| Author | Message | ||
     Honolulu_blue_esq |
I second Trojan's answer to the original poster. The short answer is that this is nothing new. Legislation is almost always (maybe even always) written by a small group of legislatures (sub-committees), approved by a larger group of legislatures (committees), voted on by the full house/senate championed by them before votes in the full house/senate, and then (if approved by the full house/senate) given to the President for signing or veto. I'd agree with the original poster IF subcommittees or even committees had the power to pass the legislation they created without the vote of the full house/senate or the signature of the President, but they don't. The full house/senate must first pass each piece of legislation and then it must be signed by the President to become law. This process is the way it has been for a very very long time, and is not anywhere near a dictatorship. | ||
| Court |
This was one of the FIRST pieces of legislation that has been passed that lacked billions of $$ or unrelated ear marks for stupid stuff. That's a start. Like'em of not . . the TEA Party folks had a huge impact on this. I see the big o is off to Chicago for a birthday party. I like his thinking and am thinking maybe, with a birthday fast approaching, that I too will charge my friends $35,000 a seat to join me to celebrate. Get your tickets fast . . | ||
| Drkside79 |
Don't use logic in here Honolulu doesn't sit well with the natives.  | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Before you guys start the usual lefty socialist BS line here I think a good reality check would be the fact that something like 175 Republicans Voted and Approved the "Super Congress" and 96 Democrats if I recollect. I for one do not buy into there being a right or left or a Republican or Democrat or a Conservative or a Liberal. They are the elite and there are the rest of us. You might mave a nice house, nice vehicle collection, even some money in the bank...but you are still "the rest of us" and the elite are doing their best to widen the gap. The war seems to be on the middle class and Obama and Boehner and Pelosi and that guy that looks like a turtle, and all the so-called "Tea Party" candidates that got elected are waging that war. It's simple minded in the extreme to blame everything on Obama, or Boehner, or the House or the Senate. It's an Us and against Them situation. We will have to vote out over 250 members of congress to clean house. I don't see it happening. I'm not even sure how you change the tide at this point...we've got a President that seems equal parts ineffectual and dictatorial...not a good combination. We've got a Congress that talks out it's ass, but still will not get anything done...not even health benefits to 1st Responders...they can't even get together on an issue that seems so clear cut...health benefits (including cancer) for 1st Resonders to 9/11 Congress is only interested in petty politics and sucking from the trough and taking care of special interests. I don't even know what the President is interested in anymore. Maybe having as many illegal and undeclared wars as possible while the USA infrastructure falls apart. Printing more money is not the answer. Fair Trade between our country and the rest of the world would be a start...let's stop propping up China and their under-priced goods. Let's let manufactures in the US have a fighting chance in the market place. I'm just ranting now...but this Super Congress seems to be just one more step toward tearing the Constitution to pieces...just like the so-called "Patriot Act" that passed the House almost unchallenged (thank you Ron Paul). You can't blame it on one group. It's too easy to just blame Obama...or "socialists" (whatever those are) or Lefties (I think they all left...all we have are Righties now). It's such a huge problem it reminds me of the time the local police decided to blow up a beached whale to get rid of the carcass...and then ended up with chunks of rotting blubber everywhere...it stinks. And it's not going away. | ||
| Court |
The same "logic" that would mean if I don't buy a $400,000 Ferrari today, and opt instead for a $20,000 Mini, that I've "cut spending" by $380,000. Seriously . . if you tried the stuff these guys do in a private business you wouldn't last a month. | ||
| Drkside79 |
Oh i think we can all agree that they are all crooks | ||
| Sifo |
Before you guys start the usual lefty socialist BS line here I think a good reality check would be the fact that something like 175 Republicans Voted and Approved the "Super Congress" and 96 Democrats if I recollect. I for one do not buy into there being a right or left or a Republican or Democrat or a Conservative or a Liberal. They are the elite and there are the rest of us. On this issue I can't agree more. Sometimes one party has it right and one has it wrong. This is a case where they got together to get it wrong. This creates a small group that will be able to write legislation with no input from the rest of Congress and no ability to amend the bills. The only thing they will be able to do is have an up or down vote (probably without a chance to read the damn thing). There was a reason the founders set up a system that makes it difficult to enact sweeping change. It was intended to force debate and promote competing ideas. It also limited the ability for any group or individual to attempt a power grab. Even if you believe that this is being done with the best of intentions, it is a bad idea. It puts too much power in the hands of too few. Most states won't even have representation in the crafting of bills that come out of this committee. That is no longer a representative government. One has to be very naive to to believe that the day wont come that this move will be regrettable. | ||
| Sifo |
Seriously . . if you tried the stuff these guys do in a private business you wouldn't last a month. If you can be successful in private business you don't need to go into politics in the first place. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
When the well runs dry, when the tap is turned off for the recipient class, when the grifters have confiscated all the wealth of the productive to buy complicity from the recipient class and the stolen money runs out, we will see rioting and bloodshed like you have never seen. The middle class will be swallowed up and obliterated. The productive class will have long since been destroyed. What we will be left with will be the "workers paradise" the utopia of the "common man". It will be hell on earth, and they will have no one to blame but themselves. Wonder what the total death toll will be. | ||
| Court |
>>>>If you can be successful in private business you don't need to go into politics in the first place. It's a great "get rich quick" scheme.
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/201 0/09/07/am-how-many-millionaires-are-in-congress/
I'm not sure how many folks here on Badweb are bringing in $660,000+ a year . . just think if we all have to suffer, like the average American, at $120,000. In addition, and someone may need to set me straight here, but you serve one single term and you have a pension, and a damn good one, for life. I recall, during the years I owned my business, not sleeping nights worried about my future. It'd be nice to deal with someone else's money and never have to worry. | ||
| Fahren |
Mountainstorm, I could not possibly have stated it better. So much to rant about - all the while, good, honest Americans are pushed to distraction and are painting themselves blue, red, and who knows what other divisive colors, and led to bicker over false smokescreen issues that keep "the rest of us" (almost everyone in this country) from turning our attention and energy to fight against the taking of America by "them" (an infinitesimal minority). | ||
| Sifo |
"Don't ever let a good crisis go to waste." | ||
| Blake |
Neil (01x1buell), <sigh> i only say that cause i was attacked the other day by SOMEONE they will know who they are ,when i made i comment . and it was not even racist or even close . i made a joke about what someone else said, telling them that it might be racist and then bam SOMEONE went off on me. You implied that a race of people equated to monkeys, and asserted that even using the word "monkeys" is racist.
Joke or no joke, if that isn't racist, I don't know what is. From my view it is racist and despicably so. You may not see it. You may not have intended it. I accept that. However, I and the other custodians are here in part to help folks recognize such problematic commentary. You were not attacked. Your comment was confronted. If you prefer to keep indignantly raising the issue, you'll be shown the door. Here's a hint: This website does not exist solely for you, your ego, or your feelings, so please get over yourself and stop the whining. As to Sifo's comment, most I think understood that he was being sarcastic, at least those of us who are familiar with him understood that. | ||
| Blake |
Back on topic... One reason I like Fox News, Judge Napolitano... Expect the law to go down in flames as unconstitutional. | ||
| Macbuell |
Now, from what I can tell, important legislation can be pushed through Congress using a 12 member panel. I think everyone is jumping to conclusions here. From what I understand the 12 member panel can only write and recommend legislation. It still has to be voted on by both houses and signed into law by the President. No where have I seen anything that indicated they could pass legislation on their own. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Macbuell: I tried to say that up above, but apparently people disagree somehow. | ||
| Sifo |
MacBuell & Honolulu_blue_esq, Do you really see no problem with having 12 people, appointed, not voted to represent the entire United States? Keep in mind that they will have the ability to create a crisis, write legislation in secrecy, present it at the 11th hour telling the people that it's 2,000 pages of salvation for the country that must be voted on this afternoon. No time to read it, you will have to pass it to find out what's in it. There will be the possibility to slip almost anything in a bill that way. And your representative doesn't get a chance to change their vote once they've had a chance to read it. On budgetary matters the constitution puts that responsibility on the Congress. If Congress wants to change how the Constitution works and give their responsibilities to another body, they must amend the Constitution. Bottom line is that it's unconstitutional and dangerous. | ||
| Fahren |
Keep in mind that they will have the ability to create a crisis, write legislation in secrecy, present it at the 11th hour telling the people that it's 2,000 pages of salvation for the country that must be voted on this afternoon. No time to read it, you will have to pass it to find out what's in it. There will be the possibility to slip almost anything in a bill that way. And your representative doesn't get a chance to change their vote once they've had a chance to read it. That sounds like business as usual in Congress, the Fed, Treasury and the White House these days, even without a 12-person panel. | ||
| Sifo |
It is the slope we are on. I thank the Tea Party for making an honest attempt to turn things around and get back to what is written in the Constitution. They are a minority right now, but I have hopes they will make gains in 2012. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Sifo: This is a pretty simple thing I think. If the twelve present something and members of Congress don't have time to read it before the up/down vote, all they need to do is vote down. Also, what clause of the constitution do you think it violates? | ||
| Macbuell |
They don't have to vote for it. And by the way, there are tons of committees in Congress that write and submit legislation for vote all the time. Now, I do think the legislation should be subject to all the same rules as every other piece of legislation but the bottom line is they can't pass any legislation on their own. Of course I don't agree with anything where you have to pass it to find out what is in it. But that has to do with unscrupulous lawmakers more than the structure and purpose of this committee. And, once again, the members do NOT have to vote for whatever piece of legislation put up for a vote. | ||
| Sifo |
Sifo: This is a pretty simple thing I think. If the twelve present something and members of Congress don't have time to read it before the up/down vote, all they need to do is vote down. Also, what clause of the constitution do you think it violates? If only it were that simple. Especially in a real crisis. We are still trying to figure out what the hell was in the health care bill. It violates section 8 of the Constitution where it describes the duties of Congress. It says nothing about giving those duties to other bodies. It also prevents the ability to amend a bill as described in the Constitution. | ||
| Sifo |
I'll vote for anyone running for Congress who promises to vote against any bill coming out of this 12 member super congress. Contact those running in 2012 and ask them if they will take this pledge. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Article I, Section 8. }The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and Post Roads; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Now that we've got that in front of us, how is it violated by assigning twelve members of congress with the responsibility of writing a bill that cuts the deficit, and then presenting that bill to the full house and senate for an up/down vote, and then presenting that bill (if it passes both the house and the senate) to the president to approve or veto before becoming law. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
That sentence was supposed to end with a question mark. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
As I've heard it the Congress wont be able to filibuster whatever the "Super Congress" proposes. Who knows what they can or cannot do because as usual with politics in D.C. the devil is in the details. I do know this much they wouldn't have "invented" this " super Congress" if it didn't allow the politicians to do something they currently can't do. Btw, they already told Ron Paul he won't be one of the twelve. It' going to be a stacked group with a bunch of "yes men" for the political establishment. | ||
| Honolulu_blue_esq |
Bottom line is nothing is going to be signed in to law without a yes vote from the majority of the House AND a majority of the Senate AND the signature of the President. | ||
| Mtjm2 |
YEA !!! What Ferris said ! So if we have a "super congress" , Why do we CONGRESS ?. YES , NO , YES , NO ! The president will be the Tie breaker. | ||
| Sifo |
It says...
It really is that simple. Congress is not a group of 12. I'm curious. For those that think this is a good idea, WHY? Is it better to have less debate on ideas? Is it better to have fewer ideas proposed? Is it better to sidestep the constitution on the issue of filibuster? (another point that has constitutional issues) Is it the lack of an amendment process? (yet another point that has constitutional issues) I do know this much they wouldn't have "invented" this " super Congress" if it didn't allow the politicians to do something they currently can't do. Exactly! And it makes it possible with less transparency. It's nothing but an attempt to grab more power yet one more time. |
