll never understand it. Care to discus the difference between a mere rim- mounted brake disk and the championship winning Buell or EBR front wheel/brake system? Seems to me Matt that the converse of your false characterization is true, that no matter what, some refuse to acknowledge any of the innovation and invention that Buell has brought to the commercial sport bike market. | ||
| Trojan |
Ducati has followed Buell's lead in Sport bike innovation, as have many serious sport bike manufacturers. From inverted forks, to underslung mufflers, to offset shock mounting on a competition superbike repli-racer, Buell has been a leading implementor of innovation. Blake, I give up. The earth is flat and dinosaurs never existed. Ducati/Honda/Yamaha/Triumph etc obviously have Erik to thank for their very existence and Norton/Vincent/MV are just a figment of my imagination. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
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| Hybridmomentspass |
track records dont equal championships why did Buell put the shock offset on the 1125r/cr? What was the performance gain from doing that over having it in the center? Cause if no performance gain, and only packaging detaials then we can wrap this whole 'ducati copying buell' thing real quick | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Gimme a Tricolore please.  | ||
| Chauly |
She's monochrome...  | ||
| Blake |
>>> Ducati/Honda/Yamaha/Triumph etc obviously have Erik to thank for their very existence Not at all. What is true is that if they follow the lead of Buell in implementing some sport bike innovations, then they may very well have Erik and associates to thank for paving the way. See one observation is thoughtful, the other a wild exaggeration. Why does it cause some such pain to recognize Buell's very real and significant innovative contributions to the sport bike market? >>> and Norton/Vincent/MV are just a figment of my imagination. No idea why that would be. You didn't answer my question about the brake.  HMP, The rear shock on both Buell's and Ducati's case is achieve better chassis geometry overall combined with good rear suspension geometry. It allows a shorter wheelbase and tighter integration while retaining excellent rear suspension geometry. Better "packaging" (not the word I'd use), meaning better overall chassis design integration, meaning lighter, more compact (mass centralization) etc. also means improved performance. That said, I fail to see why the purpose would have any bearing on whether Ducati was influenced in their design by the 1125 rear shock. They may have taken note when Jason Disalvo was reporting how amazing the bike drove out of the turns and thought, "hey, that offset shock may not be so crazy on a superbike after all." | ||
| Blake |
Curtis (Notpurples2}, Whether one is right or wrong or somewhere in between, thoughtful argument can lead to education on both sides. What I find interesting is how some apparently derive satisfaction from posting off-topic personal commentary. If you try, I think you'll find other pursuits that are much more satisfying and in a much more meaningful way, reading carefully and engaging in thoughtful discussion concerning the topic for instance. Don't be threatened by disagreement. Have fun and enjoy thoughtful debate. It's a good way to learn. I've certainly learned a bunch from those here who I've disagreed with. | ||
| Guell |
If ducati was working on this in 2007, then I don't think they took cues on the shock from buell. Is it neat that they both have it, sure. But I doubt ducati studied and used an offset shock because of buell. | ||
| Reepicheep |
\quote {Braking were supplying rim mounted brake discs/calipers to Ten Kate and other teams back in the late 1990's to use on WSB/WSS bikes (also used in 125GP). There was even a version for the Buell S1/M2 available and they were standard fitment on some Ghezzi & Brian MotoGuzzi based sports bikes (one of which raced in the US). } They were solving the wrong problem badly. The value of perimeter rotors is that it enables the creation of lighter wheels. Who did that on a bike before Buell? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"If ducati was working on this in 2007, then I don't think they took cues on the shock from buell. Is it neat that they both have it, sure. But I doubt ducati studied and used an offset shock because of buell." Why can't a bike just be a good bike without people giving credit to the mfg who built it? Mfg's borrow concepts/designs from one another, big surprise. Who cares? Some of you guys seem to be hoping that when Ducati comes out with a new whip they say.."And finally, Ducati would like to thank Buell for his contribution to this bike". The first Motorcycle had a motor and wheels. From that day forward, mfg after mfg has "borrowed" that concept. Neither was Buell or Ducati. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I feel like I've got on the wrong train. | ||
| Bads1 |
Me I'm more excited to see who will do better. The KTM or the EBR. The Duc will be raced. You'll see it in WSB as a non factory sponsored team. But they have said they will return and on this bike. But till then..... let the war begin against to Wisconsin based teams EBR and HMC. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Mr. Grumpy....here is the train this thread is on >>>>> And it also happens to be my favourite pre ride song.  | ||
| Court |
>>>Not at all. Well. . . kinda. There is one on that list that you could include in the population that could thank Erik Buell for a most innovative product. After all . . the HD lawyer was leaning on it (covered up) when he visited Buell in 1992. Funny how history repeated itself in January 2010. |
