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Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 07:27 pm: | 
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Ft_, that's what's called a Straw man.
You set up an argument just to knock it down. So... from the obvious truth that SOME unions are run by evil men with evil plans for domination and personal power, ( SEIU, a "branch" of the CPUSA and International Communist Party ) you run away from that unsavory fact with a question NO ONE asks and present it as a fact to raise fear against the Enemy. I can provide examples from Barack's speeches if you want to study the tactic, or just read Marx ( Karl, not Chico ) & Alinsky.
Some Unions still do good stuff. Really. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 07:34 pm: |
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Even though I've never been in a union, they did help me pay for college. In the early '80s I was working in a body shop painting cars. The auto workers went on a long drawn out strike and we had more work than we could handle. People with bent up cars were furious because the only shops open had 2-3 months of work in the que. I was young single and trying to put together a plan for college. Forget a 40 hour work week! There was cash to be had for those willing to do the work!
I had a friend working at a local Cadillac dealership at that time. As the strike wore on I remember him complaining at one point that even if the union got everything they were fighting for, he would not make up for the lost wages for over a decade. Rock on! |
Buellifer
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 12:32 am: |
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Quote>>> "I've held many different jobs in various occupations; some were Unionized, some were not. Some of the Unions were really good; some were a joke.
I'd point out some of the good things that I've experienced directly; but on Badweb, I'd be called a troll and a liar, and numerous people would jump to point out the fallacies in my statements.
I really dislike kangaroo courts.
Crusty I agree with you 100%. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 11:01 am: |
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I think unions, especially in our current society, are like a combination of a big corperation and a politican. There are some (and I believe this at my core) which conduct themselves in a manner as the best of both. However, there are many (perhaps not most, but the noise they make far overshadows) which show the worst qualities of a crooked politician and a corrupt corperation. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 11:44 am: |
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Huh. From the title of this thread, I expected it to have much fewer posts.
Here's some good things that unions do. Unlawfully detaining people and cutting brake lines. What a great bunch of folks. These aren't the high paid bosses, these are the rank and file.
http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/sep/08/longshor emen-storm-longview-port-damage-rr/
They are also suspected of damaging rail lines this past Monday in ten different places in a coordinated effort to disrupt rail service in Washington. No proof though.
I get that they're pissed that the company declined to hire union labor. Perhaps the take away should be that their labor isn't worth what they were asking for it. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 12:02 pm: |
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I've got a close friend who works for the phone co. I was heading back to work from lunch one day and rode past him and he flagged me down. He was sitting in his work truck "supervising" pumping water out of a hole!
It turns out that the phone co. wanted to save money by contracting out stuff like pumping water out of a hole. Of course the union objected based on needing qualified people to do this. I also understand that OSHA requires at least two people for work in confined spaces where dangerous gasses can accumulate. OK that makes sense.
So the bottom line is that what a customer of the phone co. has to pay for to have water pumped from a hole consists of two trucks and three people. You pay for a contractor with their truck and one guy to put the pump in the hole, and one guy to be the safety guy and a union guy with his truck to watch them to ensure that quality is maintained. Only then will another crew of at least two union workers come in to do the work in the hole.
The simple fact that adding a whole crew and truck of non-union contractors actually saves them money of the second union person should tell you all you need to know. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 12:15 pm: |
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Featherbedding
It's not a new word |
Strokizator
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 01:41 pm: |
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I get that they're pissed that the company declined to hire union labor.
Wrong. The contractor used union labor but not longshoremen. "The International Longshore and Warehouse Union believes it has the right to work at the facility, but the company has hired a contractor that's staffing a workforce of other union laborers."
So I guess fellow union members aren't brothers after all. I'd be pissed if some jerk busted out the windows in my car. |
Strokizator
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 01:47 pm: |
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Here's a bit of a joke and sorry if offends anybody.
A Caltrans worker (Califonia Hwy construction) calls his supervisor and says "Hey Boss, we're all out here at the jobsite but nobody brought any shovels."
The boss says "I'll throw some shovels into the back of my truck and be there in half an hour."
The caltrans guy asks "What do you want us to do in the meantime?"
Boss replies "Just lean up against each other. I'll be there as soon as I can."
Thank you all. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waiters. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 04:11 pm: |
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>>>>I also understand that OSHA requires at least two people for work in confined spaces
Kind of.
OSHA mandates that THREE ROLES must be filled when entering a permit-required confined space.
These are:
- Entry Supervisor
- Attendant
- Authorized entrant
Sometimes there is some confusion. Folks sometimes think TWO people must enter, which is inaccurate.
In addition, the Entry Supervisor and Attendant roles may be filled by the same (one) person.
In the instant case, the contractor may have been in the space and your buddy may, as required, been filling the Entry Supervisor and/or Attendant roles.
quote:"Entry supervisor" means the person (such as the employer, foreman, or crew chief) responsible for determining if acceptable entry conditions are present at a permit space where entry is planned, for authorizing entry and overseeing entry operations, and for terminating entry as required by this section.
"Attendant" means an individual stationed outside one or more permit spaces who monitors the authorized entrants and who performs all attendant's duties assigned in the employer's permit space program.
"Authorized entrant" means an employee who is authorized by the employer to enter a permit space.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_docum ent?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9797
By the way . . . I've cited 29 CFR §1910 but my particular specialty is 29 CFR §1926 so others may be more up on this.
If you are in the NYC area, this is the topic in my class next Tuesday night in the Engineering Graduate School at Columbia . . . you can come and laugh at me.
Court |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 04:46 pm: |
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And you thought I didn't work . . .
Interesting background on this photo. I took it at the NYPA 500MW CC plant while we were "stick building" (over 300,000mh) the HRSG's. I was walking past on the top HRSG cat walk one day and saw the port hole opening on the end of the vessel. As the group I was with walked past I simply held the Nikon 750 down and snapped a "blind" photo . . no knowing anyone was inside.
I got back to my office . . . hooked the camera up and it scared the hell out of me when I saw the welder inside. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 04:56 pm: |
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Yeah... it's not that it's union, it has to be a particular union. Brotherhood but a very tiny family.
We're a IAM shop. Thought working with another vendor whose labor force was represented by TWU. Talk about a shitstorm!
So we just walked away from even attempting to bid on the work - either with our own overworked IAM folks or with the TWU represented machinists. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 06:54 pm: |
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Have at least 3 unions at my job. Think the world of all of them. Pay dues in one. Actually have a union for part time manager types.
Unions that promote & do crimes should be prosecuted. Same for employers.
Union history in America has a lot of bloody knuckles, on both sides. Including the Army shooting at & even bombing Strikes.
It's not a simplistic thing. Unions, per se, are not evil. Not bad by nature, though I believe unions, like certain faith/political movements are prone to abuse by evil men, more than some other organizations. ( but that's just my experience. It could well be that the Church ladies aux. is the most cut throat breeding ground for cruelty and evil ever. I just missed it. 
A lot of the bitching here is about the observable degradation of society. Every Generation is certain the world's going to hell in a hand basket, and it's these newfangled notions that are ruining it for everyone. And they are right, every time. |
Dennis_c
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 07:42 pm: |
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With out unions in about a year or two you will work more hrs. for less pay. Go back in history you will see that is true. So that means that unions help the non union to. If it didn't you would want to join the union to so you could get better pay and working conditions. |
Strokizator
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 08:06 pm: |
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I don't see it Dennis. How will people work more hours for less pay? Hourly employees who work over 8 hours a day and/or 40 hours a week must be paid at time and a half. Union or no union, it doesn't matter.
I'm in construction and I'm trying to figure out what better working conditions exist for union members. Does the sun not shine as hard on union roofers? Are floors softer for union tile setters? Is a 6" valve lighter when lifted by union guys? Do you not think that non-union employers are just as interested in productivity as their union competition?
There are benefits that can be a part of your union contract but there is also the risk you will price yourself out of a job. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - 11:10 pm: |
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I sit at a desk job for a major non-union Fortune-50 (yes, 50) company. I have friends who have similar-type jobs and are unionized with the state of New York. They have considerably more time in their job than I do, much more experience in the field than I do. I make just as much money and often more with my bonuses. They do get better benefits - the healthcare and retirement plans are Cadillac, and they get more time off than I do - that said, I get more time off than I can use and the healthcare and retirement are likely better than average at my job. Furthermore, I'm able to move within my company at will and apply for other positions and promotions based on my ability and performance and not solely on my seniority as they do, where they have to wait in line behind a number of other people who HAVE to be offered the job first because they've been around longer.
In my area of employment, I don't see the advantage a union provides. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 09:26 am: |
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How will people work more hours for less pay?
I'm seeing it already. Since my last "Permanent" job (as opposed to "Temp" or "Contract" job), I've been Interviewed by several companies who stated that overtime was mandatory (one employer was working a minimum of 58 hours/week. The Dept manager bragged that he gave his crew the previous Saturday off because they were getting stale and their work was getting sloppy)
Most employers are offering 25% less/hr than was the norm a year and a half ago. So, to make the same money, I have to work more hours. If I want my income to match the increase in living expenses, I have to work quite a few more hours. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2011 - 10:08 am: |
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Crusty, the premiss was that without unions that would happen. What union went out of existence to cause that. I'm guessing it's more a matter of employers not wanting to hire new people because of economic unknowns. The safe bet right now is to run lean until you have some confidence in where things are heading in the next 2-3 years. |
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