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Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 06:07 pm: | 
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"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth." |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 06:19 pm: |
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Normally I'm in total agreement with Fatty on politics, but I don't get the Ron Paul hate. What is it about Paul that makes you think he's crazy, Ft? All the videos I've watched in the past seemed like a healthy dose of common sense. Did I miss something?
What part of a nuclear armed Iran ISN'T bat shit crazy?
If Ron Paul had en even remotely reasonable and sane foreign policy, I could support him. I do like many of his economic ideas. The rest of his positions are not indicitive of a person with all their screws firmly affixed. |
Fahren
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 08:34 pm: |
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Blake,
In my few years here, I have seldom seen a more thoughtful, careful, and courteous poster than HBE. He has shown open-mindedness and a willingness to concede a point where you and others have shown little. You are being unreasonable, and, once again, I feel you are entering into the very no-no land of name-calling and other personal stuff that is prohibited under terms of Badweb use. When there is a seemingly un-bridgeable chasm between opposing views, let's agree to let it rest, not to call each other trolls and other, worse insults.
If you think HBE is a troll, you have no idea. Hex was not a troll. Rocket is not a troll. Nor am I, nor is HBE. We, and others, seemingly in the minority here, have very different political views from you. This board would be a lot more civil if we could agree when we just disagree. I think there are many things you are dead wrong about, and I know it is useless to try to convince you of what I see as the error of your thoughts (although I am often willing to engage in discussions over those topics, if things stay civil). And I am sure you feel the same way about me and my views.
Before you go and call someone a troll, please read more carefully the recent civil, polite and open-minded exchange and discussion between Tom and Justin, in which they both agree to some of each other's points, and seriously consider and wonder about others, and see if you think either of these two gentlemen deserve to be called a troll:
HBE:
Sifo: I think you are correct that Paul's international theory does not reflect the world we live in now, but do you think he is wrong that we should work to make it the world we live in? I'm not sure I'm convinced one way or the other.
We've spent a lot of dough overseas. How much of it comes back when 9-11 hits or Katrina hits or when the Tornado rips up a region? Maybe it is a heartless thing to say,but there was a time when we left home only when we thought there was a direct threat to us. Now, we do it when others are threatened. Maybe we will be able to afford to be the world police again someday, but today isn't that day. I wonder if we'd all be better off returning to an isolationist theory of foreign policy.
Sifo:
I don't think Ron Paul would have been in favor of defeating Hitler in WWII. He makes some very good points, but he is extremist in his views. Unrealistically extremist.
Maybe it is a heartless thing to say,but there was a time when we left home only when we thought there was a direct threat to us. Now, we do it when others are threatened.
I'm not sure what we means in that statement. US military? Ambassadors? Aide missions? We have always been involved beyond our borders to some degree. I will agree that I think we are too involved in many issues beyond our borders. The question is just where that balance should be. I'm somewhere between Ron Paul and current reality. Probably slightly toward the side of current reality though. |
Xdigitalx
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 08:58 pm: |
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You know your old when you see that old man Ron Paul wearing the same polo shirt that you have in your closet.
W>>>T>>>>F>>>>!!!! 
Presidents and Polo shirts do NOT go together. |
Reindog
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 09:00 pm: |
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Nice post, Fahren. Thanks.
I too, don't consider HBE a troll. I disagree with a lot of his positions but I consider him logical, thoughtful, capable of listening and mostly cordial.
-The Other Tom who is mostly cordial  |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2011 - 09:23 pm: |
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"I can see Russia from my house" Tina Fey. Normal humans don't quote Chevy Chase when talking about Regan, either.
Now, I'm not sure that living in Alaska gives you a clear perspective on the country next door. Plenty of folk in Alaska don't even think about Russia. Some do.
I'm pretty sure that thousands of miles away, where I lived, I had a very clear perspective of Russia. The Politiburo has multiple ICBM's aimed at my house. ( Offut Field. SAC hq. )
The leader of the Soviet Union told us that he would bury us. The Soviet union invaded multiple countries, and murdered hundreds of millions of it's own subjects. In my Life. While I watched. My first choice for Army Service was the Fulda Gap.
Sarah Palin annoys me. Fairly hot though. Glinda to Pelosi's Wicked Witch of the West.
Not that that's a reason to vote for her. On that scale..... Milla Jovovich for Prez! |
Cyclonedon
| | Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011 - 12:08 am: |
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Maybe he's not a far enough right radical for the Republican party. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 10:41 am: |
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Chris (Fahren),
>>> In my few years here, I have seldom seen a more thoughtful, careful, and courteous poster than HBE.
In my many years here, I have seldom seen a more disingenuous, pettifogging poster than HBE.
Thanks Ken for the great word, "pettifogging." Yeah, I know, O'Reilly brought it back. I'd forgotten about it.
>>> He has shown open-mindedness and a willingness to concede a point
Would you please show me two such examples? In this very thread, he falsely attributed a statement to Sarah Palin that was designed to belittle. When shown the falsehood, he argued in defense of it, repeatedly. The proper response, one that a thoughtful person would make is one of acknowledgment. There was no such response, just as there was no such response in other similar prior cases. Once his behavior registered on troll radar, I went out of my way to identify specific comments/behaviors of his that were trollish in nature. I feel that I went to great lengths to remain thoughtful. I identified numerous instances of troll-like behavior and counseled that it be avoided. I wasn't the only one who noticed the trollishness.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=4062&post=2100019#POST2100019
>>> you and others have shown little (open-mindedness and a willingness to concede a point).
Please show me two such examples. I take great pride in being fair-minded and open to truth, no matter what it may be. I challenge you to offer an example to support your accusation.
>>> You are being unreasonable,
I feel I've been patient and incredibly reasonable.
>>> and, once again, I feel you are entering into the very no-no land of name-calling and other personal stuff that is prohibited under terms of Badweb use.
Calling a troll a troll or identifying trollish behavior is not name-calling. It is a vital part of custodial duty here. BadWeB doesn't tolerate trolls.
>>> When there is a seemingly un-bridgeable chasm between opposing views, let's agree to let it rest, not to call each other trolls and other, worse insults.
That has never been the case here. Mere disagreement is part of thoughtful debate. The troll engages in endless pettifogging, disingenuousness, diversionary commentary, personal insult, and deceitfulness. When that type of behavior is repeated and blatantly obvious, a troll is proved. Some may not see it. My friend Tom is much more tolerant than I when it comes to trolls. I'd remind him of his one time defense of another well-known troll here. 
>>> If you think HBE is a troll, you have no idea. Hex was not a troll. Rocket is not a troll. Nor am I, nor is HBE.
I agree that you are not a troll. Rocketsprink isn't active enough to be a troll, and when it comes to Buell or Erik Buell Racing motorcycles, he's nothing like a troll. When it comes to political debate, he's more a drive by inflammation, but pretty easy to ignore, often comical in his absurdity. Most importantly, he takes as well as he gives. I respect that. He's also been here a long time.
>>> We, and others, seemingly in the minority here, have very different political views from you.
No problem whatsoever there, other than I think you have been horribly deceived and are wrong to the point of endangering liberty and subverting the intent of our nation's founders. I can quote them if needed.
>>> This board would be a lot more civil if we could agree when we just disagree.
I think you meant to say "agree to disagree"? With that I agree. For instance if you say that you think it's acceptable to murder unborn babies, even later term unborn babies, then I'm happy to agree to disagree with you. It's when you contend that it isn't murder that we'll have a problem agreeing to disagree. I'm simply unwilling to accept that lie. In that case, I have no problem calling you a liar should you adopt that stance.
I agree that we may disagree on political ideology, the intended meaning of our nation's Constitution, the rights of unborn babies, the meaning/definition of "marriage", when taxation constitutes theft, the role of the federal gov't, the personal character of President Obama, and possibly many other issues.
I don't agree that either of us has a right to engage in commentary like this.
>>> I think there are many things you are dead wrong about
You may be accurate. Please share the top three and let's discuss.
>>> and I know it is useless to try to convince you of what I see as the error of your thoughts (although I am often willing to engage in discussions over those topics, if things stay civil). And I am sure you feel the same way about me and my views.
I think the difference is that you are less willing to present facts, history, and logic in support of your views. Most left leaning folks are much more motivated by feelings than by facts. Thus the huge disconnect and the all too familiar turning of discussion into hateful personal attack from the left-leaning. I'm not saying that you do that, but it would be interesting to carry on a formal debate and see where it leads. You choose the topic, abortion, national health care, homosexual marriage, our federal tax system, public education, other?
I can't say for certain what exactly we disagree on, but I'm certainly all for thoughtful discussion as I hope the time I've invested in this post demonstrates.
>>> Before you go and call someone a troll, please read more carefully the recent civil, polite and open-minded exchange and discussion between Tom and Justin, in which they both agree to some of each others' points, and seriously consider and wonder about others, and see if you think either of these two gentlemen deserve to be called a troll:
I'll take your word for it on that particular instance. I can't turn a blind eye to all the other instances where poor behavior and pettifogging were the troll's modus operandi. I'd ask you to recognize the same.
Some help in that regard:
On more than one occasion he refers to himself as a troll and on another even concedes that "I may be a troll", on others he challenged that if he is a troll he should be banned. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 11:53 am: |
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I do concede that my definition of a troll may not agree with yours, mine is likely more broad. I view repeated pettifogging and diversion/deflection of discussion accompanied by falsehood and an unwillingness to directly answer a simple, straight forward honest question as trolling. If it's not intentional, but more a character flaw or internet bravado, it is of no difference to me wrt the integrity of the forum. I REALLY enjoy thoughtful debate; I HATE the other type. It is a waste of time and incredibly disrespectful.
You and I could probably have a great respectful thoughtful debate.
With what I call a troll, that is impossible. History, evidence, repetition of the trollish behavior, inane little nonsense comments point to one thing for me, a troll unwilling to honor our request for thoughtful discussion here. I can't tolerate it. It ruins the place for me. You might run a discussion forum differently. My career as an engineering analyst may shape my attitude. I just have a very low tolerance for pettifogging redirection of discussion and turning the discussion to personal commentary in lieu of the issues. When a person is more concerned about their ego than the integrity of thoughtful honorable debate, they harm the forum and waste my and others' time. There are some very telltale signs such trolls, those who are more concerned with self than actual thoughtful discussion.
Consider the difference between the following two statements and what each indicates of the attitude of the author:
1. "I was wrong about the "do not covet" commandment; thank you for the correction."
2. "I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. You NAILED me on the bible thing."
The first indicates a genuine interest in truth and thoughtful discussion.
The second is self-proclaimed grandeur ("I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong.), and then overblown ego as the issue is cast as a personal contest, rather than a discussion seeking understanding; ("you nailed me...").
Note too that the above "concession" was only obtained after repeated reference to the issue after irrefutable evidence revealed the falsehood. It wasn't until the falsehood became too obvious and repeatedly identified as such that it was finally admitted.
Another just as blatant falsehood, the assertion that Article 1, section 7 of the Constitution applies only to Constitutional amendment, not amendment of subordinate legislation in congress is also an outrageous falsehood, yet not so clearly demonstrated in a single sentence quote. Thus the troll refused to concede that and even continued to assert the falsehood by admonishing to go read case history, when that was undertaken and no such case history found, he admonished to go read a law book. That was outrageously poor and disrespectful behavior and exemplified a blatant unwillingness to concede an obvious point. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 11:59 am: |
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It's fun to imagine a technical meeting among engineers where a design decision is being discussed, and one particular suggestion is rejected for an obvious flaw which is clearly explained, then it's proponent calls the person rejecting the idea a "fascist" or starts expounding on him/her personally. LOL. |
Fahren
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 12:26 pm: |
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I think I had better back away from the quick board, as I do not have anywhere near the time needed to devote to entering into discussions and thinking about replies that others seem to. I would love to - but in order to get into these, you either need to
a) be at a table with folks and have a pint glass in front of you (yes, in this day and age of th'interwebz, people are still better off really talking, face to face), or
b) go all the way, and devote more time than I could possibly come up with to compose and type carefully, thoughtfully and completely ("in for a penny, in for a pound").
I don't want others to see me as taking an occasional pot shot and then ducking for cover. I've already been called out for that by I don't remember who. Unfortunately, due to the requirements of family and work, I don't have time and focus for much more than that. So I will see some of you over at Old School.
-Chris |
Fahren
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 12:29 pm: |
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Having just typed that, of course I know that, being human (last I checked), I will still look in, and still toss out a comment here and there. Big grin : - )
PS my S1W with V&H has so much awesomeness in the sound, I had to go out and just fire her up, just to listen. It's like the dog thread - cure for all that ails you. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 03:26 pm: |
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Much political discussion, here and elsewhere is "my lying sack of crap is better than yours."
While MY opinion is that Barry is more of a jerk than, say Sarah, ( and perhaps less than John ( McCain ) ) others disagree. That's fine. Until they start parroting lies about the political jerk they dislike.
For example, I can with honor and truth point out that Barack seems to have no grades or thesis available to read from his college years. ( I've read Hillary's, It's pretty good. I don't like her conclusions, as it's essentially a book report on Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, with lots of love. ) I Know GW Bush was a "C" student. Barack? no clue.
I could, until a 3 years after Hillary pointed out Barack has never released his Birth Certificate, that we have no proof he's eligible for the job. ( ironic that the clown of politics, Trump! was the one to get Barack's Birth cert. released... maybe ) I can even note that Michelle Obama disturbs me in her use of her children to make political points. How much therapy will they need now that Mom has called them fat on tv?
But I can't say with honesty that Barack beats his wife. It's dishonest to quote an impersonator's joke as being Barack's views. ( though, sometimes SNL may actually reveal a deeper truth in their humor. ) And I have zero proof that Barack sold his soul to Satan.
Pieces of it to GE, Goldman-Sachs, BP, certainly. That's on record. And It's essential to point out that in many cases where Obama took massive bribes from companies that he then rewarded with millions of your dollars, that he has no hesitation to blame those very companies for all the problems I think he himself causes. They still get our money, even while being blamed.... that's a real good reason to offer huge bribes, and it's a pity that us middle & lower income folk just can't afford to.
Proof indeed that being rich makes it easier to get rich. |
Moxnix
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 04:20 pm: |
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O'bama's wife beats him.
(One goof rumor is worth a thousand lies). |
Fahren
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 04:29 pm: |
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Blake, your long, considered post has been "eatin" at me today. I feel as if I backed away very abruptly, and did not give adequate consideration to your thoughts. Sorry for that. I can't really address them all - it would indeed become a full time job, and I don't have a clue how you can deal with all that goes on in this forum!
People of different views can often overlap and agree on common ground. I see that a lot in areas that I consider to be "fiddling, while Rome burns." That is, while the whole system is rigged and going down, I see no point in bickering over blue vs. red politics. Both are lousy, both are in the pocket of Wall Street at the expense of the good people, Rep, Dem and others, of the USA.
Having said that, my take on when real disagreements come up is that there are certain bedrock positions, let's call them "assumptions," or in geometry, they would be "postulates." Things that cannot be proven, but without which it would be impossible to prove a theorem. These are what seem to bring about the difficulty in ongoing discussions.
It's when you contend that it isn't murder that we'll have a problem agreeing to disagree. I'm simply unwilling to accept that lie. In that case, I have no problem calling you a liar should you adopt that stance.
You can reach a point in a discussion where you can, as stated above, call something a lie. And I could say that something you believe is a lie. But then we would be stuck, calling each other a liar, and that is about as far as it could ever go. Your bedrock, my bedrock. Not the same.
I just wanted to let you know that the time you spent in carefully replying to my post did not go unappreciated. These issues are pressing, and I hope Badweb can be as good a meeting place for people of differing, nuanced, and sometimes hard to formulate political and social ideas as it is for all of us who love our Buells. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2011 - 10:29 pm: |
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I like your earlier comment about needing to be sitting at a table in order to effectively discuss some of the topics that arise here. I cannot agree more strongly.
Thanks for the very thoughtful post. It's a pity Justin wasn't as thoughtful as you are. I hope I did a near comparable job in my answers to your original concerns. |
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