| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
I think I was recently called on the carpet for making comparisons with Nazi Germany. Odd how similar the message has become:   | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Wow... so the 4-5 girls about 2-3 feet BACK from the orange fence SURROUNDED by about 20-30 uniformed cops DESERVED to get sprayed? That #$%^&* cop had to lean OVER and through two other cops just to get a shot at the girls with his spray! Yea I'm sure some of them aren't perfect and are antagonizing the cops but that doesn't warrant police violence. The antisemitic issue was addressed with one of my links, that's a BS diversion by the media. They held Yom Kippur (SP?) ceremonies AT THE DEMONSTRATION! DUH! HELLO!! And don't forget the POINT, how many of you on this board RIGHT NOW have been affected by the collapse? Everybody obviously because that's the excuse HD used to shut Buell down... How many had 401ks lose value? How many lost jobs? If you have please speak up... These protesters are out there for US, if you don't have $1M+ in the bank you ARE the 99% so figure it out. If you're against the protesters you're buying the media garbage. AND THE LOCAL NEW YORKERS SUPPORT THEM GREATLY! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEu4lMAlwM Take a tour if you think they're a bunch of bums; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1WepAc6IuM&feature =relmfu | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You aren't hearing the message. What the OWS folks want is to guarantee that none of us will EVER get $1M+ in the bank, will never have a 401k, will not have the capacity to buy a Buell or any other motorcycle. It's all or none. They want to destroy the system. Completely. There is no plan B. There is no alternate working model. Wall Street isn't the enemy. Private enterprise isn't the enemy. They ARE a bunch of bums. The local New Yorkers elected Obama. | ||
| Whatever |
Some people seem to think that life is fair. It isn't. Most ordinary humans strive to make life fair, but conflicts inevitably arise. Sometimes the only right thing to do will be terribly unfair to some, yet is best for the whole. There will always be situations that to an individual will seem unfair. Philosophers have struggled with this issue for many thousands of years. The ultimate conclusion? Life is unfair, get over it. +1 Jim I have lost count of how many times I have had to start my life over because of a layoff or getting sick... maybe 5 times, no, make that 6. I even got to the point in summer of 2008 where I HAD a 401(k)... for the first time in my life. Then I got laid off. If I sat around and thought about all the bad crap in my life I would probably be completely useless. I prefer to say "NOW WHAT?" and to hope for the best. I am eating a lot of rice... but it is much better than not eating at all... | ||
| Jb2 |
+1 Ft_bstrd | ||
| Thumper74 |
I don't think anyone is arguing that these people are doing it for the 99%, but that they are naive and misguided. I'm going to college for electrical engineering, in my late twenties, with a wife, kid, house, etc. However, I am also employed and my employer is expanding continuously. Hell, I was offered a job this week in Florida at a decent raise from what I am making now. I'm blessed that I have not been unemployed for more than a month and a half in twelve years, which was in early 2006. I was willing to change oil, bust tires, catch sheet metal off of a press at a GM factory, make tacos, sell car parts, sell 'novelties', deliver newspapers, etc. I never felt that I was ever owed anything by anyone. I worked two and three jobs (auto tech from 7am to 3pm, NAPA from 3:30 to 9pm, and weekends at where ever was hiring) at a time to pay my bills. If I couldn't afford something, I did without something else. If I couldn't do without, I worked more. Some people are still indoctrinated with the work one job for life with full benefits and the sad reality is that it's not to be expected anymore. Some people are just not employable. Here is the reality kids: I have a new car, a motorcycle, a house, a smartphone, cable TV, PS3, WII, three laptops, an aging desktop, a 32" LCD, a 42" plasma, a washer and a drier, a nice new fridge and dishwasher, a garage fridge, etc. To get there, I drove •••••• cars, 30-40 year old motor scooters, worked 6 months at a time without a day off, my snowblower is 30 years old, my house is small, but reasonable. I did it all on my own, working at LEAST two jobs at a time from highschool until two-ish years ago. No one owes me shit. No one owes you shit. | ||
| Reindog |
You have said all I need to know about you. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The problem is that there will always be things in life that are "unfair". The goal isn't to make life fair but to operate a system that has the least amount of unfairness within it. Capitalism provides the greatest opportunity for personal advancement and prosperity. The problem is that capitalism doesn't reward lack of ambition, lack of work ethic, or lack of skills and abilities. If you are lazy and lack marketable skills, capitalism is going to be a tough system for you. Socialism doesn't take into account either work ethic or skill set. It guarantees outcome regardless of effort. Given the option between doing nothing to achieve and doing the hard to work to achieve, human nature dictates doing the absolute least work possible. Don't believe me? If you were going to get paid $xx,xxx whether you worked 40 hours per week or 80 hours per week, the door would be hitting you in the ass at 40 hours and one second. Now there are a few who will work a little extra "off the clock", but that condition won't go on as a permanent state. It's only if you believe that the extra effort increases your chances for advancement or increases you probability of success that you'd do it. Socialism removes the upward mobility component. You can't advance (or it's MUCH harder to do so) because there are far fewer opportunities. What the OWS folks are advocating is a system in which their level of skill, work ethic and education (which is very low) is rewarded with all the benefits of hard work, skill, and intellectual ability. It simply doesn't work. | ||
| Court |
Ditto Goodbye credibility. The unbright and ill informed gather like iron filings on a magnet. | ||
| Sifo |
So given that the statement read by Keith Olberman (provided by SDave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OCo_LsinE) is nothing but an anti-capitalism rant I think it's safe to say that they don't want free market capitalism. The question remains, what do they want? I'd like to challenge the supporters of the OWS movement to state what they want. The US has always been a free market capitalism system, so it's safe to say that they want to fundamentally change the US to abandon it's constitution. I know the label that I would put on this movement, but I'd like to hear it from the supporters. Who actually has the balls to come out and state in simple term what you want.  | ||
| Reindog |
It is way past time for Americans to do the jobs "that Americans refuse to do". This provides the motivation to work to educate yourself so that some other American will do the jobs "that Americans refuse to do". The unemployed in the Great Depression would have killed to do the jobs that current day Americans "refuse to do". "Doing the jobs that Americans refuse to do."This has been the mantra to justify illegal immigration and has never made sense to me. | ||
| Sifo |
Jobs that Americans refuse to do! That's a sickening phrase. How did we get to where that is a common phrase? It was never uttered when we were on the upswing. | ||
| Reindog |
Man, some Bill Whittle is what this thread needs about now. Especially the one about Elitism as this is exactly what the OWS folks believe in. Different note. I am watching "The Today Show" and I notice it is schvitzzing in NYC. Its gonna be fun when the weather turns on the OWS crew. I guess the upside is that OWSgirls will definitely be getting in snuggle mode! NYC will be getting nasty soon. Occupy Nice Warm Rooms. Personally, I would rather be sipping vodka martinis at Mickey Mantles on Central Park South occupying the best seat in the bar. (Message edited by reindog on October 19, 2011) | ||
| Superdavetfft |
That video from Olberman was CLEAR and CONCISE... They want this; Congress to represent the people and not be controlled by banks & corporations via unofficial obligations due to campaign contributions. Simple enough? Oh Reindog, that's all I need to know about you as well I suppose. If you would find the behavior of those cops acceptable, if you would think it proper to MACE WOMEN WHO ARE OUTNUMBERED about 8-1 in that clip and are doing NOTHING but standing on a sidewalk... ...then you're no better than the $%^&*()ing cops involved. What if your mom, wife, sister, cousin was there and got smacked in the face like some of those other videos? Would you think your mom 'deserved it'? Listen to the people, they are real normal people, they are sick of BS government and want change. | ||
| Sifo |
They want this; Congress to represent the people and not be controlled by banks & corporations via unofficial obligations due to campaign contributions. Simple enough? No. That doesn't fit at all with the anti-capitalism rant as read by Olberman. What you describe isn't anti-capitalism, it's simply changing government so that politicians can't take corporate money. Of course that, according to the Supreme Court would be unconstitutional. I agree that is a small piece of what they want, but a very small piece. I guess the biggest supporter we have of OWS doesn't have the balls to put a label on what they want. Anyone? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
They want this; Congress to represent the people and not be controlled by banks & corporations via unofficial obligations due to campaign contributions. Simple enough? No it's worse than that. They want the Federal Government to act as confiscator of private property. "Representing" the people doesn't mean listening to the loud, lazy citizens to take from some and give to others. The larger government becomes, the more special interests will have sway. The OWS folks simply want to change which special interests have sway to to remove the impact special interests have on government. If the Federal government were restricted to the 18 enumerated powers, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. TARP was an abrogation of the limitations of the Constitution. So was CRA. So was Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, etc. If you want business out of government, get government out of business. You can't expect the Federal government to be the largest player in an economic system and expect it not to pick winners and losers. By doing so, the "little guy" is robbed of the free market opportunity to succeed. | ||
| Reindog |
You might consider getting your emotions under control as well as rereading the Badweb rules about personal attacks. You seem to have unresolved anger issues. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Isn't this protest costing NYC huge amounts of money? (how much??) I guess maybe there won't be a budget come summer for the trash... will there even be enough for snow removal this winter? As much as they try, these protesters are NOT helping anything. And may change something like... some new laws about protesting to be written. | ||
| Fahren |
Sifo, free market capitalism is great. Too bad we don't have it here in this country any more. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/10/capitalism- socialism-or-fascism.html It's incredibly convenient for those who gain through fraud and rigging the markets to have many fiercely independent-feeling, proud, patriotic American citizens spout about self-reliance. That way, any failure or downturn is your own damned fault, not in any way due to illegal and unethical acts on a daily basis by TBTF I'm all for self-reliance, too. But not when the system is rigged to extract a maximum of wealth for a very, very few, at the expense of others. There's no fairness in fraud. "Liars suck," I believe the phrase is. | ||
| Sifo |
Fahren, I agree that we have too much socialism and fascism in our country. I would like to see it swing far closer to a free market system. That certainly isn't what was described by Olberman that supposedly was the voice of the OWS group. If anything they are leaning more toward socialism, fascism or communism. I'm just trying to see if any supporters of this group has the balls to clearly state where they want to see it headed. It would be helpful if they could proudly stand up and say we are in favor of "________". Perhaps they just aren't up to the task of articulating their desires. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It's too bad the main party to the fraud is the very Federal government currently being petitioned by the OWS. Cause of grievance as well as savior? Sounds like a very poor recipe to me. ENRON "rigged" the market, cooked the books, and investors paid the price. The overall impact was minimal. The recovery swift. The repercussions profound (immediate termination of one of the big five accounting firms). What do you do when the central party to fraud IS the Federal government?   | ||
| Pwnzor |
Thumper74 is an example of what's good in this country. The OWS crowd, on the whole, is an example of what's bad. I salute people who are willing to do what it takes to get ahead without hurting those around them... I also came from below, pulled myself up from adverse circumstances, and now stand shoulder to shoulder with many who have college degrees. I spent 2007 in prison. Lost my business, drained all my savings paying lawyers, and basically turned my entire life into a big mess. I accepted responsibility for my actions, and now I have a 401k, a huge house that is less than 10 years old, big screen TVs, a $3000 refrigerator with two ice makers and I sit on a $5000 sofa while I watch movies and look at the trees of north Georgia through my living room window. Life is good. It is what I made it. People getting "beat up by $&^%&*$ cops" get exactly what they ask for. Somehow, during my felony arrest and subsequent siezure of my arsenal of weapons from my home, managed to NOT get my ass kicked by the cops. How on earth did I accomplish that? edit: forgot to mention that I have ZERO debt, other than the house note. (Message edited by pwnzor on October 19, 2011) | ||
| Hootowl |
"Hootowl are you kidding me? 'professional protesters'???" Nope. More than half of those folks are not at their first rodeo. They're protesters. They protest. It's what they do. | ||
| Whatever |
Pwnzr, convicted felons in North Carolina can not vote while they are on paper... do you find this offensive, as I do? The gun thing makes a little bit of sense... but to take away the right to vote? WTF? Is this a State thing that the Feds ruled is constitutional? What the heck? | ||
| Sifo |
Is this a State thing that the Feds ruled is constitutional? What the heck? Yep, each state runs it's elections. | ||
| Sifo |
It's too bad the main party to the fraud is the very Federal government currently being petitioned by the OWS. Yep, I've addressed this in more detail over in the Ummmm.....helloooooo..... thread. No need to drag that into this thread too. | ||
| Sifo |
BTW, once the government gets out of the way of a recovery I thing Thumper74 will find himself doing quite well.  Those currently attending the Flea Party will probably not. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Don't agree with the gun thing for nonviolent felons... Thanks for the kind works Pwnzer. I also rescue aminals, lead a Boy Scout pack (will be spending the weekend at a gunshow selling popcorn in Berea, OH), help my elderly neighbors with yard work/snow removal, car repairs, etc. I'm far from perfect, but try to live up to my dad's example and be the person my dogs think I am, but better than my cats treat me. Instead of protesting, these people should do something in their community "Be the change you want to see in the world" ... still waiting for the release of my next motorcycle that's not made from Unobtanium. (Message edited by Thumper74 on October 19, 2011) | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Here look at the people, do they LOOK 'professional'?? http://www.youtube.com/thetopvlog Even if they were 'professionals' who's paying them? This kind of statement is just absurd. Yes there are loons in every crowd, there are some there but look at them, the vast majority of them are just folks who are tired of this BS gov't. And BTW your fed DOES control your states, through road funding and other pork projects. The individual states can't do anything against the fed of they lose funding. Oh and hootowl I'd like to become a professional protester and since you KNOW they are you must know how I could become one so please let me know where to fill out an application for that job. Also, what does it pay? Any benefits? Oh one more; " They want the Federal Government to act as confiscator of private property. "Representing" the people doesn't mean listening to the loud, lazy citizens to take from some and give to others. " PROVE THIS! A second ago folks were harping their demands were not itemized in detail and now YOU claim to know. So go on, prove it... Wow... I can't believe you would think those cops acted properly. Did you see the video? Did you see that $%^& reach over, spray them and run like a little coward? | ||
| Superdavetfft |
Let me attempt to simplify this one more time... Our war for Independence from England was based on taxation without representation. This protest is an effort to regain control of OUR REPRESENTATIVES by eliminating (by new laws) campaign funding from corporations. If this occurred then the representatives would work for the VOTER and not the corporate DONOR... DO YOU GET IT NOW?? IT IS THAT SIMPLE.... |
